Culture of Death

[dairyfreelife]

So...who wants to find the errors in Lori's new post?

lorialexander.blogspot.com/2012/12/a-culture-of-death.html#idc-container

In my mom's generation, they rarely heard of anyone getting divorced. Couples stayed married until one of them died.

They didn't have to lock their doors or fear their children were going to be abducted and murdered.

The worst problems teachers faced in the classroom were chewing gum and talking too much.

Divorce breeds anger in children

Few parents are raising disciplined adults. They no longer say "no" to their children, teach them boundaries, or discipline them

Homosexual marriage is death to procreation of children.

Purposeful ignorance isn't a hobby, Lori.

[GeoBQn]

In my mom's generation, they rarely heard of anyone getting divorced. Couples stayed married until one of them died.

My great-great-grandmother got remarried (not sure if her first marriage ended in divorce or death of her husband), only for her 2nd husband to "send her back" to her family when her health started failing. She died in 1917.

They didn't have to lock their doors or fear their children were going to be abducted and murdered.

After my great-uncle nearly got kidnapped when he was 5 years old, my great-grandmother wouldn't let him out of her sight for a year. This was in the late 1910's.

[linnea27]

My grandmother divorced her first husband. My aunt had her name changed because she shared the same name- first and last- of a little girl who was kidnapped and murdered and my grandparents didnt like the association. So those things did happen in generations past. What about the Lindburgh baby, Jack the Ripper, and the other kidnappings/murders I have heard about?

[AddieBelle]

My grandparents have been divorced. How does she explain that?

[valsa]

In my mom's generation, they rarely heard of anyone getting divorced. Couples stayed married until one of them died.

My paternal grandmother, my paternal greatgrandmother, and my maternal grandmother all divorced their husbands (cheating, cheating, and abuse/lesbian, respectively)

They didn't have to lock their doors or fear their children were going to be abducted and murdered.

Plenty of people were abducted and/or murdered back then. However, there wasn't 24/7 news coverage at the time to blow the general population's risk way out of proportion.

The worst problems teachers faced in the classroom were chewing gum and talking too much.

Bullshit. One of my mom's middle school teachers got stabbed after school by one of her classmates.

Divorce breeds anger in children

True. But so does living in a home with two people who hate each other.

Few parents are raising disciplined adults. They no longer say "no" to their children, teach them boundaries, or discipline them

While I agree that there seems to be more people failing to discipline their children nowadays, that's likely to reaction to their own parents boarding-on-abusive discipline from yesteryear. My own mother broke the cycle of very physically abusive parenting in her family by basically refusing to discipline her children at all.

Homosexual marriage is death to procreation of children.

Homosexual =/= infertile. And plenty of homosexuals want to raise children.

[Peas n carrots]

Bad stuff happened all the time in those days. Disease, farm accidents, work accidents, fires....these killed thousands upon thousands of children a year. It's not hard to find wayward kids committing horrible crimes in newspapers of the pre modern era days either. You just have to find a few primary sources rather than going on Grandma's recollections. I'd like to add that people in those days tended not to discuss horrific affairs very openly as we do today either.

Divorce...for every instance I can think of kids having a hard time I know someone who is glad they did! And everyone I know who is a child of divorce/broken relationships are glad their parents broke up the long run!

My grandmother divorced her first husband. My aunt had her name changed because she shared the same name- first and last- of a little girl who was kidnapped and murdered and my grandparents didnt like the association. So those things did happen in generations past. What about the Lindburgh baby, Jack the Ripper, and the other kidnappings/murders I have heard about?

Could I throw in the Villisca Ax Murders, when in 1912 someone broke into a family's home while they were asleep and murdered 2 adults and 5 children? No one was ever caught and no motive positively determined.

[lilith]

Well Henry VIII divorced Katherine of Aragon in the sixteenth century, so it's hardly a recent social phenomena

[JenniferJuniper]

My great-great-grandmother got remarried (not sure if her first marriage ended in divorce or death of her husband), only for her 2nd husband to "send her back" to her family when her health started failing. She died in 1917.

After my great-uncle nearly got kidnapped when he was 5 years old, my great-grandmother wouldn't let him out of her sight for a year. This was in the late 1910's.

My maternal grandmother was divorced twice in the 1940's. She wasn't one to tolerate abusive husbands, unlike many of her contemporaries who felt they were stuck once they were married.

My father was kidnapped by a deranged teenager in 1942 when he was 4. He was missing for over a day before he was found hidden in a shed on the boy's family's property.

I know it's common for people to think things were better "back in the good old days", but the fact is human nature is human nature and there have always been people who have done terrible things to other people. The weapons have gotten much faster and we're saturated with news these days, but if one just scratches the veneer of the past a tiny bit, the notion that everyone was happy and lived in harmony in the past quickly becomes laughable.

[GeoBQn]

Also, your fears over your children being kidnapped and murdered probably varied greatly according to race and religion. In 1919, there were race riots in Chicago that were so bad that my grandmother's family had to hide their African-American neighbors in their house--and turn away a mob of white men with baseball bats that were looking for the family.

[Arete]

In my mom's generation, they rarely heard of anyone getting divorced. Couples stayed married until one of them died

Divorce had such a high social stigma for women in her grandmother's generation that most people sucked it up if at all possible. Not to mention fewer women had the education or opportunities to be able to support themselves without a husband. Tool.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I spotted some errors in her thinking! All of it is an error in her thinking.

Divorce still happened back then, it was less often than now, but this doesnt mean the couples were happy together, just stuck together.

In schools children were regularly beaten, murder happened as often as it did now, but didnt have as much news coverage. There was loads of racism, domestic violence was accepted as normal and Lori wouldnt be allowed to have an opinion on this sort of thing anyway cause shes a woman (although maybe with Lori, they have a point, please shut up).

The Bible isnt what makes people be good, if the fear of going to hell is the only thing keeping you from doing whatever immoral stuff you want, you have bigger problems than religion.

Divorce may cause problems with children, but so does seeing their parents fight all of the time, or hit eachother...

People do discipline their children, just cause they arent beating them, doesnt mean they arent letting the children do whatever they want.

Abortion isnt death to babies, most abortions are done when its not even a developed fetus, just a blob of cells that doesnt even resemble a baby. The potential to be life isnt life. Gay marriage isnt the death to procreation of children-sure, some may not have biological children, but what about straight people who dont want kids or are infertile? They also may have children through other ways, like using a surrogate or sperm donor, or even adopt some of the many children in the world who dont have a home. Also only around 10% of the world is gay, and there are 7 billion people in the world, its not like humanity is in any danger of going extinct.

Porn doesnt kill marriage. I know plenty of married people who watch porn, doesnt mean they stop having sex and spend all of their day masturbating. Sure, masturbating is fun, but doing it with another real live human is better.

Television and video games dont trivialise death, not as much as pro life Christians do by comparing the mass murder of children in school shootings, or Jewish people during the holocaust, or people who died in wars, to the "deaths" of a blob of cells that doesnt have any awareness or feelings.

Jesus isnt our only hope. There are loads of non religious people who are moral, and also loads of Christians who show the worst of what humanity has to offer. All that matters is being a decent person.

[debrand]

She is 32 so if her mom might be in her late 50's or early 60's. (I'll be 64 when my youngest hits that age) My own mom was born in 1945 but she was very young when she had me. She grew up in abject poverty. Her alcoholic father sometimes refused to work and beat her mother. He tried to prostitute my teenage aunt for groceries. My mom knew real hunger. Because my grandmother didn't trust her own husband, she was forced to leave her children with unqualified strangers or willing family members so that she could work. My mom and her siblings were sexually abused and mistreated. There was little help for them. The cops just drove my grandfather around until he calmed down and then returned him home.

[JesusFightClub]

My mother is in her late fifties and remembers vividly "Stay away from the bad man in [flat]. He won't do good things to you."

Everyone knew about the bad man and what he liked to do. That was inner city London in the sixties.

[valsa]

My mother is in her late fifties and remembers vividly "Stay away from the bad man in [flat]. He won't do good things to you."

Everyone knew about the bad man and what he liked to do. That was inner city London in the sixties.

Or, if you're in certain families (like mine), there were those one or two uncles (or a grandfather) that got invited to family reunions but everyone knew not to leave alone with any of the children.

[fundiefan]

In the 1930's Charles Lindburg Jr. was kidnapped from his bed. He was later found dead.

My great aunt divorced her husband in the 1930's and remarried in the 1940's.

My grandparents got divorced in the 70's after 27 years of violence and alcoholism. All five kids said 'it's about damn time' and lived without a relationship with their asshole father. They all carry damage from the marriage and their father's abuse, but none has issues with the divorce and his absence from the rest of their lives.

Basically, Lori fails, yet again.

[debrand]

Bad stuff happened all the time in those days. Disease, farm accidents, work accidents, fires....these killed thousands upon thousands of children a year. It's not hard to find wayward kids committing horrible crimes in newspapers of the pre modern era days either. You just have to find a few primary sources rather than going on Grandma's recollections. I'd like to add that people in those days tended not to discuss horrific affairs very openly as we do today either.

Divorce...for every instance I can think of kids having a hard time I know someone who is glad they did! And everyone I know who is a child of divorce/broken relationships are glad their parents broke up the long run!

Could I throw in the Villisca Ax Murders, when in 1912 someone broke into a family's home while they were asleep and murdered 2 adults and 5 children? No one was ever caught and no motive positively determined.

I used to live in Iowa and that case has always haunted me.

The Boy in the Box was a famous case in 1957 of a three year old boy found naked, beaten and dead in a cardboard box. They've never been able to identify him

[debrand]

Or, if you're in certain families (like mine), there were those one or two uncles (or a grandfather) that got invited to family reunions but everyone knew not to leave alone with any of the children.

My aunt was raped by an uncle that everyone knew was a child molester. I've never understood why he wasn't turned over to the cops. The family seemed to protect him at the expense of future victims. In fact, it was sort of on the kids to know to stay away from him. It boggles my mind that my family protected him.

[Emme]

My grandpa has been married four times. He was born in the late 20s (I think?).

My gay uncle is the healthiest guy/most philanthropic guy I know who used to give his old arthritic dog massages when her hips got too bad to walk long distances. He doesn't have kids, but if he did, he'd be a great dad. He's a great uncle.

My grandparents hit my parents. My parents did not hit us. My paternal uncles did hit their kids. We are the most well adjusted, most sucessful, least damaged of all the cousins. Suck on THAT Lori.

[desertvixen]

My grandparents (same age as Lori's parents) didn't get divorced. But they should have, because they spent 20 years hating each other. My grandfather couldn't keep it in his pants, accused my grandmother of being frigid as an excuse for his cheating. They both developed alcohol issues. 2/3 of their kids developed issues. Not to mention learning to cope with what happens when your perfect family dream cracks and you see how ugly people can be underneath.

Just because people did it doesn't mean it was a great idea.

[valsa]

My aunt was raped by an uncle that everyone knew was a child molester. I've never understood why he wasn't turned over to the cops. The family seemed to protect him at the expense of future victims. In fact, it was sort of on the kids to know to stay away from him. It boggles my mind that my family protected him.

My maternal grandmother was molested by her father and uncles. Her brothers went on to molest my aunts and while her brothers did go to prison for sexually abusing children, it was their own daughters and not my aunts. My grandfather on that side was also known to get (what my mother called) "a little handsy" with young girls in the family. I didn't know this until I was an adult and was absolutely horrified because we'd gone on vacation to visit her family when I was 6 years old and we stayed at his house for a couple of weeks. My mother said she kept an eye on him during that time but the fact she would even let him ever have any contact with me as a child remains a huge bone of contention between the two of us. About two years ago there was a blowup on that side of the family and, though we never did get all the details, we suspect it has to do with two of my cousins possibly having been molested by either my grandfather or their father when they were younger. To this day, my mother mourns the fact that her father has died but I'm secretly grateful the old bastard kicked the bucket before my uncle, who lives in their house (taking care of my stepgrandmother), ever had kids. He has two little girls and I shudder to think of another generation being victimized.

[Avalondaughter]

My great-grandfather was an alcoholic. I don't know if he and my great-grandmother officially divorced, but they weren't living together by the time my grandparents married.

My paternal grandparents were divorced. My grandfather up and left my grandmother for another woman.

I have a great uncle who was married four times. Three divorces and his fourth wife outlived him.

ANyway, just because there were no divorces on the books didn't mean couples stayed married. Prior to the 20th century when there were ways of tracking people (like Social Security numbers) it was very easy to simply desert your spouse. You picked up and left, moved to another state, and possibly changed your name. No one was going to find you too easily.

[doggie]

So what about all of the doomsayer Christians. talk about culture of death.

People have always been people. but they used to be even more savage and more violent. as education gets better people become less violent.

[medievalist1980]

Here's the NY Times article about the kidnapping and murder of my great-great-uncle, a 7 year old boy, in 1909. I just realized he went missing a week before my great grandfather's 12th birthday. :(

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.h ... 5B898CF1D3

[slickcat79]

My grandparents (same age as Lori's parents) didn't get divorced. But they should have, because they spent 20 years hating each other. My grandfather couldn't keep it in his pants, accused my grandmother of being frigid as an excuse for his cheating. They both developed alcohol issues. 2/3 of their kids developed issues. Not to mention learning to cope with what happens when your perfect family dream cracks and you see how ugly people can be underneath.

Just because people did it doesn't mean it was a great idea.

My grandparents too, although they weren't quite to that level. They were married almost 50 years until my grandfather died in 1996. They fought all the time, and the only reason they didn't fight more is the fact that they had separate rooms and spent large amounts of time ignoring each other. They hit my father and his siblings with switches, belts, etc. and it messed them all up in different ways. My dad had a lot of anger issues as an adult, his younger brother flat-out refused to have kids at all and divorced his first wife because of it, and his younger sister has become a drug addict who no one has heard from in years.

[Swamptribe]

My mother was a social worker in the 50's. She quit because of the horrors she witnessed. Sexual abuse, physical abuse, neglect. She only ever mentioned it to me a few times. Always to emphasize 'there is no such thing as 'the good ole days'. She also would go on about the nonsense that went on in our lovely upper-class suburban neighborhood when I was growing up. The alcoholism (moms showing up to school events drunk), the affairs going on. Drug abuse. Spousal abuse that everyone was well aware of, but did nothing about. The facade of civility was more important to maintain than keeping some neighbor from beating the shit out of his wife on the weekends.