Out of the Ortho Box

[longskirts]

For those who follow OOTOB, on Ruchi's (public) Facebook she writes that a blog reader told her reading OOTOB has convinced her that Orthodox Judaism is not for her. Ruchi seems disappointed but is taking it in stride; some of the Orthodox commenters are more upset. There's an interesting discussion going on there--shows that some Orthodox Jews can be just as "evangelizing" as Christians, though they usually keep it more under wraps.

 

Her Facebook is linked from the blog. outoftheorthobox.blogspot.com/

[pomology]

For those who follow OOTOB, on Ruchi's (public) Facebook she writes that a blog reader told her reading OOTOB has convinced her that Orthodox Judaism is not for her. Ruchi seems disappointed but is taking it in stride; some of the Orthodox commenters are more upset. There's an interesting discussion going on there--shows that some Orthodox Jews can be just as "evangelizing" as Christians, though they usually keep it more under wraps.

Her Facebook is linked from the blog. outoftheorthobox.blogspot.com/

The difference is that Jews only evangelize to other Jews, not to any random person on the street. It's still fricking annoying and obnoxious, but only a small subset of the population has to deal with it.

[SisiL78]

The difference is that Jews only evangelize to other Jews, not to any random person on the street. It's still fricking annoying and obnoxious, but only a small subset of the population has to deal with it.

Yup, I agree with this. Any Jew proselytizing to non-Jews is probably a Jew for Jeebus or some other faux Jew.

And even a lot of Orthodox won't proselytize to other Jews directly. Instead they do acts of loving kindness as well as ask people to Shabbos dinner or to pray with them. They "advertise" Orthodoxy via example rather than directly.

[longskirts]

The difference is that Jews only evangelize to other Jews, not to any random person on the street. It's still fricking annoying and obnoxious, but only a small subset of the population has to deal with it.

In practice yes, but for some people, the attitude is still there. In this Facebook discussion Ruchi did not say if the reader who wrote to her was Jewish or not, but people still jumped right in saying that she must be making excuses to do what feels good rather than follow the truth.

[Katiebug]

Isn't that what Chabad is all about, basically encouraging less-observant or secular Jews to adopt more devout lifestyles/practices? One of our summer interns a number of years ago was very involved in Chabad at my alma mater and went from Reform to Modern Orthodox in outlook, and decided he was moving to Israel and serving in their military after graduating from college, then would go to grad school/get a job there. It was an interesting progression to see.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Isn't that what Chabad is all about, basically encouraging less-observant or secular Jews to adopt more devout lifestyles/practices? One of our summer interns a number of years ago was very involved in Chabad at my alma mater and went from Reform to Modern Orthodox in outlook, and decided he was moving to Israel and serving in their military after graduating from college, then would go to grad school/get a job there. It was an interesting progression to see.

This is true of Chabad in my experience - which is mostly with university Chabad houses but also with a local community one in MA that I attended for a few years. Chabaniks are the folks some of you may recognize, who stand on street corners on college campuses during the Jewish holidays and call out "Are you Jewish?" to any vaguely-Semitic-looking person they see. (I never get past them! lol) Then they get you to say the holiday blessings and invite you to synagogue. I've been an atheist for years, and I still feel guilty every year when they get me to shake the lulav and etrog (a Jewish Harvest Festival tradition.)

When I was doing the back-to-Orthodoxy thing in my late teens and early 20s, I found myself really put off by the speed at which Chabadniks try to "process" you into the fold asap. I really do wonder, looking back on it, if they have taken some pages out of the Evangelical book. I've always been a lone wolf type, which I guess is not ideal when participating in a heavily community-oriented religion like Judaism, but they were very insisted when I started attending services that I should not just come for service and leave. They wanted me to go to the rabbi's house or to other families for Shabbos lunch, and they even "assigned" (surreptitiously, they thought) a young woman to me who would sit with me in services, gently talk to me about raising the observance standard, and shepherding me to social events after shul. It was not heavy-duty pressure, but I knew that the point of the whole thing was to get me to adopt the Orthodox lifestyle at a quicker pace than I was really comfortable with. Sort of love-bombing lite.

I do have to say, though, that Chabad is not all bad. Unlike other synagogues, you don't have to be a member to attend services or pay for a seat for High Holidays. Everyone can come and nobody judges you straight off the bat if your knees aren't covered or you drove to shul. It's just that when you begin to show interest in being more than a High Holiday Jew, you start to feel some pressure.

[Esther]

Yeah, while I'm sure there are some bad and super-pushy Chabadniks out there, I have to say I don't see them in the same light as hardcore evangelical Christians. For me, going to university in a town with very few Jews, they've been rather great and nobody cares that I use a computer on Shabbat, for example. Many Chabad rabbis really are pretty nice people who want to make Jews feel at home wherever they go. They also don't proselytize as such, but try and "advertise" their level of observance by inviting kids to light Shabbat candles, put on tefillin, etc. So while I do see the parallel to some extent, I still find fundie evangelicals proselytizing a whole lot more annoying.

[longskirts]

Yes, I don't think Chabad houses the best example of the missionary attitude because 1) Chabad emissaries are trained pretty well not to be pushy and 2) they are usually out on their own, far from other Chabadniks, and there isn't the same groupthink that you find in tight-knit, sheltered communities.

[FaustianSlip]

The problem with Chabad is that they present what looks like a safe, nostalgic way of reconnecting to Judaism, but in fact a lot of what they're presenting as halacha (Jewish law) is minhag (community custom) at best. Some Chabad houses are also run in a much more extreme fashion than others- the one I attended in college had gender-separated services, but that was about it. Ditto the one I attended in Japan. The Chabad house local to me here in China, however, is segregated for basically everything but eating, to the point that women were literally left standing out in the rain, unable to hear the Megillah reading on Purim, because there wasn't enough room behind the mechitza for them (no surprise, as that space is tiny and might sit six or seven people comfortably). Chabadniks are absolutely fundies, and it's important to keep that in mind in your dealings with them. They do some good things, but I'm not sure that the good outweighs the bad (and the outright weird, in the case of the whole Rebbe-as-Moshiach thing). I also consider groups like Aish and Chabad a major factor in the massive rightward swing the Orthodox community has experienced in the last ten or fifteen years, which is not, IMHO, a positive development, which contributes to my ambivalence about them.

I posted a comment on OotOB recently discussing how there were some posts that Ruchi has written that had made me feel very hurt and/or uncomfortable, not because she was trying to be offensive but because the bottom line of what she was saying denied my Jewishness (as a non-Orthodox convert), and I don't think anyone is going to feel anything but bothered when someone else denies something as fundamental to who they are. She seemed kind of horrified, actually, that I had never said anything, but it's her sandbox, she's representing her beliefs, so what is there to say? I think Ruchi is relatively even-keeled, though.

[Beeks]

The problem with Chabad is that they present what looks like a safe, nostalgic way of reconnecting to Judaism, but in fact a lot of what they're presenting as halacha (Jewish law) is minhag (community custom) at best. Some Chabad houses are also run in a much more extreme fashion than others- the one I attended in college had gender-separated services, but that was about it. Ditto the one I attended in Japan. The Chabad house local to me here in China, however, is segregated for basically everything but eating, to the point that women were literally left standing out in the rain, unable to hear the Megillah reading on Purim, because there wasn't enough room behind the mechitza for them (no surprise, as that space is tiny and might sit six or seven people comfortably). Chabadniks are absolutely fundies, and it's important to keep that in mind in your dealings with them. They do some good things, but I'm not sure that the good outweighs the bad (and the outright weird, in the case of the whole Rebbe-as-Moshiach thing). I also consider groups like Aish and Chabad a major factor in the massive rightward swing the Orthodox community has experienced in the last ten or fifteen years, which is not, IMHO, a positive development, which contributes to my ambivalence about them.

I posted a comment on OotOB recently discussing how there were some posts that Ruchi has written that had made me feel very hurt and/or uncomfortable, not because she was trying to be offensive but because the bottom line of what she was saying denied my Jewishness (as a non-Orthodox convert), and I don't think anyone is going to feel anything but bothered when someone else denies something as fundamental to who they are. She seemed kind of horrified, actually, that I had never said anything, but it's her sandbox, she's representing her beliefs, so what is there to say? I think Ruchi is relatively even-keeled, though.

I don't usually read the comments on her blog but I'm not surprised she was upset at having offended you. She seems to work extremely hard to never offend anyone (Jewish or not) - almost to a fault, IMO. I think she truly is open to a variety of opinions on her blog - she has the whole spectrum of judaism commenting and even some Christians, from what I've seen. I bet she would welcome your as a conservative convert.

[patsymae]

"The problem with Chabad is that they present what looks like a safe, nostalgic way of reconnecting to Judaism, but in fact a lot of what they're presenting as halacha (Jewish law) is minhag (community custom) at best"

I agree. A lot of Chabad is appealing to nostagia--didn't your bebe and zaidi look like this (sorry about spelling?). There's also the little problem about if the last rebbe was actually the messiah. In general, they are not accepted by many Jews as being the being and end all of jews, but they appeal to people who are nominally Jewish and are insistent.

Also kind of rude to them who aren't. I lived in a largely Jewish community and would have Chabad people bang on my door and wake me up and demand to know if I was Jewish. I guess the good thing was that when I said "no" they would slam my own door in my face, unlike Christians who would go on and on forever.

Any group of people who believe they have a direct connection to the divine and an obligation to impose it on others are full of S**t in my book.

[FaustianSlip]

I don't usually read the comments on her blog but I'm not surprised she was upset at having offended you. She seems to work extremely hard to never offend anyone (Jewish or not) - almost to a fault, IMO. I think she truly is open to a variety of opinions on her blog - she has the whole spectrum of judaism commenting and even some Christians, from what I've seen. I bet she would welcome your as a conservative convert.

Just to be clear, I wasn't even offended, really, because what she was saying on the topic of converts and conversion was, more or less, the standard, Orthodox position. Although I suppose if pressed, I would say that I find the standard, Orthodox position un-halachic and, yes, occasionally offensive, but I agree that Ruchi does go out of her way to state her position in a respectful way and foster discussion from people all over the Jewish spectrum. But, to quote the comment I made on the blog:

"... there's a difference between wanting your kids to be respectful and learn to live with all kinds of people and reading what amounts to an indictment of your very existence. I feel the same way when conversion comes up sometimes (not specifically here, just generally, which isn't a huge shocker with some of the things I've read about converts around the internet). Yeah, it's good to get along and treat each other well, but how do you respond to someone saying, "Your identity and the way you view yourself is false. You're not who you think you are. I've decided that you're this other thing, and I'm assigning you a label accordingly"?"

I think she respects me and respects the decisions I've made, but I don't think Ruchi considers me Jewish, because by her standards, my conversion was not halachic. Now, would she treat me as a non-Jew if I visited her house or something like that? Probably not, because she's good people and knows that that would be hurtful and disrespectful. But given the community in which she lives, I doubt that she would recognize the validity of my conversion. I've never asked and don't plan to, because I don't think that would be productive, and there's not much point in having that conversation.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

About the segregation of genders - yeah, different Chabads do it differently, and some handle it MUCH better than others. At the one which I occasionally attended during undergrad, the division was such that the women couldn't see anything at all that was going on - there was basically the bima (altar), the men, and then off to the side was a room divider ceiling to floor and the women where on the other side. When it came time to bring out the Torah, they stuck it through a tiny whole that they opened in the division and we would all crowd around and tap our prayerbooks as quickly as possible. It felt really degrading to me.

At the other Chabad - the one where I was assigned a watcher angel - the divider was actually a row of tall palm plants. :) The bima was at the front, we could see what was going on, and the rabbi circulated from one side to the other so that everyone could tap the Torah. (This is a big deal - the high point of the service, I think!) But they really were not any more liberal overall, though they were incredibly welcoming and the entire Russian Jewish immigrant community would go there for High Holiday services. Again, totally different deal once you were going regularly!

My two cents on conversions: The Orthodox are shooting themselves in the foot. It's not like converts are banging down the doors. They would do well to accept those who are interested with open arms and accept differences. Rejecting non-Ortho converts is a slap in the face not only to the converts themselves, but also to the Reform and Conservative movements, stubbornly insisting that anybody who does not follow perfect halacha is not "really" Jewish.

A convert who went through the reform process is a hell of a better Jew than me, Jewish to the marrow of my bones, who is an atheist and won't even go to Seder or fast on Yom Kippur.

[FaustianSlip]

Rejecting non-Ortho converts is a slap in the face not only to the converts themselves, but also to the Reform and Conservative movements, stubbornly insisting that anybody who does not follow perfect halacha is not "really" Jewish.

It is, but deliberately so, I think, at least on the part of a significant chunk of the Orthodox leadership (I'm thinking here more of the Orthodox machmir/Haredi crowd than your typical Modern Orthodox shul, a lot of which I think go along with this stuff as much to prove that they're as frum as the more right wing crowd as anything else). The irony, of course, is that the position that you must be completely observant to Orthodox standards doesn't really have a basis in halacha, certainly not before the twentieth century and maybe not even then. The discussion of converts in Jewish religious texts is limited, but the only things listed in the Torah as absolutely required are circumcision (if applicable) and mikvah. The beit din is added later, as a way of ensuring that converts are there of their own free will and without ulterior motives, and Rashi, I believe, says that if someone approaches you and says they wish to convert, you instruct them on some of the less harsh laws and some of the more harsh laws, and if after that they still wish to convert, you convert them, and it's as if they were always Jewish. There's very little historical or halachic precedent, at least that I've ever seen (and I've read as much about conversion as I've been able to find) for the level of stringency demanded by groups like the RCA or the Israeli rabbinate who, incidentally, have also proven their fealty to halacha by throwing aside hundreds of years of Jewish tradition and violating Jewish law in revoking conversions.

Obviously, I'm biased about this particular issue, but while I understand the Orthodox rationale for not accepting Conservative and Reform conversions, it seems to me that they're throwing out a lot more halachic history than they're embracing by insisting that one must be fully Orthodox prior to conversion for that conversion to be valid. And my experience has also been that by and large, the converts I've known have been the most invested in their own Jewish growth, often bringing along born-Jewish but previously disinterested partners or friends as they go along their Jewish path. But hey, in the end, it's their loss. I'm going to daven and learn Torah and the rest whether some guy in a black hat thinks I'm really Jewish or not.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

In practice yes, but for some people, the attitude is still there. In this Facebook discussion Ruchi did not say if the reader who wrote to her was Jewish or not, but people still jumped right in saying that she must be making excuses to do what feels good rather than follow the truth.

I don't know about this blog at all (might have to check it out!) but I will say that as a secular person, while I've not been precisely "evangelized" to by anyone Orthodox, I have encountered the more generic "look at me, I'm so spiritual and my life is so meaningful, even little thing I do from waking to sleeping is dictated by deep spiritual reasons, your life surely must be empty, how do you get on just doing what feels good all the time? I feel sorry for you" judgmental attitude. Unlike with the Christians who will do the "you should join our religion" thing, it's more of a "well obviously this isn't open to you but maybe you should find some religion?" thing which is in some ways even more patronizing.

One of my big problems with the proselytizing types (of any group) is that dividing line they make, that either you're on board with a religion (even if not necessarily theirs) and following 410986 picky rules about everything because it's "soooo meaningful" or else you're just having a pointless life full of nothing but fleeting pleasures of the flesh, with no higher goals or purpose at all.