Miscarrying woman denied an abortion, dies (Ireland) MERGED

[Drina Adams]

I've been aware of this forum's existence but this case has prompted me to register and post.

I'm a new mother in Ireland, who has the unique distinction of also happening to work in the Irish Parliament. I have listened to politicians on all sides pontificate, hand wring and bluster on this issue for many years. Quite simply, they are not afraid of the church, they are afraid of the Catholic vote, of which there is a substantial number. They are constantly lobbied by prolife activists. I suggest those unaware of the Iona Institute have a read of its website: http://www.ionainstitute.ie. One of its key members, David Quinn has access on a constant basis to a lot of legislators in the upper and lower houses. There are several extreme pro life senators, whom are also members of Opus Dei, who sought to stymie legislation on civil partnership and to allow the adoption of children of married people (a constitutional referendum was required and passed for this.)

I am MAD AS HELL about the fact that grey men in suits dare to tell women of my generation what we can and cannot do with our bodies. These men speak of 'respect', 'dignity' and 'valuing life'. BULL. The only thing they value is doing whatever it takes to get reelected in the Irish system which is incredibly parochial and conservation. I am putting good money on this case being quietly allowed to die down, some fudging on ethical guidelines for medical practitioners being introduced and the politicians keeping their fingers firmly crossed that the Irish people will move onto something else to be mad about.

I donated to choice Ireland yesterday. I urge others to have a think about helping the women of Ireland have control over their wombs, because we don't have it. I've a daughter and I feel I have already failed her, we've had 20 years of nonsense from men in suits who believe a pope over their Supreme Court. NO MORE.

[Mice]

As I was reading about Savita, I came across this article that outlined a procedure that used to be used on Irish women instead of C sections because it was supposed to enhance their ability to have children (supposedly a C section would limit that). I've had 5 kids. I threw up after reading the article. It's triggering and graphic and horrible. I've 3 daughters. It scares the hell out of me that this is the kind of health care that they'd get in a state where medical decisions are made by a theocracy. Savita died and a generation of women have lived for years with crazy pain - all to make god happy. I'm just sick over this.

I'm not breaking the link because its Jezebel.

http://jezebel.com/5960663/irish-doctor ... t-miscarry

[Irishy]

I just cannot fathom that there is such concern over the catholic vote. 84% of the population is RC but 4/5 Catholics in Ireland do not attend mass. I get that there are conservative religious politicians like labhras o murchu but they're a dying breed no? And a bit of a laughing stock.

[Aisling]

As I was reading about Savita, I came across this article that outlined a procedure that used to be used on Irish women instead of C sections because it was supposed to enhance their ability to have children (supposedly a C section would limit that). I've had 5 kids. I threw up after reading the article. It's triggering and graphic and horrible. I've 3 daughters. It scares the hell out of me that this is the kind of health care that they'd get in a state where medical decisions are made by a theocracy. Savita died and a generation of women have lived for years with crazy pain - all to make god happy. I'm just sick over this.

I'm not breaking the link because its Jezebel.

http://jezebel.com/5960663/irish-doctor ... t-miscarry

That actually happened to my granny. Twice I think. She also got punched in the face by the midwife and told to shut up screaming.

I'll have to tell her this actually, I think she thought it was just her.

[Aisling]

I just cannot fathom that there is such concern over the catholic vote. 84% of the population is RC but 4/5 Catholics in Ireland do not attend mass. I get that there are conservative religious politicians like labhras o murchu but they're a dying breed no? And a bit of a laughing stock.

Everybody takes the piss out of the priests now anyway, don't they...

<<<< :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

[BravaAmica]

I've been aware of this forum's existence but this case has prompted me to register and post.

I'm a new mother in Ireland, who has the unique distinction of also happening to work in the Irish Parliament. I have listened to politicians on all sides pontificate, hand wring and bluster on this issue for many years. Quite simply, they are not afraid of the church, they are afraid of the Catholic vote, of which there is a substantial number. They are constantly lobbied by prolife activists. I suggest those unaware of the Iona Institute have a read of its website: http://www.ionainstitute.ie. One of its key members, David Quinn has access on a constant basis to a lot of legislators in the upper and lower houses. There are several extreme pro life senators, whom are also members of Opus Dei, who sought to stymie legislation on civil partnership and to allow the adoption of children of married people (a constitutional referendum was required and passed for this.)

I am MAD AS HELL about the fact that grey men in suits dare to tell women of my generation what we can and cannot do with our bodies. These men speak of 'respect', 'dignity' and 'valuing life'. BULL. The only thing they value is doing whatever it takes to get reelected in the Irish system which is incredibly parochial and conservation. I am putting good money on this case being quietly allowed to die down, some fudging on ethical guidelines for medical practitioners being introduced and the politicians keeping their fingers firmly crossed that the Irish people will move onto something else to be mad about.

I donated to choice Ireland yesterday. I urge others to have a think about helping the women of Ireland have control over their wombs, because we don't have it. I've a daughter and I feel I have already failed her, we've had 20 years of nonsense from men in suits who believe a pope over their Supreme Court. NO MORE.

Is there truly an majority of morally conservative Catholics or are they simply a vocal minority?

[Irishy]

Symphisiotomy? That deserves a thread of its own. Also, try googling Dr Neary at our lady of Lourdes hospital. He liked to perform hysterectomies after a c section. Just for the heck.

[Irishy]

Is there truly an majority of morally conservative Catholics or are they simply a vocal minority?

I heard today statistics of about 10% of the population being conservative no-abortion-ever. I'd say that's about right. Extremely vocal lot. They're all over the radio today. All saying how shameful it is that the pro choice lobby is using this tragic case to promote their abortion on demand agenda.

[Irishy]

Everybody takes the piss out of the priests now anyway, don't they...

<<<< :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

Me? Noooooo. Great respect for men of the cloth, me :whistle:

[Drina Adams]

I don't know the percentages, but there is a strong Catholic ethos in the Irish parliament. Each session of parliament starts with a Catholic prayer. There were many calls for civil servants who would be performing civil partnerships to be able to opt out on religious grounds. There's a very strong display of ashes on foreheads every ash wednesday and there's a lot of checking in with Catholic groups by committees. There might be a 10% hardcore conservative vote, but there's also a huge amount of covering one's ass by pandering to the substantial majority of Irish people who self identify as Catholic in speeches on legislation and comments to the press. I heard one member of parliament (we call them deputies) say he was a catholic and had to vocalise the views of his constituents as a catholic-never mind those he represents who are not one would infer.

I can only say I work in the system and if you're not Catholic you're regarded as a bit suspect. I declined to attend a mass and it was a definite talking point. There's also the bizzare fact that the previous government prioritised the introduction of blasphemy legislation, which they regarded as urgent, and didn't see the need to legislate on abortion as urgent. A LOT of Catholic representation took place during the blasphemy law's enactment.

[Becket70]

What the pro-life folks don't seem to comprehend is that, if abortion is outlawed, women will still obtain abortions. I read that 4000 Irish women cross the sea to England to obtain abortions. In the days before Roe v Wade, women had their abortions illegally, sometimes paying with their life. Better the pro-life movement should direct their energies to education about birth control so that the number of abortions can be reduced....not merely done in another county, state or country.

[Coconut Flan]

I wonder what percentage of the anti-abortion group is also anti-birth control? I fear it's a majority.

[YPestis]

I'm surprised that Ireland is such a Catholic country. I always thought the US was the most religious developed nation. Also surprised with such an anti-abortion stance.

My hubby and I saw this on network evening news. While it sounded like abortion was legal for health reasons, the lack of clearly defined guidelines and the extreme anti-abortion environment prevented an earlier termination which could have reduced the risk of complication (that she died from). This is one case where the dying fetus's life truly was placed above the woman's. In America, these issues typically don't come up because the mother's health clause is always paramount, plus the legal climate is such that most doctors would never think to place the fetus' life on par with the mother. I don't think there's any court which would let that one go. I credit that with the country's moderate stance on abortion. I would hate to be pregnant in Ireland.

[BravaAmica]

I heard today statistics of about 10% of the population being conservative no-abortion-ever. I'd say that's about right. Extremely vocal lot. They're all over the radio today. All saying how shameful it is that the pro choice lobby is using this tragic case to promote their abortion on demand agenda.

Are any of these lot expressing any sympathy for Ms. Halappanavar or her surviving family? Or are they merely intoning, "It's God's will, poor dear."? From the news coverage I've read, I've seen nothing asking for abortion on demand. I've seen lots of "abortion if the health of the mother requires it" but not "abortion on demand." Perhaps I just haven't found it yet.

Drina Adams, I can see the Catholic ethos being prevalent in the Dial (sorry, don't know how to do the accent mark) and other political offices. I do recall noticing, when I lived in Dublin, a lot of the Catholic ethos and traditions (for want of a better word) present in many aspects of Irish life. It was simply part of the fabric of things, whether one attended mass or not. And I just want to scream at these old grey men, "how many women have to die or suffer loss of future fertility to placate you guys?!" It's painfully obvious that these deputies do not care about the lives of their female constituients of child bearing age. I know we're in agreement as far as being pro-choice- I'm just exasperated that this woman died for literally no reason. The doctor would have gone to jail and so would she if he'd induced labor. At bare minimum, there needs to be a "health of the mother" clause, not just "life of the mother" for allowable abortion in Ireland. Many, many things can go wrong harm the pregnant mother's health. I don't see Ireland suddenly getting abortion on demand any time soon. I do see abortion allowed if the mother's health requires it. It's heartbreaking that it takes a tragedy of losing a wanted baby and a woman's life for this argument to gain traction. I, for one, appreciate you fighting the good fight from within. Thank you for your work.

I can't think of one place in the US that would let this happen. Not one, even in Mississippi or Alabama or Texas- states that are some of the most conservative places in the Western world (in my opinion). If a woman presented with Ms. Halappanavar symptoms, the doctors would likely induce labor immediately to stave off an infection. Even in places where it's difficult to get birth control (or an abortion), there exists no hospital in the US that would allow what happened to Ms. Halappanavar to happen here. The health and life of the mother trumps the non-viable fetus. (And the threats of lawsuits, media coverage, pissed off internet strangers...)

Ugh. This tragedy is so very angry making.

[J'ean Skirt]

I think the most distressing thing about this was talking with Mr. Bisky and having him say that this is exactly what most pro-life people want to happen. They want women to die. I said I don't believe it, that I believe a lot of pro-lifers are all about the babies and that they don't want women to die.

I don't want to believe him. I really don't. But I'm afraid he's correct.

[BravaAmica]

I think the most distressing thing about this was talking with Mr. Bisky and having him say that this is exactly what most pro-life people want to happen. They want women to die. I said I don't believe it, that I believe a lot of pro-lifers are all about the babies and that they don't want women to die.

I don't want to believe him. I really don't. But I'm afraid he's correct.

I'm afraid I agree with your husband. I wish it weren't so, but pro-life people don't see women as human beings. They see women as vessels that are supposed to have babies and oh, isn't it cute when those ladies get educations and jobs, just like a real person?! Most pro-life people DO want women to die in childbirth or while having a miscarriage rather than get an abortion, any abortion....

...until one of them needs an abortion*. I'm reminded of Mrs. Santorum, who had an abortion to save her life. Only hers was okay. Her and her husband (and their political supporters) don't think anyone else should be able to have the life saving care she had. She is the only person, ever, on the whole planet, who is capable of making that decision.

*: And let's not even get into the anti-choice protesters who end up at the very clinics they protest to get...wait for it...an abortion!

[Sola]

I'm surprised that Ireland is such a Catholic country. I always thought the US was the most religious developed nation. Also surprised with such an anti-abortion stance.

My hubby and I saw this on network evening news. While it sounded like abortion was legal for health reasons, the lack of clearly defined guidelines and the extreme anti-abortion environment prevented an earlier termination which could have reduced the risk of complication (that she died from). This is one case where the dying fetus's life truly was placed above the woman's. In America, these issues typically don't come up because the mother's health clause is always paramount, plus the legal climate is such that most doctors would never think to place the fetus' life on par with the mother. I don't think there's any court which would let that one go. I credit that with the country's moderate stance on abortion. I would hate to be pregnant in Ireland.

Not to be sarcastic or anything, but where do you think all the Irish Catholics in the USA came from?

We (in the UK) get quite a few women coming over from Ireland every year for abortions. There was a case of a woman carrying an anacephaletic (spelling?) baby who wanted to come here for an abortion but Ireland's high court stopped her. I think she came over in the end. Another recent case involved a 14 year old rape victim.

The fucking cardinals and priests have way too much power. Ireland is obviously way more religious than the UK but most people over there do support limited abortion rights. But while the church has its influence, nothing will change. I really hope that some good comes over this latest case. And that pressure is put on Ireland to provide abortion, even if only in limited cases.

[Deleted03]

I'm surprised that Ireland is such a Catholic country. I always thought the US was the most religious developed nation. Also surprised with such an anti-abortion stance.

My hubby and I saw this on network evening news. While it sounded like abortion was legal for health reasons, the lack of clearly defined guidelines and the extreme anti-abortion environment prevented an earlier termination which could have reduced the risk of complication (that she died from). This is one case where the dying fetus's life truly was placed above the woman's. In America, these issues typically don't come up because the mother's health clause is always paramount, plus the legal climate is such that most doctors would never think to place the fetus' life on par with the mother. I don't think there's any court which would let that one go. I credit that with the country's moderate stance on abortion. I would hate to be pregnant in Ireland.

Ireland and Poland both have anti abortions laws (which by the way I think it's a fucking shame that the EU does not make it a requirement!!!!)

Israel is also a very religious developed nation.

[Minerva]

As I was reading about Savita, I came across this article that outlined a procedure that used to be used on Irish women instead of C sections because it was supposed to enhance their ability to have children (supposedly a C section would limit that). I've had 5 kids. I threw up after reading the article. It's triggering and graphic and horrible. I've 3 daughters. It scares the hell out of me that this is the kind of health care that they'd get in a state where medical decisions are made by a theocracy. Savita died and a generation of women have lived for years with crazy pain - all to make god happy. I'm just sick over this.

I'm not breaking the link because its Jezebel.

http://jezebel.com/5960663/irish-doctor ... t-miscarry

I...I don't even know how to react to this...I want to forget I ever read it.

[Lillybee]

Sadly this can happen here for women who go to Catholic hospitals for miscarriage management.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2636458/

[emmiedahl]

I don't think health care providers in the US should be able to routinely refuse to perform any legal procedures, whether we are talking hospitals or doctors. Obviously there will be individual cases where doctors feel an ethical conflict and this is different from saying "I will never perform a therapeutic abortion." Ditto for pharmacists who will not dispense the morning after pill.

If you have a religious objection to standard patient care, then find a new line of work. Or, if you are a hospital, stop taking government funds.

[Nothing2CHere]

I don't think health care providers in the US should be able to routinely refuse to perform any legal procedures, whether we are talking hospitals or doctors. Obviously there will be individual cases where doctors feel an ethical conflict and this is different from saying "I will never perform a therapeutic abortion." Ditto for pharmacists who will not dispense the morning after pill.

If you have a religious objection to standard patient care, then find a new line of work. Or, if you are a hospital, stop taking government funds.

I keep saying this in the Facebook conversation I've been having with my college friend who was "mourning the loss of religious liberty." He responded that, "But the purpose of the hospitals is to minister as the Catholic church is called to do...." I responded that the church needs to find new ways to minister, then.

[Coconut Flan]

That explains one mystery of my life from many years ago. I was tending toward using the Catholic hospital (nicer, more patient friendly type thing) and my OB, who practiced at the huge public hospital and the Catholic hospital both, told me I wasn't a candidate for the Catholic hospital.

I spotted and cramped through almost that entire pregnancy and I'm sure he didn't want to have to deal with an ethics committee if we needed to handle a miscarriage issue.

That is seriously frightening though that women with an inevitable miscarriage have to wait or be transported in pretty much any Catholic hospital.

[Arete]

Twenty years ago a close friend's mother, who was a devout Catholic dying of cancer, made my friend promise that she would never be taken to a Catholic hospital in our area, so when things went down the tubes her life would not be needlessly prolonged. Like I said, a devout Catholic, and she still prefered her hospital care from strictly public hospitals, even if they were more crowded and run down looking.

[luckystone]

This makes me wonder what do they do in cases of pre-eclampsia? Are Irish doctors allowed to deliver a baby that hasn't reached viability or where the odds of survival are low due to prematurity? I'm not a doctor, but after having developed pre-eclampsia during one of my pregnancies I was under the impression that if medication and bed rest didn't lower the mothers blood pressure the only option left to save her life was to deliver the baby.

What is maddening about this case is that they totally put the mother's life in a secondary position to that of a dying fetus. That poor baby didn't stand a chance after her water broke, but the mother did. I can't believe they did nothing after she started showing signs of infection even when it should have been clear that the mother's life was now in danger they still waited until they could not find a fetal heartbeat the next day. I really would love to know how often they checked for a fetal heartbeat and how often they checked her vitals there seems to be a malpractice case there.

Yes, I don't understand what happened. Was there some element of medical malpractice as well - how come they couldn't prevent/treat the septicaemia in any other way? (I don't know much about this, so there might be a simple explanation, but it seemed a bit odd to me.)