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Drivers licenses vs. marriage licenses for fundies


gustava

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I fail to see how getting a marriage license is yoking yourself to the government. I got married earlier this year, we went to the courthouse, filled out a form stating we were both of legal age and consented, paid the fee and came back a month later and said our vows to each other. We didn't pledge alleigance to the government, didn't have to agree to tracking or submit to testing. Not sure how it works in the US but the government has hardly involved here, other than issuing us with a piece of paper to say we were married.

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Oh the Wilkinsons (of Jerusalem Song and Vision O'YHWH fame) were definately anti birth certificates too, I remember that.

I didn't know that. I would have thought their last two kids would have though, as they were born in hospital. Anna is due to have their 7th or is it 8th baby soon too.

I wonder if birth certificates have to be produced for the Alaskan Permanent Fund? They get shitloads from that.

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....(birth certificates)

I would have thought their last two kids would have though, as they were born in hospital.

Not necessarily - I don't know about Alaska, but at least in the UK the hospital has nothing to do with it. They give you a discharge note and a letter to give to your doctor but normally you're expected to take responsibility for the registration yourself.

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Not necessarily - I don't know about Alaska, but at least in the UK the hospital has nothing to do with it. They give you a discharge note and a letter to give to your doctor but normally you're expected to take responsibility for the registration yourself.

In New Hampshire at least, the hospital automatically does it for you. All I contributed to it was the name. (And the baby.)

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I can't imagine it ever mattering for a straight couple in a hospital - it matters for gay couples because homophobic or blood family members deny them visitation rights. But I can't imagine a hospital checking to see if someone was legally married unless they had a reason of bigotry (same-sex couple or a couple that was visibly of different races or nationalities).

It's not just homosexual couples that deal with this, although due to very unfair laws that deny homosexual couples the basic right to marry and that sadly many families disapprove of these relationships, it tends to be seen in those cases often. Frankly, legal next-of-kin is legal next-of-kin for any unmarried couple - gay or straight. If parents or legal next-of-kin who disapprove of the relationship find out about the hospitalization and the patient isn't awake or competent to make decisions and the legal next-of-kin decide that the partner is to be barred from visitation, that's going to be an issue no matter if the relationship is gay or straight. There have been some epic court battles over remains where the deceased was in a straight but unmarried relationship (see the disputes over James Brown's remains or Kirby Puckett's remains for a couple of specific examples).

I hope these people have made wills, though. Where the property goes can be a big problem when it's not specifically dictated and the emotional next-of-kin is not the same as the legal one.

Edited for typo.

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It's not just homosexual couples that deal with this, although due to very unfair laws that deny homosexual couples the basic right to marry and that sadly many families disapprove of these relationships, it tends to be seen in those cases often. Frankly, legal next-of-kin is legal next-of-kin for any unmarried couple - gay or straight. If parents or legal next-of-kin who disapprove of the relationship find out about the hospitalization and the patient isn't awake or competent to make decisions and the legal next-of-kin decide that the partner is to be barred from visitation, that's going to be an issue no matter if the relationship is gay or straight. There have been some epic court battles over remains where the deceased was in a straight but unmarried relationship (see the disputes over James Brown's remains or Kirby Puckett's remains for a couple of specific examples).

I hope these people have made wills, though. Where the property goes can be a big problem when it's not specifically dictated and the emotional next-of-kin is not the same as the legal one.

Edited for typo.

This. When my daughter was born, my hubby and i weren't married, just living in sin, and I had to sign a shit ton of papers when I went into the hospital for the first bout of pre-term labor so that my husband/then boyfriend could make medical decisions for me and the baby if things went downhill. Every time that I went in during the pregnancy, I had to initial and date the papers again. It was a PITA! Because we weren't married, he wasn't the legal father of our daughter until he signed a ton of papers claiming it. it was insane. When our youngest was born 2 years later (and we were married) there as a lot less paper work, LOL).

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Reading about Jill Duggar's speeding ticket made me wonder about those fundies who don't get a marriage license because they feel it isn't the purview of guvment, especially a guvment that allows the ebil gays to marry, to 'allow" them to marry.

Do they get a driver's license?

That's a good question. I would imagine it depends on how anti-government/off the grid they are.

I would bet, though, that many of them have driver's licenses simply because driving without one is more likely to cost money and cause trouble, in the short run, than not having a marriage license.

Can't let one's principles get in the way of the almighty dollar, after all.

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I think the marriage license thing was discussed a while back...

But, I honestly and truly hope that one day they will be in a situation where not having a marriage license will come to haunt them. For instance, if there is an inheritance that they miss out on or if one of them is in a hospital and the spouse is the only person available but having no legal way to get into the hospital room and/or make decisions.

Something, anything so it bites them in the butt. These a-holes need to pay for their name calling, hate, and willful defiance.

Also, I often wonder how many children are born into these families and never documented. Home birth, no real doctor for pre-natal care, and no school means that these kids can be born, live, be terribly abused, and die without anyone knowing about them. Imagine what you can do to a child that doesn't exist on the government's radar? They need never not be taught to read and can be locked up and treated however poorly their parents want. Add to that the cloistered and rural existence they lead and you have to wonder how many kids are living in a hell because of the doctrine preached by the Pearls and other likeminded idiots.

That is such a scary thought, if someone was to have a child and not get them a birth certificate and keep them hidden away from others like fundies do, they wouldnt have to educate them, and if they "trained" a child to death, nobody would ever find out.

I think it goes along with the other things they do to keep their family hidden, like not sending them to school and keeping them away from other people who dont share their beliefs, and being wary of the government, science and doctors and how a lot of them tend to live in small towns or out in the countryside. If they hide their kids, nobody would ever know that theyve been beating them.

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Not necessarily - I don't know about Alaska, but at least in the UK the hospital has nothing to do with it. They give you a discharge note and a letter to give to your doctor but normally you're expected to take responsibility for the registration yourself.

As far as I was aware, births were registered in the hospital in the USA. BTW, I'm in the UK ;)

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Reading about Jill Duggar's speeding ticket made me wonder about those fundies who don't get a marriage license because they feel it isn't the purview of guvment, especially a guvment that allows the ebil gays to marry, to 'allow" them to marry.

Do they get a driver's license?

Nope. It encourages a spirit of independence, and we all know how much God hates independence (unless it's American independence from the British umbrella of protection.)

groups.yahoo.com/group/BoldChristianLiving/message/59

I believe Numbers 30 indicates that daughters are to be more protected than sons. When Bethany approached the age when many young people acquire permits to learn to drive, I began hinting that she would soon be driving. She wasn't particularly excited, but was prepared to follow my leadership. My wife appealed to me, however. She questioned whether

it is truly healthy for young ladies to drive. She noted that when she "got wheels" she began displaying much more of an independent spirit from her parents. She questioned whether this was healthy.

It's particularly important because it keeps his precious daughter from ever being called for jury duty.

I obviously share your conclusion that young women serving on a jury is a very vulnerable, potentially damaging experience we should be able to shield them from.

It also keeps those prying gubment officials away.

The attorneys at the Home School Legal Defense Association have repeatedly warned that homeschooling is the best way to buffer your family from bogus "child abuse" or "child neglect" charges. The more visibility your children have in the system, the more vulnerable your family is to inappropriate intrusion.

Who was it who said these kids can grow up completely unknown? It's horrifying to think of.

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I'm not in the US so I don't know exactly how your laws work but I can see so many problems that can arise from not having a birth certificate.

# You need a birth certificate to get most other forms of identification such as photo id, passports or drivers licences. I'm assuming if you don't get a birth certificate you also probably don't bother getting any of these. However, you need at least two of these to open a bank account. Is it possible to function without a bank account? Most jobs pay directly into bank accounts. Maybe fundies all work cash-in-hand but if so, I question their honesty in terms of paying taxes.

# Being a missionary is a big thing in fundy land. How do you go about travelling overseas if you don't have a birth certificate or passport?

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As far as I know, most hospitals in the USA take care of the birth certificate for you, though apparently it can take a bit. I remember my mom saying she was surprised that she had no trouble getting into Canada with my little brother, because he was too young to have a birth certificate.

I thought that was weird, I thought babies just came home with their birth certificate.

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As far as I know, most hospitals in the USA take care of the birth certificate for you, though apparently it can take a bit. I remember my mom saying she was surprised that she had no trouble getting into Canada with my little brother, because he was too young to have a birth certificate.

I thought that was weird, I thought babies just came home with their birth certificate.

No, there is processing time for the town clerk. We came home with a copy of the application for the birth certificate, but the actual certificate was available several weeks later.

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Along the same lines as being anti-birth-certificate, my family knew plenty of people in the '90's who were strongly opposed to getting social security numbers for their children. This would be even more damaging, because then they couldn't even get a job! Thankfully after a few years my parents saw that this absolutely would not work and registered their stack of younger children. As far as I know, every one of those families has since gotten their children SS numbers. It's just too impractical.

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I know a few people who are/were against SSNs, birth certificated, driver's licenses, and any form of government ID,. Most of them were very hardcore anti-government types who thought they could totally stay off the radar. Usually, the lack of driver's license and ID is what ended up getting them the attention they were trying to avoid.

Most ended up relenting and getting those things once they realized it was easier to survey with a real job and the paperwork that it took to get and keep one.

eta: The first time I hear the no marriage license thing in relation to religion was from "Pastor" Matt Trewhalla, who was really big in the militia movement and linked to by some of the more radical dominionists (ie, the Christian Exodus guys in SC). I just googled him to check the name spelling, and now apparently has his own church and is active with the more extreme anti-abortion crowd as well. It makes since that the crazy is being spread from one group to another.

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I know a few people who are/were against SSNs, birth certificated, driver's licenses, and any form of government ID,. Most of them were very hardcore anti-government types who thought they could totally stay off the radar. Usually, the lack of driver's license and ID is what ended up getting them the attention they were trying to avoid.

Most ended up relenting and getting those things once they realized it was easier to survey with a real job and the paperwork that it took to get and keep one.

eta: The first time I hear the no marriage license thing in relation to religion was from "Pastor" Matt Trewhalla, who was really big in the militia movement and linked to by some of the more radical dominionists (ie, the Christian Exodus guys in SC). I just googled him to check the name spelling, and now apparently has his own church and is active with the more extreme anti-abortion crowd as well. It makes since that the crazy is being spread from one group to another.

This is pretty much why I started the thread. Do those believers in "covenant marriage" eschew other forms of guvmint regulation.

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Actually, I know we've been talking about him recently, the thing that I remember most from watching Hovind's videos in class is that he said that no one should get a marriage certificate, because "all that means is that if the state doesn't agree with the way you're raising your kids, the state can take them away." He said that a marriage certificate doesn't actually DO anything.

I believed that for a long time. Now, I'm really not sure what I believe, but it doesn't matter anyway because at this time I have no desire to marry.

I'm a Christian, and as far as "Render to Ceaser that which is Ceaser's," yes that verse COULD be interpreted that way, but there are a lot of other verses in the bible saying that you need to obey the laws of the government. I think there are better verses to use. Romans 13:1, for example: "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities." There are more than this, however, this is just an example.

I think, and this is just my opinion, that if the law of the land says that you legally can not get married, that is the only reason you can still call yourself "married" if you're not legally married. Example: Gay marriage. (and, back in the day, interracial marriage. Also, slaves were not considered legally married. But if someone tried to suggest to me that because of this the slaves were living in sin, I would be livid.)

There is no reason for these "Christians" to not get a marriage license. Well, no REAL reason, anyway.

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Thankyou Trynn. That is a much better quote than the one I used. I am sure there are many more in there - I just don't know my Bible well enough. The fundies would be horrified!

(Off topic but I did get a good laugh when Michelle Duggar claimed she was currently learning Matthew 5-7 off by heart. I can't see the point in learning the Bible off by heart but I looked it up to see what she was learning. Guess what - I actually know those three chapters off by heart! Sing your way through the musical Godspell and you've got it covered.)

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