Drivers licenses vs. marriage licenses for fundies

[gustava]

Reading about Jill Duggar's speeding ticket made me wonder about those fundies who don't get a marriage license because they feel it isn't the purview of guvment, especially a guvment that allows the ebil gays to marry, to 'allow" them to marry.

Do they get a driver's license?

[hoipolloi]

Using Michael Pearl's "logic" (nogreaterjoy.org/articles/the-wedding/), the answer should be "no."

None of my daughters or their husbands asked the state of Tennessee for permission to marry. They did not yoke themselves to government. It was a personal, private covenant, binding them together forever—until death. So when the sodomites have come to share in the state marriage licenses, which will eventually be the law, James and Shoshanna will not be in league with those perverts.

teh ebil gays can get marriage licenses -> therefore, my children won't get marriage licenses.

teh ebil gays can get driver's licenses -> ...

[PraiseSeitan]

I know some well known SAHDs don't have driver's licenses and do drive, but I'm not sure if that's also true of the menfolk of the family. In their case it might be their gawdly headship's phobia of zomg statism and survivalist leanings.

[terranova]

Using Michael Pearl's "logic" (nogreaterjoy.org/articles/the-wedding/), the answer should be "no."

teh ebil gays can get marriage licenses -> therefore, my children won't get marriage licenses.

teh ebil gays can get driver's licenses -> ...

Does that mean they're not legally married then?

I think the Jerusalem Song people from Alaska did a post about not getting officially married for the same reasons. These were the people terrified the gubmint was tracking people through their vaccinations and the like. :roll:

[linnea27]

what about birth certificates? There is a terrifying thread on another site I read once about the evils of getting birth certificates for your children, which is why I wonder...

[Miggy]

"Render unto Caesar", anyone? The quote refers to paying taxes but we always understood it to have a wider meaning of following the laws of the land as well as the laws of the Christ. (The context does suggest the wider meaning, as it is the pharisees trying to trap Jesus.) Of course, I am a Leftist-loony-not-proper-Christian according to my fundy-in-laws, so what would I know.

The Botkins are anti-marriage licences. Senior Botkin wrote a long, very boring blog about it when Junior Botkin married Nadia. The state had no business issuing marriage licences, it is between the couple and God, etc. I got bored and didn't finish reading it because I have heard the same lecture from my sister-in-law and several cousins-in-law. I will have to go back and find out what their "beliefs" are about drivers licences....

[terranova]

what about birth certificates? There is a terrifying thread on another site I read once about the evils of getting birth certificates for your children, which is why I wonder...

Oh the Wilkinsons (of Jerusalem Song and Vision O'YHWH fame) were definately anti birth certificates too, I remember that.

[YPestis]

Uhm....don't they HAVE to get driver's license to drive? Aren't they afraid they may be caught driving without a license? The marriage license thing is kind of meh to me. If they feel marriage should not be the government's business, then that's their choice. They won't get some of the benefits as a married couple but most people like that probably try to live "off the grid" as much as possible anyway. I had a friend who made the argument it's not the government's business to tangle in marriage anyway. Perhaps this is the one thing he has in common with fundies! He states that the gov't should just focus on who is dependent on whom (i.e person 1, 2, 3 is financially dependent on husband) rather than on whether then trying to decipher who is married, who is living together etc. I'm starting to think that may not be a bad idea.....

[rock_girl]

I know some well known SAHDs don't have driver's licenses and do drive, but I'm not sure if that's also true of the menfolk of the family. In their case it might be their gawdly headship's phobia of zomg statism and survivalist leanings.

Really? Are you up for naming and shaming?

[hoipolloi]

Does that mean they're not legally married then?

Yes. Depending on the state, they may not be in a common-law marriage either (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common-law ... ted_States).

This came up previously here or on the old board WRT Gabe & Rebekah Pearl Anast, Mike & Debi's oldest child. They reside in a state that doesn't recognize common-law marriages (NM) and have, at last count, 7 kids but no marriage license.

[JesusFightClub]

Does that mean they're not legally married then?

I think the Jerusalem Song people from Alaska did a post about not getting officially married for the same reasons. These were the people terrified the gubmint was tracking people through their vaccinations and the like. :roll:

That's one thing I know about the inner workings of government - it's far more confused and far less malicious than fundies believe.

I wonder if they are projecting how they would be in government on to the actually existing gov't of the day?

[terranova]

That's one thing I know about the inner workings of government - it's far more confused and far less malicious than fundies believe.

I wonder if they are projecting how they would be in government on to the actually existing gov't of the day?

Agreed. There's no government on earth that is that organised to track every single one of it's citizens from birth to death. Plus, I don't think they care all that much if some nutjobs want to live off the grid, as long as they're not planning on blowing something up or stock piling weapons.

Yeah, I do think they're probably projecting their own "ideals" onto the current govt. I'm sure if the fundies ran the show there'd be a lot more actual tracking going on. I'm thinking yellow stars, purple triangles...

[pixydust]

Agreed. There's no government on earth that is that organised to track every single one of it's citizens from birth to death. Plus, I don't think they care all that much if some nutjobs want to live off the grid, as long as they're not planning on blowing something up or stock piling weapons.

Yeah, I do think they're probably projecting their own "ideals" onto the current govt. I'm sure if the fundies ran the show there'd be a lot more actual tracking going on. I'm thinking yellow stars, purple triangles...

ITA, I think that if the fundies ran things there would be no marriage between ethnicities, religions (even Catholic to protestant, or the like), and all non whites would be at a huge disadvantage in some ways (higher taxes, less protection under the laws, etc) and forget purple triangles, gays would be dead.

[happy atheist]

None of my daughters or their husbands asked the state of Tennessee for permission to marry. They did not yoke themselves to government. It was a personal, private covenant, binding them together forever—until death. So when the sodomites have come to share in the state marriage licenses, which will eventually be the law, James and Shoshanna will not be in league with those perverts.

But doesn't this make them in league with those perverts now? Plenty of same sex couples consider themselves married in their hearts, and see it as a lifelong bond.

And does this mean that Michael and Debi are in league with the perverts? Maybe they should get divorced so that, once those darn sodomites get full rights, he won't be sullied.

[BlackHawk]

But doesn't this make them in league with those perverts now? Plenty of same sex couples consider themselves married in their hearts, and see it as a lifelong bond.

And does this mean that Michael and Debi are in league with the perverts? Maybe they should get divorced so that, once those darn sodomites get full rights, he won't be sullied.

Yeup, the partner and I live in a state without marriage for gays and we consider ourselves married. So technically James and Shoshanna are in the same league as the Partner and me! Welcome to the gay side of life!

edited once: I swear I can speak English! Horrible typos needed to be fixed.

[hoipolloi]

The Pearl offspring could be said to be shacking up since they are co-habiting with sexual partners, and reproducing, without having marriage licenses. They are not legally married no matter what Mike Pearl says about his covenants or contracts.

ATTN Mike Pearl: here's what the Bible says about shacking up - http://www.openbible.info/topics/shacking_up

You're welcome.

[Flummoxed by fundies]

Another example of fundie pretzel logic. No license 'cos I'm above asking the government for permission.. But I sure enough want the benefits! No marriage license means no spousal social security benefits. No birth certificate means no standard deduction against federal income taxes. No driver license can be a felony in some states. Etc.

[emmiedahl]

Another example of fundie pretzel logic. No license 'cos I'm above asking the government for permission.. But I sure enough want the benefits! No marriage license means no spousal social security benefits. No birth certificate means no standard deduction against federal income taxes. No driver license can be a felony in some states. Etc.

The Pearl children deal with the bolded by simply not working. Hopefully the parents make enough off of their child abuse manual to support themselves and their children in old age!

Seriously, the Pearls have no high school diplomas or degrees (I think one of them went to a small unaccredited Bible College of the Holy Church Basement), they are living in sin with multiple raggedy children, no one has gainful employment.... I am surprised anyone cares what they say about child-rearing because clearly they are doing it wrong.

[Guest Anonymous]

Being married without a marriage license is pretty common here, in Sweden.

[AnnieC 305]

ITA, I think that if the fundies ran things there would be no marriage between ethnicities, religions (even Catholic to protestant, or the like), and all non whites would be at a huge disadvantage in some ways (higher taxes, less protection under the laws, etc) and forget purple triangles, gays would be dead.

I agree, although Godwin's Law has been tripped here. I think they are projecting exactly what they would do if they or their leadership took control. It's the same when they say that without Big Poppa God looking over their shoulder all the time they'd be out raping and pillaging and plundering, or that if you don't cover up every inch of skin every man is going to be looking at you with lust and trying to jump you or if the ebil gays marry then every marriage will suddenly dissolve and people will run to the other side. They project exactly what they would do without the strict rules onto others because they haven't developed the cognitive skills to realize that the people outside their circle are not like that.

Now everyone remember to go vote on Tuesday.

[rezski44]

If they don't get legally married don't they run into inheritance and hospital visitation problems? The arguments for gay marriage often reference how parents can keep the partners apart in the hospital for instance. As well as battles over property and child custody.

[Georgiana]

If they don't get legally married don't they run into inheritance and hospital visitation problems? The arguments for gay marriage often reference how parents can keep the partners apart in the hospital for instance. As well as battles over property and child custody.

In some States, yes. They can also run into problems with benefits and compensation/restitution in legal matters. Really though, the issue is for the "wife', since with or without a marriage license, your children are your children. So I can't see there ever being issues with children inheriting or being denied medical coverage, etc.

However, in some States, nearly everything (with the exception of maternity rights) could be denied to the woman which honestly, I think is semi-intentional because it makes the wimmins stay in their place or else.

[SisiL78]

I think the marriage license thing was discussed a while back...

But, I honestly and truly hope that one day they will be in a situation where not having a marriage license will come to haunt them. For instance, if there is an inheritance that they miss out on or if one of them is in a hospital and the spouse is the only person available but having no legal way to get into the hospital room and/or make decisions.

Something, anything so it bites them in the butt. These a-holes need to pay for their name calling, hate, and willful defiance.

Also, I often wonder how many children are born into these families and never documented. Home birth, no real doctor for pre-natal care, and no school means that these kids can be born, live, be terribly abused, and die without anyone knowing about them. Imagine what you can do to a child that doesn't exist on the government's radar? They need never not be taught to read and can be locked up and treated however poorly their parents want. Add to that the cloistered and rural existence they lead and you have to wonder how many kids are living in a hell because of the doctrine preached by the Pearls and other likeminded idiots.

[hoipolloi]

Also, I often wonder how many children are born into these families and never documented. Home birth, no real doctor for pre-natal care, and no school means that these kids can be born, live, be terribly abused, and die without anyone knowing about them. Imagine what you can do to a child that doesn't exist on the government's radar? They need never not be taught to read and can be locked up and treated however poorly their parents want. Add to that the cloistered and rural existence they lead and you have to wonder how many kids are living in a hell because of the doctrine preached by the Pearls and other likeminded idiots.

QFT. Strikes me that these people shut themselves and their families away precisely because they do have ugly & terrible things to hide.

[Rosa]

I can't imagine it ever mattering for a straight couple in a hospital - it matters for gay couples because homophobic or blood family members deny them visitation rights. But I can't imagine a hospital checking to see if someone was legally married unless they had a reason of bigotry (same-sex couple or a couple that was visibly of different races or nationalities).