Dear Prudence and the Insecure Fundie Virgin

[Shina]

This severely creeps me out as a general slut-shamey attitude. AND it reminds me unpleasantly of my fundie-lite past. Also I love that Prudie adds some of her own snark to the mix.

"Q. Sister's Being Shamed: My sister is marrying a sexually conservative man, which is to say he "saved himself" for marriage and she did not. My sister has always been honest that she had a number of sex partners (more than 20, less than 30) with her fiancé. He always seemed to understand and not care. Then his parents insisted that the couple undergo premarital counseling at their church, and my sister's fiancé told the pastor who counsels them that my sister had premarital sex. The pastor became very judgmental. He suggested my sister had been raped as a young woman because she liked sex, and liking sex was "often" an indication of being raped. He asked my sister's fiancé whether or not he could be happily married to my sister knowing about her multiple partners. Then he brought the fiancé's parents in and told them. Now everyone is acting like my sister is lucky such a stand-up guy would want to marry her, and she's miserable. She fears breaking the engagement though because she loves her fiancé and thinks this is a phase. She wants my support, but because I think her fiancé and the pastor are so gross, I'm struggling to be supportive of her marriage. Please help."

:evil: What an assnugget!

"A: Oh, what a wedding night that will be. There's your sister who knows her way around a mattress and is used to experienced, sophisticated lovers. And there's her new husband trying to figure out what to do with the equipment. I can understand that after a randy youth your sister is ready to settle down, but I think she's having an overreaction if she thinks the way to go is to enter into a situation in which seeking sexual pleasure is a sign of a previous assault. This doesn't sound like a phase. Instead it seems that if your sister marries her fiancé she will always be considered a marked and damaged woman. Tell her the truth. Say you will always be there for her no matter what, but you are very concerned that the punitive judgment being rendered by her fiancé, his family, and church is not a phase but the start of a long, unpleasant siege."

[gustava]

I saw this morning. Sister needs to run like hell, since that's the only thing she'll if she marries this prick.

[doggie]

preacher is so full of crap. What happens if hubby thinks he is the boss? how is that going to work in the bedroom? not very well when he is fully ignorant.

[RosyDaisy]

The woman in question needs to dump the finace and run for the hills. Otherwise, she will forced to become a fundie wife/helpmeed and be reminded of her "baggage" all the time.

[nokidsmom]

And if she tries to show him a few things, that is only going to be further proof of her being a damaged woman. :naughty:

And what's with bringing the fiance's parents into the mix. It's none of their business but because of the jerky pastor, now they know some very private details that should only be between the sister and fiance. So in addition to seeing her as having baggage, they are privy to this information and you can bet they are going to have their nose constantly in this couple's business.

What the pastor did was bad enough but the worst of it was that fiance didn't stand up to him and say no. That's the biggest red flag of all.

I hope the sister reconsiders going ahead with this marriage.

ETA: Actually the biggest red flag is the fiance allowing that the parents be involved in this at all.

[Just_Jane]

The biggest problem for me is that the fiance let the pastor tell HIS parents. That is incredibly inappropriate and he should have said no that it was a personal matter between just the couple. I see it as the fiance not standing up for the woman he claims to love when the pastor did the shaming and then further going on to tell his parents. Not that women need their battles fought for them but it's nice to know the the person who loves you has your back. I read that it was the parents insistence that they do pre-marriage counseling at their church. So did the fiance want the pre-marriage counseling or does he do what his parents say? That sort of sets the tone and role for the in laws in the marriage.

[Linnea]

He suggested my sister had been raped as a young woman because she liked sex, and liking sex was "often" an indication of being raped.

There are not enough faces or palms in the universe to express the idiocy of this idea.

Also, the fact that the fiance's parents are the ones who insisted that this church be involved, and he, although presumably an adult, doesn't tell them to shove it? This suggests that it's more than a "phase".

[Childless]

If the sister is really in love with her fiance, then she needs to do the following:

1. She needs to sit down with the fiance and explain how she feels. She needs to tell him that she does not agree with the disrespect she was shown and will not live the rest of her life being shamed and regarded as less than him. She needs to lay down the law. Either the family treat her with respect and kindness, or she walks. No one should be made to feel guilty about enjoying sex. And, as her soon to be husband, he should be standing up for her and telling his family how it will be. It seems the fiance is not a very strong person if he's letting this go on.

2. She needs to talk to the family. She needs to tell them that if they want to be a part of their grandchildren/nieces/nephews lives, then they need to shape up. She can't have them bad mouthing her in front of her children.

3. She needs to suggest that she and the fiance find a different church to attend. One they both feel comfortable in.

If the fiance and family don't agree to her terms, then I feel she should cut her losses and move on. Love is not worth living your life in misery. There are plenty of fish in the sea, so to speak. You never know, if she does move on, she might find someone that fits her even better.

[Closed Womb]

It sounds like there are two problems here: the parents and the pastor.

And:

He suggested my sister had been raped as a young woman because she liked sex, and liking sex was "often" an indication of being raped.

What the fuck did I just read?

Again, what the fuck?

[tanksmom]

Call me a godless heathen but shouldn't the fiance be happy that his bride to be enjoys sex? If you are raised that you save yourself for that one god chosen person I can see that he might be slightly shocked but I would hope that he would get over it and realize that she can probably teach him a thing or two!

[AtroposHeart]

Yes, remember women have no worth outside their hymen status.

This includes women who were born without them

[BlueberryBird]

The biggest problem for me is that the fiance let the pastor tell HIS parents. That is incredibly inappropriate and he should have said no that it was a personal matter between just the couple. I see it as the fiance not standing up for the woman he claims to love when the pastor did the shaming and then further going on to tell his parents. Not that women need their battles fought for them but it's nice to know the the person who loves you has your back. I read that it was the parents insistence that they do pre-marriage counseling at their church. So did the fiance want the pre-marriage counseling or does he do what his parents say? That sort of sets the tone and role for the in laws in the marriage.

Exactly this. He might not care about her past (sounds like he didn't), but he has no backbone to stand up to his parents. That's even worse.

[lovefromgirl]

Call me a godless heathen but shouldn't the fiance be happy that his bride to be enjoys sex? If you are raised that you save yourself for that one god chosen person I can see that he might be slightly shocked but I would hope that he would get over it and realize that she can probably teach him a thing or two!

Ooh, yes. My first time was with a guy who hadn't gotten around much himself. Clitoris? What clitoris? But my partner now is delightfully experienced, and let's just say what I lacked in the practical I made up for with lots of research and enthusiasm. I avoid virgin boys; let someone more patient teach them.

[GeoBQn]

A commenter on the column made a good point that it is highly unlikely that the pastor has training or credentials in counseling. He might not even have a degree of any kind. He has absolutely no authority to be making any kind of proclamations on the mental state or motivations of anybody.

[VVV]

If the fiance can't keep his fat mouth shut about sister's private life, then sister needs to run for the hills. Nobody needs to be married to someone who has no concept of privacy. Not to mention bringing in his parents. Fiance is a tool.

[nokidsmom]

If the sister is really in love with her fiance, then she needs to do the following:

1. She needs to sit down with the fiance and explain how she feels. She needs to tell him that she does not agree with the disrespect she was shown and will not live the rest of her life being shamed and regarded as less than him. She needs to lay down the law. Either the family treat her with respect and kindness, or she walks. No one should be made to feel guilty about enjoying sex. And, as her soon to be husband, he should be standing up for her and telling his family how it will be. It seems the fiance is not a very strong person if he's letting this go on.

2. She needs to talk to the family. She needs to tell them that if they want to be a part of their grandchildren/nieces/nephews lives, then they need to shape up. She can't have them bad mouthing her in front of her children.

3. She needs to suggest that she and the fiance find a different church to attend. One they both feel comfortable in.

If the fiance and family don't agree to her terms, then I feel she should cut her losses and move on. Love is not worth living your life in misery. There are plenty of fish in the sea, so to speak. You never know, if she does move on, she might find someone that fits her even better.

When I finished reading the article I frankly hoped that the sister had already cut her losses. The article doesn't state the sister's and fiance's ages, but I am guessing that they aren't teenagers and are probably of an age where if the man has not managed to separate himself from his parents in terms of his personal life (even if he is living with them) then it's not a good sign. I doubt even sitting down with the fiance and laying down the law is going to do much. The guy needs to establish his own separateness from Mom and Dad before marriage; maybe his fiance breaking up with him might be a step in that direction.

ETA: If I had dealt with this level of shit in premarital counseling, it would be game over.

[Kitty]

Shit like this makes me very glad I'm no longer involved with this type of belief.

I'm with everyone that sister needs to run for the hills, but fiance nerds to run there too. He will never be happy if he's being controlled.like this by his church. His pastor had no business bringing his parents into it at all. Everyone in that church needs to run for it. Saying that enjoying sex is a sign if a previous assault is waving all kinds of red flags for me.

[Lady Elaine]

I would never want to have a child in that sort of situation. Just imagine what the parents might tell their grandchildren when they get older.

[Deleted03]

They are the kind of people that put pressures on men to perform at all times. I think the bride is pretty aware that the first night won't be glamorous, but she loves him and obviously does not care.

Sex does not have to be perfect every time, and anyone expecting perfect sex on their first time are deluding themselves.

[Swamptribe]

The problem as I see it is that he is still letting his parents run his personal life. He is not an adult yet. Fundies seem to feel that one does not become an 'adult' until they are married. That until then, Mumsie and Daddums decide what the children should do with their lives. Including choices in spouse. Frankly, you shouldn't be getting married unless you have already, emotionally, become an adult. If your parents are still making your life decisions than you are not at the adult state.

And frankly, I think this whole thing is just a ruse on his part to get out of marrying her. I think she scares the hell out of him, and or that he is intimidated by her sexual history. He's being a coward by having his parents, and a minister, pull the guilt crap on the woman he claims to want to marry. She should run like hell.

[BravaAmica]

Does anyone know if there's a follow up for the (un)happy couple?

[nokidsmom]

The problem as I see it is that he is still letting his parents run his personal life. He is not an adult yet. Fundies seem to feel that one does not become an 'adult' until they are married. That until then, Mumsie and Daddums decide what the children should do with their lives. Including choices in spouse. Frankly, you shouldn't be getting married unless you have already, emotionally, become an adult. If your parents are still making your life decisions than you are not at the adult state.

Some fundie parents don't even step out of their married children's lives; so becoming an "adult" in their eyes is no guarantee that they will back off.

And frankly, I think this whole thing is just a ruse on his part to get out of marrying her. I think she scares the hell out of him, and or that he is intimidated by her sexual history. He's being a coward by having his parents, and a minister, pull the guilt crap on the woman he claims to want to marry. She should run like hell.

Maybe not a ruse, but maybe overinvolved Mommie and Daddy are doing a number on him behind the scenes now the wedding is looming in hopes that he might not go through the marriage. Using guilt, fear and shame in provoking a situation where he will change his mind or get the sister to change her mind and walk away. And they get to keep their little boy.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I've know people who overcame over-involved ILs, but it can only be done with the total commitment of the spouse.

She needs to say:

"We are never seeing that pastor again, ever. That was a gross invasion of privacy, the focus on my past sexual life was creepy and gross, and telling your parents was so far out of line that it's in outer space.

You know about my life before you. I'm not apologizing for any of it, since I didn't make any commitments or hurt anyone, but now I am at a point in my life where I am ready to leave it behind and commit to you exclusively. I've been tested for STDs and you know that the results were negative. We each traveled different paths to get to where we are now, and that's fine. You can be a part of my future, but you cannot dwell on my past. If that is something that you can't do, then there's the door. I want to be with you, but only if we have a relationship with lots of mutual respect. Going forward into the future, we need to have the sort of relationship where we put each other first, where we treat each other with respect, and where we do not permit anyone else to disrespect to the other. I understand that you love your parents, but if you cannot enforce boundaries so that they know that treating me with disrespect or speaking negatively about me to you is out of bounds, then this relationship will end."

[Jinger Jar]

I guess my question is how did they get all the way to an engagement before her sexual past became an issue? Sexual histories – or lack thereof – are typically something a couple talks about long before they even talk about getting married.

As far as that pastor telling her future in-laws about her sexual past… I can say with confidence that if the couple who hosted our pre-marital counseling had taken in upon themselves to share the contents of our pre-cana evenings with my husband’s parents, my mother-in-laws would have told them to get stuffed

[bunny]

I had a past and my husband did not when we got married. He knew all about it as I told him. We did discuss it briefly in premarital counseling.

I will say that for the pastor to inform the parents was a majorly heavy breach of confidentiality. I wonder did HE do it or did the fiance tell them himself? Either way none of this was their business, and I am horrified beyond belief.

This whole scenario brings up some rather massive red flags. As a Christian I left my past in the past and that is where it belongs. Any attempt on anyone's part to fling it back in my face would be totally rejected. That is what she should do too.

PS....my honeymoon went just fine. I could say more but that would be tmi :oops: :lol: :lol: :lol: