Misogyny and the Skeptic/Atheist Community

[Alecto]

This article is rather long, but well worth the read.

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/ ... reats.html

 

 

The skeptic/political Atheist movement is primarily made up of men, and honestly, even though I hang out on Reddit, I am shocked at how much there are some shocking similarities to the fundies. At skeptic conventions women are groped without consent, telling them they deserve to be raped... it makes me sick.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I have noticed that, some seem to be just as sexist as the fundies, and I have noticed that there seems to be less female skeptics.

I actually won a ticket to a skeptic convention recently (coincidentally from someone who often blogs about these issues), if anyone tries groping me, I would have no problem at all with kicking them in the nuts.

[Alecto]

I actually won a ticket to a skeptic convention recently (coincidentally from someone who often blogs about these issues), if anyone tries groping me, I would have no problem at all with kicking them in the nuts.

I was once groped at a gaming con and yelled as loud as I could, "DON'T TOUCH MY NO NO PLACE!"

[doggie]

this gives fundies more ammo that if you are not christian you don't have morals.

[mirele]

I was once groped at a gaming con and yelled as loud as I could, "DON'T TOUCH MY NO NO PLACE!"

This made me laugh, because I can't imagine getting groped in public and not dropping at least one F-bomb in response (as in "Get your fucking hands offa me!"). Given that I live in a rather conservative part of the country, maybe I should remember your response for the future.

[caito]

It disappoints me to see assholes like that in the atheist community. Two steps forward, one step back. I have a few male atheist friends that are quite sexist. I've heard about how women are treated at cons.

[Claddagh]

One time one guy tried grabbing my butt on the bus. I was able to grab his wrist, hold his arm up and shout very loudly, "Did anyone lose a hand? I found it on my ass!"

[Kitty]

On a more 'grassroots' level, the sexism isn't quite so bad, at least in my experience. I actually went to the Reason Rally back in March, and was very pleased to see several women and minorities on the stage. My college's Secular Student Alliance was very woman-friendly, and women outnumbered the men at most meetings, even on days where regulars couldn't show up.

Of course, the 'Four Horsemen' are well, men, and the most well-known even within the skeptic community are men. Which is disappointing. And with attitudes like Richard Dawkins's (there's a reason behind the "Dick to the Dawk" nickname, and it's not just because "Dick" is a common nickname for "Richard") and Bill Maher's and Daniel Tosh's* aren't exactly flukes. Misogyny, though, is nothing new to 'enlightened' men, and while they're very much pro-choice and pro-birth control, there is quite a bit of misogyny and I do wish women were taken more seriously within.

[2xx1xy1JD]

What do you guys think of this? Am I just a humorless, pro-censorship feminist? [Yes, I realize that the offensive remarks are made by a character who is supposed to be offensive, but still see nothing funny about this.]

anythingbuttheist.blogspot.ca/2012/04/two-dudes-retards.html

[Guest Anonymous]

What do you guys think of this? Am I just a humorless, pro-censorship feminist? [Yes, I realize that the offensive remarks are made by a character who is supposed to be offensive, but still see nothing funny about this.]

anythingbuttheist.blogspot.ca/2012/04/two-dudes-retards.html

That is just bad. It's just awful. You are not being humourless; it's just not funny.

[Kitty]

What do you guys think of this? Am I just a humorless, pro-censorship feminist? [Yes, I realize that the offensive remarks are made by a character who is supposed to be offensive, but still see nothing funny about this.]

anythingbuttheist.blogspot.ca/2012/04/two-dudes-retards.html

It's not funny. It's the same stupid, shallow ripped-off-from-Family-Guy/South-Park "humor".

At least Peter Griffin gets schooled or called out on his behavior. The guy in this comic does not. I can see the point the "artist" is trying to make, but it falls flat because there's absolutely no comedy. The reason South Park and Family Guy are so popular while making the same jokes is because they're funny, and it's not built on the idea of "it's offensive, therefore it's funny." There's much more to comedy than merely shocking the audience, and a lot of the people who want to rip off all the "cool" shows where the same jokes would be made and appreciated do not grasp that.

Comedy would be the character in the comic actually developing an attachment (romantic or not) to someone he considers a "retard" and having to cover it up to his friends, who will of course mock him for his apparent hypocrisy. Or, because I'm another humorless, pro-censorship :roll: feminist, the character having the police called on him by said "retard"'s caregiver and him going to jail for rape.

[Fargood]

I was on my high school and college debate teams, which were notoriously male-dominated, even though there wasn't a fundie in sight. Almost the entire debate community was atheist and academic (I say "almost" because I think there was a brief period where BYU made a feeble attempt at having a debate team, but failed miserably.) The inherently aggressive nature of debate tends to attract highly competitive, confrontational personalities.

Debaters are equal opportunity opponents. If they can gain an advantage by exploiting even a perceived weakness, they will do it, sometimes subconciously. I doubt all the male debaters got together and said, "hey, let's drive all the women out of this activity!" However, I do think that if a male debater could gain a competitive advantage by exploiting an opponents gender, they would do it.

I think the same thing may occur in the Atheist/Skeptic community. The nature of the controversial subject attracts people who are not afraid of controversy or are absolute in their thinking. That kind of confidence takes an almost fundamentalist tone in and of itself. It's not that there aren't female skeptics, it's that they are overshadowed by those who are louder.

[bbtlover]

Years ago, I went on a haunted hay ride for a first date with my now husband and one of the people in costume grabbed my breast. I yelled "Get your hand off of me, you asshole". Then he got punched in the face by my hubby and the other riders cheered that the guy in the gorilla costume got hit. I felt a little bad for swearing in front of kids, but the loser needed to learn he can't just touch people without there consent. There were signs all over the place saying that the actors will not touch you during the ride. I complained and I got my money back and the guy fired!

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I don't think being an atheist or otherwise "enlightened" gives some magical exemption from rape culture, no.

If anything, the hip worldly parts of the internet are particularly infested with "bros." I mean, "feel free to hang around on the [whatever popular site] but you should expect rape jokes and "make me a sandwich" jokes and fat-shaming and all sorts of misogynistic talk about women and how they are only ever out to trap a man and force him to pay child support but have no actual skills" are pretty much the unwritten rules of plenty of places. MRAs, pretty much.

[JesusFightClub]

I can't speak to the sceptic community, but there is certainly a strong streak of misogny on the Scottish left in politics. It's not just the obvious suspects in the world. It's rape culture, as people here have said.

[B5SnowDog]

One time one guy tried grabbing my butt on the bus. I was able to grab his wrist, hold his arm up and shout very loudly, "Did anyone lose a hand? I found it on my ass!"

When a drunk guy at a party got a little too handsy, I yelled out, "The hand does not belong there!"

[Gil]

Holy crap, Richard Dawkins is an asshole! My heart is a little broken.

[debrand]

I've noticed that open dislike of misogyny seems more noticable on the internet lately. It isn't just that some guys might be confused about women's issues. There seems more open dislike of women in general. The United States is moving to the right and I think that the Atheist Community is moving rightward also.

[valsa]

I've noticed that open dislike of misogyny seems more noticable on the internet lately. It isn't just that some guys might be confused about women's issues. There seems more open dislike of women in general. The United States is moving to the right and I think that the Atheist Community is moving rightward also.

Unfortunately, it doesn't surprise me. One only has to look at the popularity (especially with young men and teen boys) of shows like Family Guy or Tosh.0. The former was created and primarily voiced by a self-identified atheist and the latter's host, while I'm not sure if he is an atheist, regularly mocks the concept of god and religion. And yet I doubt either show has even one episode that can be watched without encountering at least one rape joke, violence-against-women joke, or reference to how women are basically so dumb that it's surprising they manage to keep themselves alive.

[Dark Matters]

I read a lot of atheist/skeptic/feminist blogs, as well as Reddit, and I think what bothers me the most is the woman bashing done by other women in the comment sections. If they haven't personally experienced being groped, catcalled or otherwise harassed by men, then it must not happen and any woman who complains that it happened to them is just a whiner, a liar or a man-hater. Way to support your sisters, gals!.

[dawbs]

I read a lot of atheist/skeptic/feminist blogs, as well as Reddit, and I think what bothers me the most is the woman bashing done by other women in the comment sections. If they haven't personally experienced being groped, catcalled or otherwise harassed by men, then it must not happen and any woman who complains that it happened to them is just a whiner, a liar or a man-hater. Way to support your sisters, gals!.

I see thi as a sad statement of "I rose above it, so should you"

I have a relative who had one of the most abusive, frightful, 'lifetime movie' childhoods one can imagine [living in poverty in the US, being 'sold' by her mother for sex to men, eventually forced into a teenage marriage by said mom, never finished school, etc].

She found her way out of that life. Through a blessed combination of luck, re-marriage [to a very decent guy], and pure will on her part, she is fairly well-adjusted and living a good, upper middle class life.

And conversations with her about poverty make me want to jump through a window.

Because she can't admit that some of these people 'try' to make it out and fail. She can't admit that the safety nets aren't worthwhile. For some (not fully incomprehensible) reason, if she admits that some of this was 'luck', it puts her back in terror of what her life could become and she compensates by claiming that everyone can/should be able to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps.

(she's not an uncaring person. She's generous and gives to charity and all that jazz she's just...stuck when it comes to this and politics)

I think it's not uncommon for people (like these women iwho comment) (and I've been guilty of it) to think "well, that's not so bad, it made ME a stronger person, whya re these whimpy people objecting to the trial by fire?"

[nokoanna]

I read a lot of atheist/skeptic/feminist blogs, as well as Reddit, and I think what bothers me the most is the woman bashing done by other women in the comment sections. If they haven't personally experienced being groped, catcalled or otherwise harassed by men, then it must not happen and any woman who complains that it happened to them is just a whiner, a liar or a man-hater. Way to support your sisters, gals!.

It might be a combination of hoping that if you pretend it doesn't happen it won't happen to you. And the desire to be liked and accepted by the community. You know, that they will think your a bro' and not a ho' and let you in their treehouse...

[Alecto]

I read a lot of atheist/skeptic/feminist blogs, as well as Reddit, and I think what bothers me the most is the woman bashing done by other women in the comment sections. If they haven't personally experienced being groped, catcalled or otherwise harassed by men, then it must not happen and any woman who complains that it happened to them is just a whiner, a liar or a man-hater. Way to support your sisters, gals!.

To be fair, at least on Reddit, some of those "women" have been exposed as being men.

[caito]

I've never been groped or harassed by a man, but I'd never presume that it never happens. (I know nobody's calling anyone out, just saying.) I don't understand victim-shaming.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

It might be a combination of hoping that if you pretend it doesn't happen it won't happen to you. And the desire to be liked and accepted by the community. You know, that they will think your a bro' and not a ho' and let you in their treehouse...

SO much this. It's the pervasive attitude that the normal state of being on the internet is that everyone is a "bro" and you play along or you get alienated. Because if you speak up or call people out or stand up for feminism, well, that's breaking the "rules" and somehow you're trying to "take over" because "everyone" knows that talking from an explicitly woman POV is just weird and beyond the pale and special interest and what is this???It's just so much complete bullshit.

"Bro" is not the default state of human. Case. Fucking. Closed.

(Been on the internet from the late 80's, here. It was not 100% male then either.)