Video of alleged Mormon temple endowment ceremony

[emily]

Nope, I've been baptized without my permission, so have all my siblings and Jewish relatives. It's pretty fucking offensive, worse than knocking on doors.

ETA: And even though they have baptized me I'm still not allowed in their temple. WTF?

How did you find out this had been done to you?

I admit that I do not know about all the secret stuff in the temple, because I never did anything there except baptisms. I do know that they do not baptize anyone by proxy if they're alive. If you were baptized by proxy without permission, it was not in a Mormon temple. They only do dead people, and do not accept name submissions for living people, or anyone who has been dead for a short period of time. When my mother wanted to do temple work for her maternal grandmother after she passed, she had to go through a waiting period. I don't remember how long it is, but it was years.

So after you've gone through the fancy ceremony, what do you do? Do you just go hang out in the temple whenever you feel like it?

You only go through the fancy ceremony once for yourself, the Mormons call this 'receiving your endowments' and that is when Mormons are given the special underwear the first time. Every subsequent time you go, you're going as a proxy for dead people, just like the baptisms. They do the baptisms for the dead person first, then the name is passed on to the people who do the other ceremonies in the name of the dead person. Once you've had your own endowments done, the only other ceremony you can do for yourself is the sealing ceremony (Mormon wedding). Once you've done that, you can go back and do that as a proxy for dead people as well.

You're not slowed to just hang out in the temple, or just look around. I believe there is a room where you can go just to sit in peace and pray or whatever, if you're there already to do the proxy stuff. Everything is done on a schedule, and there are sessions you have to sign up for, which you go in as a group and do the creepy chanting ceremony stuff.

It's a not so much a traditional sort of creepiness. Rather it seemed very matter of fact, almost like a mechanical, bureaucratic matter. I felt for her because she was representing a number of the dead, which of course involved her being dunked several times. How many baptisms does one person usually do at once?

I get what you're saying, though. If I were a kid and raised a Mormon, I would probably see it as a nifty outing as well. Mind you, I would probably look forward more to dinner out than baptisms :lol:

Yeah, I didn't look forward to the creepy dunking and whatnot, I really only liked being out of the house, and spending time with people who had happy families. I wasn't really raised in a strong Mormon family, so it wasn't like I valued the actual task we were doing. There was a lot of contention in our house, and I always just wished I could be a part of one of the other families I knew from church because they always seemed happy, and their parents were kind. The parents of the kids I envied usually chaperoned these trips, did the driving, and treated us to a nice meal out, so that was always the silver lining for me.

To answer your question, we usually did about a dozen or so names, one right after the other like that. There's also another part of doing baptisms which takes place in a small room with a few chairs, it's called confirmation. After a name has been baptized by proxy, it is sent to the confirmation room, where someone sits as proxy, and two members of the priesthood lay hands on the proxys head and say a prayer that confirms them a member of the church. This is the same process that is done with a living person who wants to get baptized, they do the dunking, and then afterwards are 'confirmed' with a prayer and laying on of hands. It is very mechanical, and most of the time you don't do the same names for baptisms and confirmation, it is just whichever name is on the next card. The names are now kept track of in a computer, and just read off a screen.

Seriously do families make a big deal out of this? Are boys ever used as surrogates? Do you need to be a virgin to take a dip for the dead? So many questions. :think:

Yes, both boys and girls can go. If a girl is on her period at the time of the temple trip, she is not allowed to do the baptisms, only the confirmations. Because of this rule, a lot of girls would just skip the trip altogether rather than have the boys notice that she's only doing confirmations, and therefore figure out she's menstruating (gasp!).

You don't have to be a virgin, but in order to go in the temple, you have to have a Temple Reccomend from your bishop. This means you have to sit down with him and have what is the Mormon equivalent of confession. Not all sins are required to be confessed, just the major stuff, like premarital sex or 'petting'. If you were truthful in your temple recommend interview (which I rarely was) and confess to have done things of that nature, you're not allowed in until you've gone through the repentance process. There is no set rule for this process, it is different for every bishop. Most follow the guidelines that if you've had premarital sex, you have to give up taking the Sunday sacrament for a few months because you're not worthy, and then you have to wait one calendar year before entering the temple. I suppose this means you really are sorry, and you have prayed and repented to God, or something. So non-virgins are allowed in, but they have to be sorry.

Families make a big deal out of being 'temple worthy' so if you're not going and doing gods work for the dead, you're obviously not going because you're not worthy to enter the temple. Some of the more judgy Mormons (mostly in Utah, in my experience) make a point to gossip about those whom they observe are not going to the temple when they have the opportunity, so in a sense, it's a status symbol. The same type of judginess takes place when members observe other members not taking sacrament in Sunday meetings.

[mrs]

The video has gone viral on other sites/forums and people have largely pointed out the secrecy of the LDS church. Some people on another site have mentioned how back in the 60s, there was fear of JFK because he was Catholic, but the difference with Romney and Mormonism is that a lot of things are done in secret or non-Mormons are banned from Temple etc. With Catholicism, anyone can attend a wedding mass and several other sacrament services that are done at churches.

I am pretty sure anyone can attend any sacrament... that takes place in church (for example, attending the anointing of the sick which is very personal, emotional(for the person and family) and private, but if you were interested I am sure you could call any church and ask a priest to go with them on rounds for the sacrament).

[Coconut Flan]

The only Catholic sacrament that can't be observed up close is confession. Even that you might happen upon if someone sits with the priest out in the church. Also anyone can go to the twice yearly reconciliation services and where I've gone, there are usually several priests in view doing individual confessions.

[chopstix]

Yeah, this creeped me out a little. The chanting and the weird clothes were odd to say the list. I do think that it is the secrecy thing that really makes it weird to me though.

So, in order to go back into the celestial room, one has to do that ceremony first? Each time? Or can they skip that part and go straight through the veil?

[MrsKay]

That is some weird shiz right there. I'd share it on Facebook, but my father's family would disown me.

I was baptized Mormon when I was 10, and I'm pretty pissed about it. My grandmother is the worst - she insists that I'm Mormon, no matter how many times I tell her otherwise. Is there any way to officially UNbaptize a person? Seriously - if I had a way to do so, to have something that "cancels" my baptismal certificate and shuts people up, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Even before I gave up on Christianity altogether, I couldn't stand being associated with the Mormon church. Kids teased the hell out of me in high school - my husbands and long-term boyfriends have all jokingly teased me about polygamy. It always pissed me off that some of my family was worthy of Temple, and some of us weren't. Now that I've learned more about the religion than I was ever told, I seriously want to eliminate any ties that I have with it, aside from my relatives.

[shesinsane]

That is some weird shiz right there. I'd share it on Facebook, but my father's family would disown me.

I was baptized Mormon when I was 10, and I'm pretty pissed about it. My grandmother is the worst - she insists that I'm Mormon, no matter how many times I tell her otherwise. Is there any way to officially UNbaptize a person? Seriously - if I had a way to do so, to have something that "cancels" my baptismal certificate and shuts people up, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Even before I gave up on Christianity altogether, I couldn't stand being associated with the Mormon church. Kids teased the hell out of me in high school - my husbands and long-term boyfriends have all jokingly teased me about polygamy. It always pissed me off that some of my family was worthy of Temple, and some of us weren't. Now that I've learned more about the religion than I was ever told, I seriously want to eliminate any ties that I have with it, aside from my relatives.

It's a little extreme, but if you get yourself ex-communicated, your grandmother might stop claiming you're Mormon. :)

[B5SnowDog]

Say what you will about baptizing the dead, but when your religion began in the 19th century, you've got to find some way to enable those who died before then to join you in the afterlife. Baptizing the dead allows believers to include friends and family outside of the faith in their Mormon version of heaven.

experiencedd, those baptizing you without your consent were just making sure they'll see you again in the Kingdom of Heaven if that episode of South Park is right and Mormonism is the one true religion. ;)

So it's not enough to bug us by showing up at our doorsteps, they've got to annoy us in the afterlife too? Worse than door-to-door salesmen.

[Anxious Girl]

All I can say about proxy-baptisms is, that it's disrespectful of the dead person's choice (because they weren't that religion to begin with/not in a religion at all). Why should I respect ceremonies that the dead person didn't ask for when they were alive? I hate it when the Mormon Church, not Mormons, are like, "Respect the privacy of the ceremonies from outsiders!" but when they do this, it's totally a-ok, you guys, because the souls get a chance to become Mormon or not in Heaven people don't know if they dead wanted it in the first place! (If I was being assholish, please tell me. I have a hard time expressing myself when it comes to religious issues such as this. :oops: )

[mirele]

That is some weird shiz right there. I'd share it on Facebook, but my father's family would disown me.

I was baptized Mormon when I was 10, and I'm pretty pissed about it. My grandmother is the worst - she insists that I'm Mormon, no matter how many times I tell her otherwise. Is there any way to officially UNbaptize a person? Seriously - if I had a way to do so, to have something that "cancels" my baptismal certificate and shuts people up, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Even before I gave up on Christianity altogether, I couldn't stand being associated with the Mormon church. Kids teased the hell out of me in high school - my husbands and long-term boyfriends have all jokingly teased me about polygamy. It always pissed me off that some of my family was worthy of Temple, and some of us weren't. Now that I've learned more about the religion than I was ever told, I seriously want to eliminate any ties that I have with it, aside from my relatives.

You can resign your membership.

http://www.mormonresignation.com/

I did this after Prop 8 / Prop 102 in Arizona. I felt a ton of relief.

ETA: I did watch the long temple video when it first came out a few weeks ago and I can confirm this is similar to the video and ceremony I saw when I was endowed and had a temple recommend. I will confess to feeling very mixed emotions seeing it online. On the one hand, the assembly-line nature of the endowment does not endear itself to me. Nor does the covering of faces. On the other hand, there was the sadness at remembering again that I did give this up of my own free will. It's a weird feeling to be part of something larger than yourself and then to deliberately walk away from it.

ETA 2: Another interesting thing about the temple ceremony is that is very little official interpretation of what the temple ceremony actually means. This means first, that an individual Mormon can interpret what he/she sees any way he/she wants, as there's little official guidance. But, second, you're not supposed to talk about it outside of the temple--or inside, for that matter. So there's this ceremony a lot of people go through, some people go through it many times, yet you're not permitted to discuss what your insights are. What a drag.

ETA 3: I think the reason some people like the temple so much is that it is the one place in Mormondom where there are no kids and it is dead quiet. Even during the distribution of the Sacrament at church, there's usually at least one or several kids crying or shuffling their feet or saying, "MOMMY!" There's none of that in the temple. Just blessed boring quiet.

[Anxious Girl]

They used to have a website where you could check to see if they got to you yet. I don't know if it's still around. According to that site my DD was baptized by them less than 30 days after her birth. I think they tap public records too.

Does anybody have any links to the site that experiencedd was talking about? I want to make sure that none of my ancestors were baptized.

[emily]

It's a little extreme, but if you get yourself ex-communicated, your grandmother might stop claiming you're Mormon. :)

When I decided I didn't want to be a part of the Mormon church anymore, I started reading exmormon.org. That is where I found out that in order to have your name removed from their records without being excommunicated, you have to send a letter renouncing the church. I sent mine certified mail, and never heard back from anyone, which to me indicates that they never removed my records. I read on exmormon.org that it happened like that to many other people. Church policy dictates that when someone renounces the church, the stake president is required to contact the person and try to get them to reconsider, and tell then that they're making a huge mistake, and they will pay for it after they die, etc. A lot of people said that their records remain in the church even after they've requested otherwise, indicating that the request for removal was 'lost'.

[samurai_sarah]

That is some weird shiz right there. I'd share it on Facebook, but my father's family would disown me.

I was baptized Mormon when I was 10, and I'm pretty pissed about it. My grandmother is the worst - she insists that I'm Mormon, no matter how many times I tell her otherwise. Is there any way to officially UNbaptize a person? Seriously - if I had a way to do so, to have something that "cancels" my baptismal certificate and shuts people up, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Even before I gave up on Christianity altogether, I couldn't stand being associated with the Mormon church. Kids teased the hell out of me in high school - my husbands and long-term boyfriends have all jokingly teased me about polygamy. It always pissed me off that some of my family was worthy of Temple, and some of us weren't. Now that I've learned more about the religion than I was ever told, I seriously want to eliminate any ties that I have with it, aside from my relatives.

I think there is a way to get yourself out. As far as I recall, you need to send a resignation letter to someone. The people over at exmormon.com know way more about this than I do, so don't take my word for it. (I stumbled across this while I was researching ways to get out of the RCC. Sorry, the info above is all I remember. :oops: )

eta: cross-posted with emily

[silverspoons]

That is some weird shiz right there. I'd share it on Facebook, but my father's family would disown me.

I was baptized Mormon when I was 10, and I'm pretty pissed about it. My grandmother is the worst - she insists that I'm Mormon, no matter how many times I tell her otherwise. Is there any way to officially UNbaptize a person? Seriously - if I had a way to do so, to have something that "cancels" my baptismal certificate and shuts people up, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Even before I gave up on Christianity altogether, I couldn't stand being associated with the Mormon church. Kids teased the hell out of me in high school - my husbands and long-term boyfriends have all jokingly teased me about polygamy. It always pissed me off that some of my family was worthy of Temple, and some of us weren't. Now that I've learned more about the religion than I was ever told, I seriously want to eliminate any ties that I have with it, aside from my relatives.

It is near impossible to get your name off the books. Years ago my husband would get visits asking how he was doing and hinting about going back to church. When we did not baptize our children they sent some female missionaries by and I said a clear no. I called the local bishop and said I wanted no more visits about us or our kids and to take us all off your list. After that they do not bother us at all. I think the new way to keep people is to ignore them instead of bother them to come back to church. They want to keep the numbers up, active or not active.

Ex communication is becoming rare. They are dis-fellowshipping but not ex-communicating as much. Another way to keep the numbers high. My friend's husband was pure scum and had been dis-fellowshipped 2 times and reinstated. He did horrible things to her and he moved away. The local bishop wanted excommunication asap but the new bishop just dis-fellowshipped him again. His 10% was higher then hers and keeps him on the books.

The best you can try is writing the church office building in SLC and requesting to be be removed and follow up. You might be opening yourself up to visits from your local church members and phone calls and never actually get your name taken off.

[Guest Anonymous]

I have been glancing through some of the reddit posts and there are posts by active Mormons on there. I got annoyed with the below post.

The Mormons aren't bothering anyone? Yeah right, Prop 8 will not be forgotten. I know that some Mormons are against Prop 8. But this Mormon defender acts as if the LDS church hasn't bothered anyone. I heard a rumor somewhere that the LDS church baptized Pat Tillman. The Tillman family members are atheists and one of the Pat's brothers was pissed at a memorial service in which Maria Schriber and John McCain said that Pat was with the God. The brother replied and said something like, "Pat isn't with God. He didn't believe in God. He is fucking dead." If the Tillman family knew about Pat being baptized in absentia, they will be pissed. The LDS church and other religions have all bothered someone or groups of people at various times. So fuck that "they aren't bothering anyone" bullshit.

They fake-baptized Anne Frank too.

Edit- oops, this was mentioned a few times already.

[mirele]

Does anybody have any links to the site that experiencedd was talking about? I want to make sure that none of my ancestors were baptized.

https://familysearch.org/

ETA: Pat Tillman is in the birth records. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VGL7-44Q

Chances are good that he has been baptized and endowed by someone. But you have to know someone who has access to TempleReady to get that information.

Also, people are supposed to be DEAD for a year. Baptizing a child recently born is not acceptable. You have to be dead.

[Guest Anonymous]

I admit I am suspicious of religions that don't give you the full skinny until you join.

And pay lots of money.

[silverspoons]

Does anybody have any links to the site that experiencedd was talking about? I want to make sure that none of my ancestors were baptized.

My husband's aunt goes to genealogy center that is at the temple vistor's center and it tells her if someone's name has been submitted. My father's name was submitted the day he died. He was a lifelong catholic. The LDS do say my father has the choice to accept it or not. Im not too bothered because I know what my father believed.

They only do baptisms on the dead. They can't do it on the living. I have read that they run out of names and reuse them alot. I really wouldn't be that offended. These are little old ladies that sit and find joy in finding names and submitting them. I do not believe in it but my husband's aunt is terminally ill and she is so happy to do her temple name work. I would never tell her what I think of it because it gives her purpose in her final days. Also like PP stated most kids like the trip with their friends to the temple. They are only there 30 minutes doing baptisms but it is a day long outing. Most of the young men and women I know don't really believe in it but enjoy a field trip with friends and the approval of the community.

[MrsKay]

Thanks for the info! I guess I'll have to read more, to see if all of this applies in Canada as well.

This all kind of scares me now. :? My Mormon relatives are very intelligent and loving - the most devout family members are also the ones who have accepted me and loved me through the worst times, without trying to pull any religious bullshit on me. It amazes me that they actually believe all of this stuff. I sometimes wonder if my uncle has his doubts or a change of heart, but now I realize why he'd be too afraid to say anything if he did; his wife's family is all Mormon, and he accepted the religion when he met her. Now he's a valued member of the church, and our family name is well known in many areas; his sons have all gone on missions, and his married children have all married into other respected Mormon families. I am definitely considering asking to be removed, but being part of a well-known and respected family, I'm realizing that it's something I have to seriously be prepared for. The last thing I want is a family war, or my relatives feeling undue pressure from church leaders. What a truly fucked up cult this is. :evil:

[B5SnowDog]

And pay lots of money.

Especially that. I'm looking at you, $cientology.

[Closed Womb]

I admit I am suspicious of religions that don't give you the full skinny until you join.

I am dismissive of religions that don't give you the full skinny...

[mirele]

I am dismissive of religions that don't give you the full skinny...

Well, since no religion can give you the full skinny on whether there's even an afterlife or not...

[shedemei]

I believe familysearch.org just tells you if you're in their genealogical records, not that they've actually baptized you.

[emily]

I believe familysearch.org just tells you if you're in their genealogical records, not that they've actually baptized you.

This. I searched myself, and my family, and didn't find anything.

ETA - I'd be interested in seeing a hidden camera video of the Initiatory ceremony where Mormons are presented with the holy underwear while only wearing a poncho. Word is that the temple workers touch the member under the poncho.

[lilwriter85]

The only Catholic sacrament that can't be observed up close is confession. Even that you might happen upon if someone sits with the priest out in the church. Also anyone can go to the twice yearly reconciliation services and where I've gone, there are usually several priests in view doing individual confessions.

I remember after making my first confession before my First Holy Communion, the CCD teacher told us that if we ever walked into a mostly empty church and saw a priest talking with someone to leave the church right away, because a face to face confession could be happening. The parish that I went to growing up did those reconciliation services with several priests being situated in different parts of the church.

[lilith]

The latter day saints also baptised Hitler, Stalin and Mao posthumously, among many others. Which, in my opinion, makes their baptism of holocaust victims even more offensive.