Is Mormonism a Cult?

[O Latin]

It's frickin' HARD to be a Mormon. You are required to be at church almost every day for some non-sense function. You have multiple "jobs" within the church. Plus there's tons of pressure on women to have (at least outwardly) the perfect, large family. Mormon women carry the heaviest burden. Clothes are expected to be homemade, children are expected to be perfectly behaved, houses are supposed to be spotless and, oh, don't forget the 15 million jobs she has at the church, which probably includes cleaning the ENTIRE church every once in a while.

This is one of the biggest things that attracts me to Mormonism. It might just be my outsider, grass-is-always-greener-on-the-other-side-of-the-fence perspective, but I wish more churches were like this. At my church, almost everything is done by the paid staff and a select few volunteers who might as well be staff. It's a pretty big church, so it makes sense to have a large staff, but I wish there were more opportunities (and maybe even expectation) to be involved beyond just coming to service on Sunday morning. I know that's not a reason to switch religions, it's just something I like to gripe about from time to time.

[Patsy]

The best guide I've seen for assessing the cult status of a group was really simple: the only criteria was how easy it is for members to leave.

That is a great litmus test! Seems to work for a lot of groups. Unfortunately, Mormonism is once again the wild card of "is it a cult?", because especially for multi-generational Utah Mormons, I get the impression that it's not just a religion, it's absolutely everything - the whole culture. Having similar beliefs and having grown up with those beliefs is maybe not enough to access your entire culture - if you also need the official approval of a temple recommend to avoid becoming an outsider, that makes it really hard to leave, even though there won't be proper shunning. So is it a cult when that complete encapsulation of your whole culture happens kind of incidentally or organically (rather than being suddenly imposed by your father one day, for a comparison)?

[FaustianSlip]

For the people saying, "Yeah, it's demanding, and they expect you to give them money, but you can leave if you want to," yes, you can. Now. That was not always the case. Until very recently, the Mormon Church refused, point blank, to remove the names of former Mormons from the membership rolls at the request of people who wanted to leave the church, because keeping those names on their rolls allowed them to claim inflated membership numbers. So people would leave the church, but when they tried to make that official and get their names off of the rolls (to prevent missionaries contacting them in an attempt to talk them back into being active, for instance), the church refused to comply. There was a lawsuit about it, it was ruled that no, a church cannot force people to remain members, even in name only, if they wish to leave, and now you can get your name scrubbed from the rolls, but it's a time-consuming process, deliberately made so by the church. There are a hell of a lot of stories floating around out there of bishops "losing" name removal requests and people being given the runaround by the church administration in Salt Lake when trying to get their names removed. These stories typically end in having a lawyer write a letter, which finally results in prompt action by the church. I've read too many of these stories to think that they're all just aberrations. Likewise, I've seen too many descriptions of people who have left the church being lovebombed by members or repeatedly harassed by missionaries attempting to talk them back into activity to say that it's easy as "just leave, if you want to." The Mormon church does not like losing members, and especially if you have other family members who are still active, it is not at all unusual to find yourself the recipient of a ton of person to person concern trolling from members of your former ward.

Meanwhile, the tithing thing. The Mormon system of tithing actually is pretty unusual. A lot of churches require that people tithe in the sense of giving ten percent of their income to charity, but I've never known any that literally called people in each year to check on it, and I don't think most require that tithing money go directly to the church. Certainly in Judaism, we are expected to give ten percent of our money to charitable causes, but those causes are left up to our own discretion. If you want to give tzedakah to Doctors Without Borders or Planned Parenthood or Magen David Adom, whatever. And if you don't give ten percent, you're not going to be barred from your own child's wedding or your grandkid's bris or something, which is absolutely the case in the Mormon context. To me, that is very cultish. I know of multiple cases where people had to pay X years' worth of back tithing in order to get a Temple recommend to attend their own son or daughter's wedding. That's pretty disgusting to me.

Most of the Mormons I know are great people, but I think that the church leadership exercises very rigid control over its members, especially in the Mormon corridor, and the emphasis on tithing, coupled with the reluctance to allow members to dissociate from the church at will, starts to make it look very cult-y to me. I don't think it's hateful to say so, either. Just because a religion isn't as nuts as Scientology doesn't mean that it can't also be a cult. I mean, I think the Lubavitchers are probably a cult at this point, too- certainly the Meshichist crowd. That doesn't mean that I hate them, but I wouldn't run off and join them, either, and I think they're ultimately detrimental to their membership.

[Renting with Raggles]

That is a great litmus test! Seems to work for a lot of groups. Unfortunately, Mormonism is once again the wild card of "is it a cult?", because especially for multi-generational Utah Mormons, I get the impression that it's not just a religion, it's absolutely everything - the whole culture. Having similar beliefs and having grown up with those beliefs is maybe not enough to access your entire culture - if you also need the official approval of a temple recommend to avoid becoming an outsider, that makes it really hard to leave, even though there won't be proper shunning. So is it a cult when that complete encapsulation of your whole culture happens kind of incidentally or organically (rather than being suddenly imposed by your father one day, for a comparison)?

I've seen people use this 'single factor' cult test in several places over the last few years, Quivering Daughters blog used it once IIRC - too lazy and full of food at the moment to look it up, but it is a real assessment people use in looking at such groups.

The "organic shunning" (great description, btw) isn't such an issue because it still puts the LDS in the borderline category - it's another letter , but not spirit of the law element particular to that church. Organic shunning could happen if someone left the church in a predominantly Roman Catholic country as well. But they still would have freedom of movement, and skills that are useful in another community. The ex-RC moves to the big city where there's a larger secular population, the ex- Mormon to a new state. It would be a culture shock, like moving to a foreign country and it would suck not to be involved with family and friends, but it would be doable, unlike say, Sarah Maxwell up and leaving. Just like it would suck to have spent so much time/ money on the church, but no one's calling for death to apostates. What I'm trying to say is that the Mormon church dances on the edge of cult status, but just barely keeps on the windy side of the definition ( stupid mixed metaphors ).

[bellicosebroad]

I think anything's a cult that discourages truly critical thinking, uses shaming or fear to try to control members, etc. -- which would make most organized religions today fall under that category, not to mention the patriarchal nonsense that is still such a strong undercurrent in most.

I hate the idea of being forced to tithe (whether it's on the honor system or not). What if you're broke and can't afford it? What if you're struggling to feed your kids? I do actually like the idea of having group support, that if a church member falls on hard times, other members rally in support and chip in, so "donate as you're able to help the community," absolutely. My grandparents' church always passed the plate at services and the pastor actually encouraged donations to be placed in sealed envelopes so no one could see what anyone else gave. (I think it was a "pride" preventative as much as it was anything else, but still a nice idea.) The only "religion" I have any experience with at all that I wouldn't call a cult (because of the controlling aspects most have) is Unitarian Universalism, and then only because my sister and her family loosely observe.

[FaustianSlip]

According to Jewish law, if you're unable to afford tzedakah, or if you're a recipient of tzedakah yourself, you're not actually allowed to tithe. Personally, I think the idea that someone should be giving something to charity is a good one, so long as you're not being told that you need to give to XYZ organization. You can't "pass the plate" in a synagogue, because Jews aren't traditionally allowed to handle money on the Sabbath, so that doesn't work in the context of a Jewish community (which is why most synagogues have some kind of membership fee, though I've never heard of anyone who wasn't able to attend or participate for not being a member of a synagogue).

But then, I have a hard time saying that, say, Reform Judaism or Episcopalianism are "cults," grouping them in with Scientology or FLDS or something. I suppose it makes for good propaganda and talking points, but it casts such a wide net as to render the word "cult" meaningless, IMHO.

[G G Gunhold]

Cult. Not "cult lite" or "semi-cult". If the best argument for it is that it's not Scientology, then Scientology can argue that it's not Jonestown. The definition of cult that I understand is about a system, not about the consequences of it. Theoretically one could have a nice, loving cult. But Mormonism? Between the money stuff and the social exclusion stuff and the heavy (near) mandatory proselytizing stuff...

That said, I think some corporate brands border on cults too, and somewhat intentionally. Apple springs to mind...

Milieu Control Apple's control over all the apps on its (your) phones...

Mystical Manipulation The hype and release of "new" products

Demand for Purity Um, have you been in the stores? Pure is definitely being sold, though I'm not sure shame/guilt play in.

Confession I could make this argument, but it's less clear which tack to take.

Sacred Science Steve Jobs much?

Loading the Language iBlah! (and apple bar/geniuses/etc.)

Doctrine over person Yep. All negative experiences get written off as one-offs.

Dispensing of existence Um, yes.

I've also found Apple really weird/cultish in...

the sort of Mormon-like dress code/cheerfulness of Apple store workers,

the way that learning to use the products is highly dependent upon person-to-person dispersal,

the heavy sell of those who are Apple fans without anything substantial to actually back up their preaching besides the magic of Steve Jobs,

the way once you leave it you have to repurchase programs

the lack of freedom to develop intellectually/the very tight control

the secrecy about product (as a means to drive demand/attention)

the use of fear to keep people in it (macs are "easier to use" and "don't get viruses")

the difficulty troubleshooting your own issues/need for "clergy" at the apple store

the patriarchal structure in place at least at the stores, as reported by a friend who worked there for a number of years

[VintageJen1984]

OT: I hear that The Chronicles of Narnia has a lot of Anglican symbolism, and that The Lord of the Rings has a lot of Roman Catholic symbolism. Is it true for The Lord of the rings? I haven't read it. I read Narnia, and it's so close to being right up in-your-face-obviously-symbolism-but-yet-you-can't-tell-right-away, if that makes any sense.

The Chronicles of Narnia is a Christian allegory, that's what it was meant for. It was written by an Anglican theologian with many other works. I know what you mean in your last sentence. I think if you read it and then came to church it might do a great deal in helping you make theological connections like "oh, like Aslan and the stone table!" or whatever. So you can read it without knowing, but if you were already a Christian or you were trying to become one you'd automatically see most of those connections.

[Arete]

LOTR is written by a Roman Catholic writer, and it does have some archtypes in there (Galadriel is a sort of "Mary" figure but does not birth a Messiah)-Frodo is a "suffering servant, which could mean in the Jewish sense of the term in prophetic writing or using it as an allusion to Jesus-The Return of the King is actually far more Davidic in allegory than Christian. So while you can glean some Jewish and Christian symbols, it really is it's own fantasy world and hardly a metaphor for the catecheism of the Catholic Church. I believe Tolkein specifically stated that it was NOT a Catholic metaphor.

[freejoytoo]

I think it's worrying how the LDS church also actively covers up both the more unpleasant parts of its history and some of the wackier pieces of doctrine it no longer preaches. I hear they use a milk before meat approach - they reel new people in by telling them the nice, shiny face of it - we're all spirit people, families forever blah blah blah and don't mention things like Joseph Smith's wives and weird temple ceremonies.

Stephen Fry says it best:

[mebeforee]

Twilight is absolutely packed with propaganda. I believe that Meyer didn't intend it, but it is definitely there. She's just so swimming in that stuff all the time that she didn't seem to realize. There are tons of offensive, problematic and abusive relationships in the books, too, which is pretty overt and one of the main problems that people have with them. That coupled with the sexism is enough all on its own to make the books disgraceful, without even bothering to address the mormon symbolism she uses. And the writing itself is terrible. They just aren't worth the money.

[Fargood]

I hear they use a milk before meat approach - they reel new people in by telling them the nice, shiny face of it - we're all spirit people, families forever blah blah blah and don't mention things like Joseph Smith's wives and weird temple ceremonies.

Yes. When I left the LDS church at 18, I was still finding out things about the church I didn't know. As a youth, everything is sunshine and roses. As you grow older, you start uncovering doctrines in Sunday school, Youth Group, etc. I was about 16 before I found out about the Celestial wives crap. I remember thinking, "how am I just find out about this now?" Of course, I always knew about the magic underwear, because my Mom wore it.

When I was 18, I was in college and went to a Young Women's retreat. The speaker went on and on and on about how women who foresake getting married at a young age and go to college instead are being led by the devil. Half way through the talk, I got up and walked out. I've never stepped foot in a church since then.

[mpheels]

They wear a special garment/underwear. I know other religions have special clothes: the yarmulke, priests’ collars/robes, and nuns’ habits, etc., but special religious underwear seems odd.

The underwear itself doesn't strike me as odd, but I do find the supernatural physical protection attributed to the underwear by some Mormons strange.

[freejoytoo]

Yes. When I left the LDS church at 18, I was still finding out things about the church I didn't know. As a youth, everything is sunshine and roses. As you grow older, you start uncovering doctrines in Sunday school, Youth Group, etc. I was about 16 before I found out about the Celestial wives crap. I remember thinking, "how am I just find out about this now?" Of course, I always knew about the magic underwear, because my Mom wore it.

When I was 18, I was in college and went to a Young Women's retreat. The speaker went on and on and on about how women who foresake getting married at a young age and go to college instead are being led by the devil. Half way through the talk, I got up and walked out. I've never stepped foot in a church since then.

Do they go into the whole area of Adam-god and Jesus and Satan being brothers?

[debrand]

This is one of the biggest things that attracts me to Mormonism. It might just be my outsider, grass-is-always-greener-on-the-other-side-of-the-fence perspective, but I wish more churches were like this. At my church, almost everything is done by the paid staff and a select few volunteers who might as well be staff. It's a pretty big church, so it makes sense to have a large staff, but I wish there were more opportunities (and maybe even expectation) to be involved beyond just coming to service on Sunday morning. I know that's not a reason to switch religions, it's just something I like to gripe about from time to time.

I haven't read the entire thread so I apologize if has been said. Couldn't you volunteer in your community? Maybe you could deliver meals to the home bound?

[gilora]

And what happened when a Mormon scientist, determined to prove that Native Americans were descended from Israelites discovered they weren't? He was excommunicated.

The same thing happened to Fawn Brodie for writing a historical biography of Joseph Smith. "No Man Knows My History" is a fascinating read BTW.

[mirele]

I'm not trying to hand-slap, but I was raised Mormon,although I'm not practicing/active currently, and I'm from a long line of Mormons(Polygamous great-great-grandfather, family that crossed the plains with handcarts and such) but I've never heard of tax returns or other financial statements being demanded from anyone.I was active all of my childhood and early adulthood. That said, I can see why someone could call the LDS church a cult if a person has only had contact with Mormon culture. The culture is painfully weird, especially in the jello belt.

Oh, and Hi! to O Latin. It's nice to see another member from Idaho!

I agree. No, they're not asking for pay stubs or tax returns when you go in for a temple recommend interview. Trust me, even hardcore Mormons would object to their bishop/stake president pawing through their tax returns. That's just loony. However, if you work for the church or BYU, your tithing automatically gets deducted. That's what the poster may have been thinking of.

[O Latin]

I haven't read the entire thread so I apologize if has been said. Couldn't you volunteer in your community? Maybe you could deliver meals to the home bound?

That's a very good point and I have just recently been thinking that I need to get out and do some volunteering (I looked into campaign volunteering, with the elections coming up, but I just can't bring myself to actively support one party). Part of it has to do with the fact that I just really like church and want to spend more time there. Up until about a year ago, I was very involved in the music program, to the extent that I was there almost every day for some rehearsal or other. I'm still in the choir, but sometimes I miss that high level of involvement, even though I know I don't have time for it with my class load this semester. I think it's more nostalgia than anything. But my point is, you're right, volunteering elsewhere in the community would be a good thing.

[Fargood]

Do they go into the whole area of Adam-god and Jesus and Satan being brothers?

You learn about the Adam/god and Jesus-Satan brother thing in seminary. Unlike normal churches, you have to go the "seminary" early every weekday morning between the ages of 14-18. Every year you learn a new book of the Mormon gospel. When I was going the first year was Old Testament, year 2 was New Testament, Year 3 was Book of Mormon, Year 4 was Doctrine & Covenents, Pearl of Great Price and other Morman propaganda.

Seminary is where you learn a lot of the more nefarious Mormon beliefs. Then, they skuttle you off to a mission or BYU so that you can start breeding or trolling for more members before you have any ability to think critically about the four years you just wasted being brainwashed.

Most Mormon teenagers are so docile because they are sleep-deprived, overworked and under tremendous pressure to be the embodiment of absolute Mormon perfection.

Of course, the trick is on them, because in Mormon life, no one is ever good enough.

[freejoytoo]

I think a great deal of people are attracted to Mormonism because of the community aspect. The practise of a strong community isn't as common in certain areas and I think several people need it, and the LDS church offers it spades. That's a big factor in what makes them think it's the true church, IMO - they have easy access to a welcome community and sense of belonging.

[DarkAnts]

This is one topic that I dont discuss in polite company. Its along the same lines of are Mormons Christians. There are strong opinions on both sides.

[fundies_like_zombies]

This blog is by a mormon -

citymousescountryhouse.blogspot.co.uk/

latest post is about having the family sealed.

[emily]

You learn about the Adam/god and Jesus-Satan brother thing in seminary. Unlike normal churches, you have to go the "seminary" early every weekday morning between the ages of 14-18. Every year you learn a new book of the Mormon gospel. When I was going the first year was Old Testament, year 2 was New Testament, Year 3 was Book of Mormon, Year 4 was Doctrine & Covenents, Pearl of Great Price and other Morman propaganda.

Seminary is where you learn a lot of the more nefarious Mormon beliefs. Then, they skuttle you off to a mission or BYU so that you can start breeding or trolling for more members before you have any ability to think critically about the four years you just wasted being brainwashed.

Most Mormon teenagers are so docile because they are sleep-deprived, overworked and under tremendous pressure to be the embodiment of absolute Mormon perfection.

Of course, the trick is on them, because in Mormon life, no one is ever good enough.

I attended release-time seminary, which means that the LDS population at my high school was large enough that the church bought a house across from my school and turned it into a classroom where kids went during their off period. This certainly meant that more youth attended, since we didn't have to sacrifice our mornings to be brainwashed.

It was in seminary that I initially became extremely disillusioned with the church. During a lesson on the pre existence my teacher said that our earthly families are given to us based on our pre mortal behavior. Those of us who were righteous before birth were placed in worthy, church-going families, and those of us who weren't as good were born into troubled families. I raised my hand and said does that mean God didn't think I deserved a worthy family, and he basically said yeah. I didn't go back to seminary after that, and came to the realization that it was all bull.

For the people saying, "Yeah, it's demanding, and they expect you to give them money, but you can leave if you want to," yes, you can. Now. That was not always the case. Until very recently, the Mormon Church refused, point blank, to remove the names of former Mormons from the membership rolls at the request of people who wanted to leave the church, because keeping those names on their rolls allowed them to claim inflated membership numbers. So people would leave the church, but when they tried to make that official and get their names off of the rolls (to prevent missionaries contacting them in an attempt to talk them back into being active, for instance), the church refused to comply. There was a lawsuit about it, it was ruled that no, a church cannot force people to remain members, even in name only, if they wish to leave, and now you can get your name scrubbed from the rolls, but it's a time-consuming process, deliberately made so by the church. There are a hell of a lot of stories floating around out there of bishops "losing" name removal requests and people being given the runaround by the church administration in Salt Lake when trying to get their names removed. These stories typically end in having a lawyer write a letter, which finally results in prompt action by the church. I've read too many of these stories to think that they're all just aberrations. Likewise, I've seen too many descriptions of people who have left the church being lovebombed by members or repeatedly harassed by missionaries attempting to talk them back into activity to say that it's easy as "just leave, if you want to." The Mormon church does not like losing members, and especially if you have other family members who are still active, it is not at all unusual to find yourself the recipient of a ton of person to person concern trolling from members of your former ward.

I sent my resignation letter to my bishop and cc'd the church office building about three years ago. When you send your letter, they're supposed to contact you and make sure you really mean it (and guilt you into rescinding) but I never heard from anyone. I know they got the letter because I sent it certified mail. The bishop also happened to be my abusive ex's uncle, so I have a feeling he 'lost' my letter. I later heard from my mother (who is a practicing member) that her ward clerk contacted her to let her know that my membership records had been sent back to her ward because they didn't have a current address for me. How convenient. So now I'm still on the church's records as a member, which pisses me off. I know a couple people in law school who might be able to hook me up with something on legal letterhead, but I hesitate doing it because then they'd have my address again, and they'd send missionaries over. Last time the missionaries came to re-activate me, I heard them mocking me in a sing-song voice through the closed door after I politely told them to scram.

For years I have not allowed my mother to have my address or phone number because she continually forwards my contact information to the church. The church has become the dividing force in my relationship with my mother, since she feels obligated to do her part to ensure my place in heaven. I knew when I decided to officially leave that it would cause a rift, but I also knew I did not want to be a part of the Mormon game anymore.

It's frickin' HARD to be a Mormon. You are required to be at church almost every day for some non-sense function. You have multiple "jobs" within the church. Plus there's tons of pressure on women to have (at least outwardly) the perfect, large family. Mormon women carry the heaviest burden. Clothes are expected to be homemade, children are expected to be perfectly behaved, houses are supposed to be spotless and, oh, don't forget the 15 million jobs she has at the church, which probably includes cleaning the ENTIRE church every once in a while.

I have no doubt that the LDS church doesn't pay it's clergy primarily due to the fact that it would take away from the millions (billions?) that they have in the bank already. How do you think they became that rich in the first place? The 'calling' thing really turns me off, especially since they say that callings are inspired by the lord. In my final year attending church (which I only did to appease my mother) I received a calling in my student ward in Provo. The bishop asked me to be a member of the Relief Society presidency, saying that he was inspired by god to select me. Of course he had to ask if I was temple-worthy, and I lied and said yes, afraid of what would happen if I said no to a calling. So for about six months "the lord" had me leading and teaching women on Sundays, after I would come home from smoking and fornicating the night before. Sounds like a solid system, no?

In regards to Mormon women having it the hardest, I completely agree. I wasn't born into the church (my mother converted shortly before I turned eight) but to this day I still struggle with finding my life's purpose. I was trained and subtly brainwashed into thinking my value is based on marrying and bearing children. I was not brought up to value education or acceptance of other cultures, I was brought up thinking my value as a person was based on being a good housewife. The only thing I know for sure I'd succeed at is being a mom, and I'm struggling to figure out anything else.

[Jessica]

I think a great deal of people are attracted to Mormonism because of the community aspect. The practise of a strong community isn't as common in certain areas and I think several people need it, and the LDS church offers it spades. That's a big factor in what makes them think it's the true church, IMO - they have easy access to a welcome community and sense of belonging.

Yes. The community in the LDS church is GREAT! Everyone is so friendly, so close-knit, like a big happy family. But when you leave it's either a) as if you don't exist anymore or b) you're constantly bombarded with Church materials left on your doorstep (I was given 4 copies of Daughters In my Kingdom in a week last year!). There are some wonderful, relaxed people who will just let you be if you leave, but in my experience it's the exception and not the rule. That's what's so scary about leaving. You don't know how your friends will react--if they'll still love and respect you or if they'll completely erase you from their life. It's SCARY to think about losing people who have become so close to your heart. But at the same time, it makes you realize that anyone who drops you like that isn't a real friend. But it's still scary!

[freejoytoo]

I have a bit of a weird fascination with Mormonism. I think it's because the entire thing sounds so laughable yet so many people buy it and the doctrine is just CRAZY. I knew two girls who were raised Mormon and both left, but members are very rare here in the UK, or at least to my knowledge.