Is Mormonism a Cult?

[freejoytoo]

It comes off as cultish to me as there is so much control and it seems to be more about Joseph Smith and following the 'prophets' than the Bible. I'm personally of the view that the majority of organised religions are on the slope of being cults, but anyway. I think what gets me to about Mormonism is that as it is so young everything about it has been written down and it's beeen proven to have been basically made up be a creep who wanted several wives and America as the centre of Christianity, yet people still buy into it!

That was rather long winded but yes, I'd call it a cult. Not on the same level as FLDS but still a cult.

[lilwriter85]

I go back and fourth between "Mormonism is a cult"? thing. I think location sometimes makes it look more cult like. I have read blogs from Mormon wives outside of Utah and they are a bit different than the Utah Mormons. The Utah Mormon culture comes off as a bit cultish. Sometime back there was a Mormon related thread here and someone said that her aunt was a Mormon and that there was a time in which she was asked to turn over her tax returns.

I also remember some discussion on exmormon about bishops asking for tax returns from their ward members. There are some Mormons that are pretty extreme. There was a documentary made back in the early 2000s called Prom Night In Kansas City. Part of the documentary focused on a group of Mormons that didn't like dancing and the kids interviewed said that they only have friends who are Mormons. I have also observed stuff like that on some Mormon blogs where the bloggers admit they are only friends with Mormons. Sometimes the bloggers don't admit it, but you can tell that most or all of their friends are Mormon.

There are Mormons that more laid back and are friends with non-Mormons. The more laid back Mormons are sometimes less conservative about certain things. Hane brings up a good point about the clergy in the LDS church.

[themadapple]

I don't think the Mormons are a strict cult in the way, say, Scientology, The Family International (Children of God) or the Peoples Temple are/were cults. Still, demanding tax returns and other financial records as proof seems invasive and does point to some cultish behaviors, particularly as temple recommends and standing are contingent on providing these documents.

I'm not a Mormon and the only ones I've encountered were missionaries to whom I gave the brush off, unenthusiastic younger people and one of my German professors. Still, I have the impression that everything, including home and personal life, is bound up in some way with the church and its teachings.

There are many organizations that demand a fee for continued membership. That isn't so out of the ordinary. That this same organization is a religious one with many adherents who sincerely believe that this is the way to truth, life, and that following its teachings will lead you to glory in an afterlife, that going against them in any way will make you lost, is what makes this policy dubious.

[Deleted03]

What makes them seem non-cultish to me is that you can leave of you want to. I know this can cause immense heartache for people if their families don't support this decision (which is the case in many religions and not unique to Mormonism), but if you really want to leave, they will not force you to stay.

The money thing, I get how that would seem controlling or like an invasion of privacy. It just doesn't seem cultish to me, but I do see why that would be a red flag.

My friend got talked to through a special meeting with several men trying to intimidate him because someone reported a private conversation with him about his doubts. He decided to quit before they pronounced excommunication which they would have, now half his family won't talk to him.

I think it's a little more complicated than you can leave if you want to. You can be kicked out for having doubts, for offering information that is banned by the church (not a red list book, historical facts about Joseph Smith and the early founders), and then your family won't talk to you. I think that's where the limit is drawn that put in on the more liberal end of cult, but still in it IMO. If you bully your members when they express doubt or just look for historical information on their church (in addition to the strict implementation of the tithe.... can everyone afford to give 10% to the church? I don't think so, and the missionaries have to pay about 450$ a month while on their missions - mandatory for men! And let's talk about isolation during the missions. They have one afternoon a week of freedom and that's it! They can't have contact with their families, and contacts are scrutinized).

Yes there are more extreme cults, but it definitely is somewhere on the spectrum.

[lilwriter85]

Another thing that comes off cultish about Mormonism is that is pretty difficult for people to leave the church. My uncle's ex wife was Mormon until she was 12. Her family and several relatives left the church in support of an uncle who came out of the closet as gay. For awhile, the bishop of their ward was calling them often trying to get them to go back. I have heard other stories about the bishop or church officials harassing people who have left the church.

Some of you probably read the GOMI thread about Stephanie Nielson and Courtney Kendrick who are Mormon mommies. That thread is interesting because debates about Mormonism happen often. There was a poster there who said he/she found Mormonism attractive because of the strong community attitude that Mormons seem to have. I have noticed that too. Mormon communities tend to have fun compared to people like the Maxwells. Anyway, a couple of GOMI posters who were ex-Mormons or connected to ex Mormons stated examples of the church being too controlling etc. One GOMI poster said he/she could never find anything inspriational about the LDS church because of the treatment of women.

[valsa]

I googled "criteria for a cult" and Mormonism does seem to include most, if not all, of the criteria from most of the sources I read (different sources have different criteria but most list the same core characteristics)

This seems to be the most common list of characteristics found in dangerous cults: (my comments are in italics)

Dr. Robert J. Lifton's Eight Criteria for Thought Reform

Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large. (different churches may preach varying levels of isolation but I think things like the sacred underwear (preventing people from being able to wear clothing that may fit in better with non-Mormon crowds), food and drink restrictions, and preventing non-Mormons from attending temple weddings and other sacred events do isolate Mormons)

Mystical Manipulation. There is manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but in fact were planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority or spiritual advancement or some special gift or talent that will then allow the leader to reinterpret events, scripture, and experiences as he or she wishes. (check- Smith started it and, from what I understand, various leaders still continue it)

Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here. (check)

Confession. Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members' "sins," "attitudes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders. (check- not only moral sins but also the sin of not paying your membership dues)

Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism. (check)

Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clichés, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking. (check- see: Celestial Kingdom, Terrestrial Kingdom, and Telestial Kingdom)

Doctrine over person. Member's personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group. (check- see: any person who spoke out against the Mormon church funding Prop 8)

Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also. (check- many people who've left Mormonism say they've been shunned, non-Mormons (whether former Mormons or not) are not allowed at temple events such as weddings, and the Mormon church definitely tries to convent people)

Then again, I'm personally of the opinion (like someone mentioned above) that most religions are just cults that we've gotten used to. Christianity itself is probably the biggest cult out there (originally a cult of Judaism) and Islam's along that track as well.

[Fargood]

I'm a third generation (former) Mormon. I was raised in the church, but left when I went to college. As a former member, I believe it is a cult.

Some of the discussion on this thread compares the LDS church to Scientology or other "true" cults. The difference is between theory vs. practice. In theory, the LDS church is a cult: it isolates members, requires substantial financial contributions, demands absolute obedience, etc. However, in practice, most Mormons aren't all together that great at doing everything required.

It's frickin' HARD to be a Mormon. You are required to be at church almost every day for some non-sense function. You have multiple "jobs" within the church. Plus there's tons of pressure on women to have (at least outwardly) the perfect, large family. Mormon women carry the heaviest burden. Clothes are expected to be homemade, children are expected to be perfectly behaved, houses are supposed to be spotless and, oh, don't forget the 15 million jobs she has at the church, which probably includes cleaning the ENTIRE church every once in a while.

My point is that while the LDS church maybe doesn't rob you blind upfront, the demands placed on its members is a form of cult-practicing. They just rob you blind slower.

[Anxious Girl]

So is Stephenie Meyer (Twilight) and Brandon Sanderson (Mistborn). Meyer is more offensive in my opinion because her books aren't even good, lmao.

They're bloody offensive even if they were good literature (which they're not). I will search for the LJ poster who compares the Cullens to Mormons (the good "vegetarian" vampires) and the Vulturi who are based in Italy to the Vatican's Roman Catholics. Native Americans are seen as descendants of Israelis who crossed here apparantly (Mormons, please correct me if I'm wrong about this), and since they are descendants of the Israeli Jews is why Alice can't see Bella's future when Jacob is with her. It's all kinds of WTF crazy when you interpret the series as a Mormon propranga that's disguised as teenage abstinance porn. (Or maybe I'm just crazy? :? Somebody tell me if I'm crazy.) Meyer may or may not have meant to use those stereotypes, but she did. * goes off to find linkage *

[Fargood]

They're bloody offensive even if they were good literature (which they're not). I will search for the LJ poster who compares the Cullens to Mormons (the good "vegetarian" vampires) and the Vulturi who are based in Italy to the Vatican's Roman Catholics. Native Americans are seen as descendants of Israelis who crossed here apparantly (Mormons, please correct me if I'm wrong about this), and since they are descendants of the Israeli Jews is why Alice can't see Bella's future when Jacob is with her. It's all kinds of WTF crazy when you interpret the series as a Mormon propranga that's disguised as teenage abstinance porn. (Or maybe I'm just crazy? Somebody tell me if I'm crazy.) Meyer may or may not have meant to use those stereotypes, but she did. * goes off to find linkage *

My neighbor is still a TBM ("true believing Mormon") and she had me over for a Mary Kay party the other day. The party was full of young, single women who have nothing better to do than salivate over the Twilight nonsense. The Mormon youth are buying whatever fluff the Twilight books are hawking.

[freejoytoo]

And what happened when a Mormon scientist, determined to prove that Native Americans were descended from Israelites discovered they weren't? He was excommunicated.

[lilwriter85]

There are some Mormons who dislike the Twlight series mostly because of Meyer's writing. I remember checking Meyer's IMDB page and someone said "I'm a Mormon and I think she sucks". There are Mormons who are probably very loyal to their Mormon celebs. NieNie was praising Brandon Flowers on Instagram the other day. There were Mormon bloggers that talk about David Archuleta often. A bit off-topic, I was reading earlier about Romney using a quote from Friday Night Lights for his campaign. A few articles have said that Mittens and Ann are fans of the show. I can see some Mormons disliking that show for several reasons and some of Romney's fellow Mormons are probably shaking their heads when they have heard about him using a quote from FNL.

[lilwriter85]

And what happened when a Mormon scientist, determined to prove that Native Americans were descended from Israelites discovered they weren't? He was excommunicated.

I hadn't heard about that. I remember reading some article where Mormons kept trying to defend the Lamanite/Nephite theory. I remember some LDS higher up tried to say that later intermarriages messed with Native Americans' DNA.

[MissBeaufort]

Some of the discussion on this thread compares the LDS church to Scientology or other "true" cults. The difference is between theory vs. practice. In theory, the LDS church is a cult: it isolates members, requires substantial financial contributions, demands absolute obedience, etc. However, in practice, most Mormons aren't all together that great at doing everything required.

This. If all of the rules were followed in their purest form, it would definitely be a cult. After all, strictly speaking, you're not supposed to be close friends with non-Mormons or date non-Mormons (or heaven forbid, marry them). The church is supposed to have intimate knowledge about and control over your money. You're basically supposed to make every aspect of your life relate back to the church, not to mention that you're expected to give up 2 years of your life to preach to others whether you want to or not. In theory, here should be no privacy from the church and absolutely no secrets.

Realistically, though, the church is too big and thinly spread out. I've been told that in parts of Utah the amount of control they have can be a little frightening, but it's pretty minimal everywhere else. They can't demand the rigorous standards that the theology technically does. (Or, well, they do anyway, but they have a really hard time enforcing it.) So on the ground, not really a cult. Still a pretty invasive religion, though. :?

[lilwriter85]

They're bloody offensive even if they were good literature (which they're not). I will search for the LJ poster who compares the Cullens to Mormons (the good "vegetarian" vampires) and the Vulturi who are based in Italy to the Vatican's Roman Catholics. Native Americans are seen as descendants of Israelis who crossed here apparantly (Mormons, please correct me if I'm wrong about this), and since they are descendants of the Israeli Jews is why Alice can't see Bella's future when Jacob is with her. It's all kinds of WTF crazy when you interpret the series as a Mormon propranga that's disguised as teenage abstinance porn. (Or maybe I'm just crazy? :? Somebody tell me if I'm crazy.) Meyer may or may not have meant to use those stereotypes, but she did. * goes off to find linkage *

I remember reading a blog it wasn't on LJ that described the same things about Meyer using her books as Mormon propaganda. There are other writers who do similar things in basing stories on religion and theology. There have been theories that Diablo Cody based a lot of the plot and characters in Jennifer's Body on Catholic symbolism.

[Anxious Girl]

I remember reading a blog it wasn't on LJ that described the same things about Meyer using her books as Mormon propaganda. There are other writers who do similar things in basing stories on religion and theology. There have been theories that Diablo Cody based a lot of the plot and characters in Jennifer's Body on Catholic symbolism.

OT: I hear that The Chronicles of Narnia has a lot of Anglican symbolism, and that The Lord of the Rings has a lot of Roman Catholic symbolism. Is it true for The Lord of the rings? I haven't read it. I read Narnia, and it's so close to being right up in-your-face-obviously-symbolism-but-yet-you-can't-tell-right-away, if that makes any sense.

[lilwriter85]

OT: I hear that The Chronicles of Narnia has a lot of Anglican symbolism, and that The Lord of the Rings has a lot of Roman Catholic symbolism. Is it true for The Lord of the rings? I haven't read it. I read Narnia, and it's so close to being right up in-your-face-obviously-symbolism-but-yet-you-can't-tell-right-away, if that makes any sense.

I have heard about LOTR and Catholic symbolism before.

[NerdyHil]

The money aspect especially showing your tax return is a red flag for me as are the confessions to the bishop. The temple ceremonies are too weird for me to take seriously as is the Mormon view of the afterlife.

I tend to tune out (not necessarily believe it's a cult but close) any group that is based on revelations of one person. That includes $cientology, LDS/Mormon, Gothard, etc.

My father always told me to run from any church or similar organization that wanted to see tax returns or bank balances so they could assess your contribution. He also said never join a religious group that charged for intro classes or a set fee for membership. I think in this area, he was onto something.

I'm not trying to hand-slap, but I was raised Mormon,although I'm not practicing/active currently, and I'm from a long line of Mormons(Polygamous great-great-grandfather, family that crossed the plains with handcarts and such) but I've never heard of tax returns or other financial statements being demanded from anyone.I was active all of my childhood and early adulthood. That said, I can see why someone could call the LDS church a cult if a person has only had contact with Mormon culture. The culture is painfully weird, especially in the jello belt.

Oh, and Hi! to O Latin. It's nice to see another member from Idaho!

[shedemei]

I agree with Abigail and Sophie about Mormonism being a semi-cult or on the slippery slope to being one.

If anything, the LDS church is becoming less cultlike over time. They have historically changed doctrine and practice extensively over time to become more mainstream.

[emesbe]

I'm not trying to hand-slap, but I was raised Mormon,although I'm not practicing/active currently, and I'm from a long line of Mormons(Polygamous great-great-grandfather, family that crossed the plains with handcarts and such) but I've never heard of tax returns or other financial statements being demanded from anyone.I was active all of my childhood and early adulthood. That said, I can see why someone could call the LDS church a cult if a person has only had contact with Mormon culture. The culture is painfully weird, especially in the jello belt.

Oh, and Hi! to O Latin. It's nice to see another member from Idaho!

I was born and grew up in Idaho! Yay!

[emily]

...I've never heard of tax returns or other financial statements being demanded from anyone.I was active all of my childhood and early adulthood. That said, I can see why someone could call the LDS church a cult if a person has only had contact with Mormon culture.

This. I'm a former Mormon and have attended many of the end of year meetings called Tithing Settlement. Each member is requested to make an appointment at the end of the year (usually taken in 10 or 15 minute slots) where the bishop will give the member a piece of paper detailing every tithe they've made during that calendar year, as it appears on the church records. The member is asked to affirm that the tithing given equals ten percent of their income from that year, and the member is given a copy of the paperwork so they can write it off on their taxes. My mother always took my little brother and I to her appointments, since she was single and usually had no babysitter. Kids are also required to affirm that they are paying "a full tithe." I never ever saw or heard of having to provide tax returns or proof of income. It is all based on the honor system, as far as I have experienced.

I also agree with those who have said that Utah Mormons are closer to being cult-like than Mormons outside of Utah. My mother remarried when I was in high school, and moved to a suburb of Salt Lake City. The Mormons there (and also in parts of Idaho) are a different breed altogether.

[desertvixen]

For anyone interested in the above-mentioned LJ blogger take on Twilight and its Mormon symbology (or possible symbology), here you go:

http://stoney321.livejournal.com/317176 ... rmat=light

It's hilarious.

[Coconut Flan]

My neighbor down the street left the LDS over being asked for financial records. Perhaps it varies by stake? My father had a friend who was LDS and talked about having to turn in copies of his tax return also. I've obviously never been LDS so my experience is all second hand.

[Renting with Raggles]

The best guide I've seen for assessing the cult status of a group was really simple: the only criteria was how easy it is for members to leave. $cientology, which actively harasses ex-members, or groups that practice shunning would qualify; quiverfull families/ associations like ATI, which prevent children from obtaining the education or skills that would allow them to function independently in normal society are also classified as cults under this definition. The LDS church does guilt people into tithing (the extent seems to vary by individual wards), and sinking money and time into something generally makes people reluctant to leave, so you could say they're pushing into cultish-ness while obeying the letter of the law. The Catholics aren't a money sink - they'll be really passive aggressive about leaving your name on baptismal records if you leave, but you don't lose anything by going.

I don't think the standard definitions of a cult which were listed above are as useful, because they apply to almost all religions.

I'm rather unhappy that anyone would want to join a religion that actively campaigns to prevent same sex marriage. The "family friendly" facade of groups like the Mormons really shits me. I get that people who were born in the faith have an emotional connection to it, but adult converts? I guess they must really like stripping others of the rights of citizenship they themselves enjoy, 'cause that's where your money's going when you sign up for that shit, however you look at it. When a lesbian's children are prevented from seeing their mother in her last moments you can have a good mental wank about how awesomely family-friendly you are - friendly to the "real" families, as Lady Romney likes to say. Fun times. :roll:

[NerdyHil]

My neighbor down the street left the LDS over being asked for financial records. Perhaps it varies by stake? My father had a friend who was LDS and talked about having to turn in copies of his tax return also. I've obviously never been LDS so my experience is all second hand.

After reading this story I am honestly disturbed by that happening. I hope my last post wasn't too pants on fire-y in your direction. This story of your neighbor and family friend is way cult-y. Like more FLDS than LDS.

[Maude]

I consider the LDS to be a quasi-cult. They have some qualifiers (organized leadership, exclusivity, legalism), but your average Mormon isn't isolated from the rest of the world, which is something I consider a 'must-have' to qualify.