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Australian Prime Minister Speech About Misogyny


luckystone

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If you haven't lived in Australia or studied Australia's public health policies for Aboriginals then I can see how you might be concerned.

There are NO words to undo the wrongs that have been done to aboriginal people in the past. However there are many many well funded public health schemes in place now.

They are not all working but they are well funded.

I will give some examples. There is an immunisation bus that follows children from camp to camp 100's Kilometres in Oz to make sure they are up to date with their immunisation. This is not the exact website but just a quick example.

http://www.health.act.gov.au/c/health?a ... 74036&sid=

The 'No school no pool policy' which aimed to reduced truancy and had the unexpected bonus of reducing trachoma because the children's eyes were washed in the pool.

http://www.health.gov.au/internet/publi ... 4-story-03.

We have public health programs addressing the health of aboriginal peoples dogs. Dogs are very important in the aboriginal culture.

http://www.health.act.gov.au/c/health?a ... 74036&sid=

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If you haven't lived in Australia or studied Australia's public health policies for Aboriginals then I can see how you might be concerned.

There are NO words to undo the wrongs that have been done to aboriginal people in the past. However there are many many well funded public health schemes in place now.

They are not all working but they are well funded.

I will give some examples. There is an immunisation bus that follows children from camp to camp 100's Kilometres in Oz to make sure they are up to date with their immunisation. This is not the exact website but just a quick example.

http://www.health.act.gov.au/c/health?a ... 74036&sid=

The 'No school no pool policy' which aimed to reduced truancy and had the unexpected bonus of reducing trachoma because the children's eyes were washed in the pool.

http://www.health.gov.au/internet/publi ... 4-story-03.

We have public health programs addressing the health of aboriginal peoples dogs. Dogs are very important in the aboriginal culture.

http://www.health.act.gov.au/c/health?a ... 74036&sid=

Sorry if I missed a post specifically about healthcare that this is in reference to, but if it is in reply to freejoytoo:

These are great initiatives. However, they do not negate more than two centuries of oppression and prejudice. Racism towards Aboriginal people is very real and is happening today. It is a constant and pervasive part of everyday life for many Aboriginal people. It affects their ability to get a job, obtain and keep a driver's license, provide for their families, gain access to education, and countless other things many of us take for granted. It is absolutely real and it is absolutely a reason to be concerned.

Also, there is no one homogenous "[A]boriginal culture". There are many, very much varied, Aboriginal cultures all around Australia. Some of them have commonalities, but many of them do not.

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What I think the biggest issue is the blame game a lot of Aussie's do, which I am guilty of myself. Saying, 'its not my problem' or 'I'm not contributing to that!' Then in fact saying or doing something that does indeed contribute to these exact problems we complain about!

Then either ignoring the big issues, and trivializing them, making fun of them - trying to humour our way out of things that are hard and uncomfortable and in fact difficult to change and correct, instead of admitting we just might not have the answers or we might be WRONG!

A lot of people do this knee jerk reaction of "I don't have to fix it! - I didn't do it - It doesn't affect me!!!" All the while whinging about it everywhere and anytime. Then going on to do exactly what they complain about. That's the real problem I think and have witnessed from a lot of people who claim they are 'dinky di - true blu Aussie larrikins!"

We need to get over the social awareness and how we appear and act to everyone, and just be realistic and start walking all that talk that we seem to do so much!!!

For what its worth; I've been wholey impressed by the kids coming out of the highschools at the moment who really get it! They are sensitive and know the issues and So I think we can expect change to come... It just a lot of people are still lingering on to this smart-allic larrikinism that is essential de-humanising and not actually funny when dealing with seriously issues!

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As said above - great initiatives, but it does't negate the racism. It seems to me that amongst the general public there is a strong opinion that Aborginals either shouldn't be 'our problem' or just create more problems for not wanting to use options offered by the government. Aside from that, it jut appalls me that it's seen as a laugh to mock them and other ethnic minorities. Obviously I don't think all Australian people think that way, but I have definitely noticed this view. And what's sad is that those who seem most derogatary about Aboriginal people are the same ones who seem most vocal about tough immigration policies because they don't want other countries 'taking over' Australia! The irony!

Going back to the Q and A episode, I remember members of the panel discussing how to combat casual racism and what they had observed and Lenny Henry was just looking stunned. A lot of what was being talked about would not fly in Britain.

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I'm in a liberal electorate, Christopher Pyne is our MP. He's pretty much in Abbott's boy's club. He won fairly convincingly but before he was elected I think we were labor. I'm hoping it won't be a wasted vote.

Please don't think I was approving of the chador! I was simply glad to see people of many religions, and I was pleased that despite the fact it was a small town, they were free to walk to the mosque without fear of ignorant comments or racism. These weren't extremists, they are not doomed like the Duggar girls. They were ladies attending a liberal university with uncovered faces. Several were in my world religions class and I believed them when they said it was their choice to wear chador. They were living on campus at the university, they were single and they had absolute control over their own lives. They were actually really fun, strong women who I had a great time with.

I was watching the news tonight, and I was horrified to hear Tony Abbott (who was criticising the campaign for the UN position Australia just gained) say, and I quote: "...the position what we won". He doesn't speak like a world leader. He talks like some okker bloke who's 'down the pub' after work. How does that saying go? 'You can never go broke appealing to the lowest common denominator', and he does - from his speech, to his attitude, to his religion.

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As said above - great initiatives, but it does't negate the racism. It seems to me that amongst the general public there is a strong opinion that Aborginals either shouldn't be 'our problem' or just create more problems for not wanting to use options offered by the government. Aside from that, it jut appalls me that it's seen as a laugh to mock them and other ethnic minorities. Obviously I don't think all Australian people think that way, but I have definitely noticed this view. And what's sad is that those who seem most derogatary about Aboriginal people are the same ones who seem most vocal about tough immigration policies because they don't want other countries 'taking over' Australia! The irony!

Okay, I'm going to have to respond now, because I don't like the insinuation that we're all white convicts who hate everyone. I think you'd have to look quite hard to find a racist Australian who simultaneously hates Indigenous people and also hates immigration. If you did, they would probably be extremely uneducated and ignorant and not representative of the population as a whole.

Australia is extremely pro-immigration. Around a third of Australians were born overseas, and a further third had at least one parent born overseas (like me). So that's over half the population who are either an immigrant or first generation. If you go on Wikipedia and look up immigrants by population and net migration statistics, Australia is higher in both than UK, USA, Canada, New Zealand etc. which I think firstly points to a diverse society, but secondly, if you really think more people are against immigration than in other western nations (doubtful), it's not necessarily a fair comparison when the immigration rates are doubled in Australia.

What is often considered a "tough on immigration" policy in Australia isn't about lowering levels of immigration - it's about stopping people arriving on boats. That's actually a pretty complex issue, and it's different from the kind of anti-immigration politics of, say, the British National Party, which seems to represent the views of a lot of people in the UK, or similar parties in the rest of Europe. We had an equivalent here called One Nation which crashed and burned and had nothing like the level of support as BNP.

With respect to Indigenous issues, I think the immigration is ironically part of that, because as somebody said earlier, there's a "not my problem" attitude. As I already discussed, most people or their parents were born overseas, so there's this attitude that even if you are going to hold people responsible for what their ancestors did (which isn't exactly fair), it wasn't even THEIR ancestors, because the majority of the population had their ancestors in Europe or Asia or Africa 50 years ago and definitely 200 years ago. So I think this inability to do things as an individual doesn't help, because if somebody is the child of immigrants who probably were themselves persecuted, and does not personally discriminate, they probably feel like there's not much they can do to help Indigenous people (and I even feel uncomfortable using the word help). Collectively, these paralysed (not racist) individuals make up most of Australia. Unhelpful, but understandable.

Believe me, there is huge public support for reconciliation as it is called, there have been huge marches (300,000 people in one city), there was the sorry speech which went a long way, and it's customary at all public lectures to acknowledge the traditional owners of whichever land you are standing on. Unfortunately you can't take back the past.

As well as the health policies mentioned above, there is significant social support for Indigenous people, including money to study, places in university and job quotas allocated etc. Indigenous people are represented in the Australian Public Service about as much as they are in the population (>2%), so that's another improvement. Also, a lot of Indigenous people face unique challenges, such as living in extremely remote areas thousands of kilometres away from infrastructure and services (as do non-Indigenous Australians too), so there are a lot of very unusual factors in this country. And like with any culture, you have to balance traditional cultural rights with modern society, there have been some nasty child rape cases where perpetrators have claimed it is their right because they are in a traditional marriage, what do you do when you want to protect children from sexual abuse but not have another stolen generation?

Does that make it all okay? No, but it's a really tough issue to solve. There are whole departments working on this and they're still struggling.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's a lot more complicated than just a casually racist attitude towards Indigenous people from a few ignorant Australians. And ignorant and racist people are in every country.

Going back to the Q and A episode, I remember members of the panel discussing how to combat casual racism and what they had observed and Lenny Henry was just looking stunned. A lot of what was being talked about would not fly in Britain.

Surely the fact it was on the show and brought up for discussion was a sign that it wasn't acceptable in Australia either?

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As well as the health policies mentioned above, there is significant social support for Indigenous people, including money to study, places in university and job quotas allocated etc. Indigenous people are represented in the Australian Public Service about as much as they are in the population (>2%), so that's another improvement. Also, a lot of Indigenous people face unique challenges, such as living in extremely remote areas thousands of kilometres away from infrastructure and services (as do non-Indigenous Australians too), so there are a lot of very unusual factors in this country. And like with any culture, you have to balance traditional cultural rights with modern society, there have been some nasty child rape cases where perpetrators have claimed it is their right because they are in a traditional marriage, what do you do when you want to protect children from sexual abuse but not have another stolen generation?

Does that make it all okay? No, but it's a really tough issue to solve. There are whole departments working on this and they're still struggling.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's a lot more complicated than just a casually racist attitude towards Indigenous people from a few ignorant Australians. And ignorant and racist people are in every country.

Just look at the two bolded statements and you'll see the problems with the so called "support" that is offered. The fact that this support isn't anywhere NEAR where the issues and people are who need them, means that its not good enough. Whats worse is the attitude that says, these things ARE infact good enough, and that the Aboriginal community have everything laid on for them, so its their fault if they don't take all this help and improve themselves. Its incredibly ignorant. If anything it sounds you are saying, 'what about me' which I am so sick of hearing from people in this country. People who don't understand the real issues.

Fact is in the areas where they are, as much as people say there are these initiatives and help for them, there really aren't. I've seen it first hand. Let me enlighten you.

Lets start with housing. I was raised in a small country town in the middle of NSW. I lived in Department of Housing (ie Government/Council Housing) so there were a lot of Aboriginal people in my street and community. When you move into a house its usually FILTHY, almost dilapidated and infested with roaches and occasional mice.

The house we moved into as a kid and lived in for 15 odd years didn't even have carpet padding underneath the stained, holey, brown incredibly THIN carpet that was laid across wooden floor boards that had big gaps in between them, so you could actually see sunlight under your feet. It was infested with roaches. The walls were gross, had holes in them, some doors didn't even work, as didn't some windows, which were rotting and falling away. Same with the kitchen cupboards!

When my Dad and Mum complained to the department, they would say they have NO budget to fix these problems, that they were just cosmetic problems, NOT infact problems that hindered the housing or safety of the tenants. They saw this as 'good enough' for families to live in. There were many families in the same boat as us, with their houses looking the same and worse, getting the same responses!

My Dad put his own, very little money, he did had into getting that house fixed up. My mum cleaned and bug sprayed etc. All Just to make it LIVABLE before we got in. Most others in the community did the same. If they were able.

In a town of about 8000 with only 2 high-schools (one public, one catholic) there was very little specific help for the aboriginal community. They had either Special Ed classes for the very disabled kids, but nothing for specifically Aboriginal kids to get the reading and writing help they needed.

How does a struggling Aboriginal teen get these mythical jobs and university positions set aside for them, when they are silently dyslexic?

We had one charity, St. Vincent De Paul who did what they could. Mostly it was just food, clothing etc but even they could not keep up with the demand, and many times had to turn people away. So were lucky if you got some food once a month, which was just a small box of stuff that would barely feed a family of 2 for a week!

We had Two Doctors surgeries, NONE of them bulk billed. Even if you were aboriginal. Because all of that is upto the discretion of the doctor! So diseases got left untreated, until hospitalization happened. Even then, because it was a small country town hospital and couldn't spare the beds, they usually just gave you a prescription and sent you on your way. Or let you stay just overnight.

So tell me, do these things sound good enough to you? Would you live this way? Raise a child this way? Do you really think you know the real issues when you've never lived it? and think seriously that these initiatives are 'significant' to stop the trends that see Aboriginals living in 3rd and 4th+ Generational poverty?

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I know it's not good enough. In no way was I saying that "things are offered, so it's someone's fault if they aren't magically better", I was worried it would come across like that and I didn't mean it to. But you can't deny personal responsibility completely. I mentioned there are confounding factors like remote communities which can make things like health and education incredibly difficult for everyone there. The points I was making was 1) these problems are not due to racism, it is more complex than that 2) there are structures in place to try and make a difference and there are some improvements 3) there are unique factors as mentioned and 4) the not my problem thing mentioned is probably linked with the high immigration so a lot of people in Australia genuinely aren't sure what to do on a personal level and combined that looks like a more negative attitude than it actually is.

And no, I don't know all about it, but I certainly know more than some British person who thinks most are all callous and racist and just shout rude things at minorities all day. I found that incredibly offensive and I didn't just want to let it go. It sounds like she didn't even KNOW that there are massive government initiatives going towards assistance for these things, even though it's a slow process, which is why I was telling her. I wasn't saying "what about me?". Admittedly, I was defensive because I don't think my country should have a reputation like that when every country has poverty and racism. But I was just trying to give her some more info so at least she knows.

I realise a lot more needs to be done but I guess you have to try and balance rushing in with a good idea against the potential for this to be seen as interfering which has happened in the past. Your post was interesting, do you have any suggestions on in which way things could be better? Your post made me realise that probably not enough is being done in schools. I'm hoping health care will improve slightly due to the large numbers of doctors being trained now (too many!) and the fact a lot of them are specifically required to work in areas of need, I guess that doesn't mean more facilities though.

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ExoticFamiliarity said most of what I wanted to say, so I'll skip to the end.

While government health initiatives and social programs are hindered by institutionalised racism, that's only part of the story. To say we can't change what has happened in the past and that individuals can't help fix the major disadvantages Aboriginal people face is a cop out. What freejoytoo was referring to was the casual racism that Aboriginal people face in everyday life, today.

In my first 22 years of life, I think I was a passenger in a car that was pulled over maybe once. In 6 months of living with an older Aboriginal man, he was pulled over 5 times while I was in the car for "random license checks". An Aboriginal friend can't drive with her (also Aboriginal) husband in the passenger seat without being pulled over and having HIS license checked. The aforementioned man who I lived with has young adult nieces and nephews who can't go out on a Saturday night without getting their ID checked on the street (we have a curfew for minors), while I, as a white person going to the same district, have never been checked once. These police officers may not be able to singlehandedly bridge the poverty and education gaps, but they sure could stop making racist assumptions in their everyday lives. Same goes for the civilians who, every single day, shout racist slurs at complete strangers just because they had the gall to be out in public while having dark skin. We may not all be exposed to it but rest assured it is rampant.

As for the issue of people arriving by boat, it is not complicated at all. It is entirely legal for them to seek asylum here, and we are not admitting the same proportion of asylum seekers as most developed countries in the world. The vast majority of actually illegal immigrants to Australia arrive by plane, and from Europe.

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Is this from police driving alongside or something? I'd be surprised if you could identify someone's race just from them driving by, unless it's super slow, but okay. I'll accept your anecdotes. I still would be very surprised if casual racism was more of a problem here than other western countries. Look at the laws in Arizona for an example. Of course Australia needs to change, but so does the whole world. I don't think our problems are unique, nor do I think they are getting worse - just look back to see what progress we have been making.

We do ultimately accept almost all the people seeking asylum by boat, but it IS complicated because coming by boat is not ideal at all. It's an industry where people make huge profits from exploiting vulnerable people and taking their life savings to put them in an extremely unsafe situation just for the potential of coming to Australia - an those are the ones who actually get put on a boat, many more get scammed, or have their boat malfunction and get returned minus all their money. There are horrible tragedies where boats go missing all the time and people presumably drown, or we know they drown. We spend millions on search and rescue - and because people know we do that, they exploit it, such the case where the boat called and demanded we come and pick them up. We do have to balance the money for that in our budget against the things talked about above that we need in our budget - like helping poverty here.

I find it breathtaking that somebody could say that trying to stop the for-profit trafficking of vulnerable people in dangerous situations, while maintaining acceptance of asylum seekers, is not a complicated issue.

I'm also not sure where you're getting your statistics. UNHCR and Immigration Dept say Australia is in the top three resettlement countries for refugees (along with USA and Canada, which have much larger populations). Happy to be shown wrong if I've somehow misunderstood. Anyone arriving by plane has a valid visa to get through the airport, so by definition there are no illegal immigrants - are you talking about visa overstayers? If so, yes there are more of those arriving by plane than asylum seekers by boat, but then if they don't have a claim for asylum they almost all leave, either voluntarily (the majority) or because they are found and ejected. Not sure where you're going with that, of course it's good if more people arrive by plane instead of dangerous boat, it doesn't negate the complexity of the boat issue.

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Where I'm going with it is that we have more of a problem with white European illegal immigrants than we do with Indonesian or other non-white illegal immigrants, but you would never know that from looking at the commercial media or listening to most people talking about it. There are overstayers, yes, but also people who arrive without visas. Perth has a detention centre at the airport to deal with the problem, not sure about other cities.

What is not complicated is that the people arriving by boat are not arriving illegally, and if Australia didn't treat them like criminals, they wouldn't have to try to get here in illegal and dangerous ways.

As for not having more of a racism problem than other western countries, sure, I'll agree with that, but it's certainly not better. Lenny Henry and other British comedians - Stephen K Amos for example - have made note of the fact that they are surprised by the level of racism here. I saw Stephen K Amos at two Melbourne comedy festivals and he had different, horrific examples each time. If they are seeing racism here that they wouldn't see at home, and report that when they get home, that is a valid observation and it is reasonable for British people to take them at their word. It's a slightly different, but related, issue, but I remember seeing an interview with Kiruna Stamell, an actor from Australia who is short-statured, where she remarked that she feels more comfortable in the UK because she is not stopped on the street or stared at as much as she is at home. Not having spent a large amount of time in the UK I can't comment from personal experience, but the reports are not uncommon. Freejoytoo is perfectly reasonable to bring this up and we as Australians should take note that this is the perception of us that is out there in other parts of the world, and do what we can to model good behavior and speak out against racism when it does occur.

And yes - driving alongside, or from bumper stickers, I would imagine. You don't need to accept or not accept my anecdotes. Speak to the Aboriginal (or Asian, African, and so on) people that you know and see what they have to say themselves. I guarantee that they will have similar or worse stories to tell. As a white Australian of both first fleet and post-world war two heritage, I have been sheltered from the worst racism our country is responsible for, and don't claim to be an authority. From what I have seen though, I know it is reason to be alarmed, regardless of what the rest of the world might think or what problems other countries might have. As ExoticFamiliarity said, we won't change anything by just sitting back and worrying what the rest of the world thinks.

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The most racially violent place I've lived in happened to be in the UK. I'm sure if I lived in some parts of Australia, France etc I might have a similar experience.My sister in law is a Chinese Malaysian she emigrated to Australia from Malaysia because of racism.

I've been physically assaulted three times because of my race, twice in the UK once in Australia. There are ignorant people of every race and places to avoid the whole world over.

It's encouraging that there is an acknowledgement from our government, our tv stations, our sporting institutions that racism is a problem and there is no longer tolerance for it. We can only hope that will eventually trickle down to the rest of the population. Not just the born Aussies but all of the population. It's not just white Australians who are racist.I could write a realms of anecdotal evidence regarding that.

Human beings have a tendency to always think their tribe is better than your tribe and their imaginary friend in the sky is better than your imaginary friend in the sky.

Now if we could just stop Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott from talking about the Australian Guvment

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In working Customer Service for 7 years, I've seen firsthand how people stare, go quiet, look sideways, mumble to to one-another, or say racial things once someone is gone, when someone who looks specifically different to them are around!

In the town I'm in now, we have a large Sikh Temple and lots of Indian descent families. The gentlemen wear head turbans and the younger boys wear the head knot buns. While the women wear beautiful Sari dresses and various head-coverings.

You'd be surprise me amount of idiots think they are Muslim and don't even realize what the religion of Sikhism is and where it stems from.

After having served a gaggle of lovely ladies buying up lots of Indian groceries for a wedding they were preparing for in the family (which they were gleefully telling me about, and had about 4 generations of women together in their group with lists and Trolleys gathering their supplies!) I couldn't help but notice an otherwise plain white man giving them the stare-down as they walked away.

As I served him he said "I'm surprised they allow their women out on their own! You know those Muslim men don't like us seeing their women!" I look at him in shock and my head ticked over realizing what he said was serious, and I said "They are not Muslim, they are Sikh!" He countered "its all some sort of Islam!"... "No its not, you'll find!" I replied, he shrugged not caring at all and like I was the one ill-informed or being too sensitive, paid for his stuff and left. While the woman behind him just stared. However, after he left she remarked what an ass he was, so why didn't she say anything? Its this kind of plain and downright ignorance that gets me and the silent acceptance of said ignorance.

Why the heck in this country, anyone who calls people out on their racist, bigoted behaviour is in turn called things like "too politically correct, a butthurt, too sensitive, a bleeding heart etc, is beyond me!

No, not all are like that. But the fact that there are many who make out defender of racial rights is just 'too PC' and trying to give someone special treatment by *shock* learning that Sikhism isn't any type of Islamic faith really gives me the irrits.

So then you get people who won't defend or say anything to someone being an ass, like this guy was, because they 'just don't want to get involved' because of the PC ramifications. But who then has the power? The asses running their mouths off, spewing hate and ignorance!

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Where I'm going with it is that we have more of a problem with white European illegal immigrants than we do with Indonesian or other non-white illegal immigrants, but you would never know that from looking at the commercial media or listening to most people talking about it. There are overstayers, yes, but also people who arrive without visas. Perth has a detention centre at the airport to deal with the problem, not sure about other cities.

Um okay? The problem is to do with the complicated and risky nature of travel by boat. It's not to do with where the people are from. Border security is much easier in the controlled environment of the airport than marine search and rescue. The people in question are also paying an airline rather than a trafficker (well, usually, there are still dodgy practices), and probably didn't risk their lives. So it depends what you consider the "problem", I don't consider it to be the people arriving, which you do, I consider it to be the nature, safety and implications of that. Boat travel is increasing, so no longer do the vast majority of asylum seekers come by plane. Last year it hit 50-50 (previously 80-20).

What is not complicated is that the people arriving by boat are not arriving illegally, and if Australia didn't treat them like criminals, they wouldn't have to try to get here in illegal and dangerous ways.

I'm really trying to get my head around this one. They are not illegal. But we treat them like criminals. So they have to come here in illegal and dangerous ways. It's a bit circular. Are you saying that we are so horrible to people who arrive on visas then claim asylum at airports, that it's better to come on a boat? I'm confused both by what you're saying and how it's relevant to my point.

If you're talking about detention centres, for the record, 46% of asylum seekers are now in "community detention" which means a bridging visa, paid house, public school etc. while they await their assessment outcome (around 90% ultimately stay). They just have to check in with the authorities to let them know their whereabouts - not a bad situation. This has been done in the last couple of years under Gillard government. I like to hope we are moving forward.

As for not having more of a racism problem than other western countries, sure, I'll agree with that, but it's certainly not better. Lenny Henry and other British comedians - Stephen K Amos for example - have made note of the fact that they are surprised by the level of racism here. I saw Stephen K Amos at two Melbourne comedy festivals and he had different, horrific examples each time. If they are seeing racism here that they wouldn't see at home, and report that when they get home, that is a valid observation and it is reasonable for British people to take them at their word. It's a slightly different, but related, issue, but I remember seeing an interview with Kiruna Stamell, an actor from Australia who is short-statured, where she remarked that she feels more comfortable in the UK because she is not stopped on the street or stared at as much as she is at home. Not having spent a large amount of time in the UK I can't comment from personal experience, but the reports are not uncommon. Freejoytoo is perfectly reasonable to bring this up and we as Australians should take note that this is the perception of us that is out there in other parts of the world, and do what we can to model good behavior and speak out against racism when it does occur.

Good point, I do want to combat that idea - which is why I posted - honestly though I guess it's all coming down to anecdotes and individual experiences and my acquaintances and I have been astoundingly lucky and must live in a really good place. But I suppose it is worth bearing in mind how we are viewed and being even more cautious to combat that.

All countries have those bad perceptions though. How about "paki bashing"??? That's pretty disgusting. People from the UK would probably post on here and say they haven't experienced it and we shouldn't let that affect our view of the UK because it is unusual skinheads who are involved.

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(snipped)

I realise a lot more needs to be done but I guess you have to try and balance rushing in with a good idea against the potential for this to be seen as interfering which has happened in the past. Your post was interesting, do you have any suggestions on in which way things could be better? Your post made me realise that probably not enough is being done in schools. I'm hoping health care will improve slightly due to the large numbers of doctors being trained now (too many!) and the fact a lot of them are specifically required to work in areas of need, I guess that doesn't mean more facilities though.

I really don't see the Healthcare thing improving, at all. If anything its getting worse because budgets are getting cut (a friend from back where I grew up, just got told she can't get new glasses she desperately needs, because that service has been CUT!) and most young fresh Doctors do not want to be regular GP's in an office dealing in a family practice, with the sniffles all day long! Also if you only have two doctors surgeries in a town, with say a total of 6 Doctors. Who is going to have the time to oversee a student doctor and their work, as well as keep up with the massive influx of patients they already have.

Even when I needed to see a doctor back out west and was prepared to pay for it, ringing up daily is all that could be done, and hope to Christs you could get in! Because they would be booked MONTHS in advance and only left a few spaces open for 'emergency' appointments to call in for in the morning!

And again it comes back to Government bureaucracy, placing services and people in the area's which they think are 'in need' versus places that actually NEED. Which will still help, I know, but I feel like things on a state and national level, really don't realize what goes on in most local communities.

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Luckystone, I just want to leap in here and say that the BNP does NOT represent the views of a large part of the UK. This is really quite important.

The population of the UK is like anywhere else, people are dodgy on immigration, sometimes they're just generally confused by stuff, as can happen. But I don't know anyone who actually signs up to the BNP programme, especially not in Scotland. Look at it and you'll see why.

I'm a member of a small and rather strange political grouping ;) and we still do better than the fash do on numbers. You're in trouble if you suck worse than we do. :lol:

(It doesn't help if you read the Daily Mail as the BNP actually pay people to comment on there.)

I'd also like to add, with antifa hat on, I'm proud to be the comrade of someone who once punched Nick Griffin in the face.

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I really don't see the Healthcare thing improving, at all. If anything its getting worse because budgets are getting cut (a friend from back where I grew up, just got told she can't get new glasses she desperately needs, because that service has been CUT!) and most young fresh Doctors do not want to be regular GP's in an office dealing in a family practice, with the sniffles all day long! Also if you only have two doctors surgeries in a town, with say a total of 6 Doctors. Who is going to have the time to oversee a student doctor and their work, as well as keep up with the massive influx of patients they already have.

Even when I needed to see a doctor back out west and was prepared to pay for it, ringing up daily is all that could be done, and hope to Christs you could get in! Because they would be booked MONTHS in advance and only left a few spaces open for 'emergency' appointments to call in for in the morning!

And again it comes back to Government bureaucracy, placing services and people in the area's which they think are 'in need' versus places that actually NEED. Which will still help, I know, but I feel like things on a state and national level, really don't realize what goes on in most local communities.

I think the key is what you say about no time to train the new students/junior doctors as we have a shortage so they have produced lots of people at the junior level but they can't get training from people higher up as it's like a pyramid shape.

On the plus side, this means they won't get a choice of specialties any more so most will end up being GPs, and like I said with the area of need places specially allocated (bonded spots), it might mean they get distributed more evenly.

Regarding the definitions of what is in need, I don't know how they calculate that, so maybe that is another problem. I know they have the RA2-5 categories but I'm not sure what happens if doctors all choose to go to one area and how much control there is over that. I assume it's calculated in a purely statistical doctor-patient ratio way, but maybe it's more complicated than that.

I will be moving to an RA3 area soon (from city) so my entire perspective might shift, I'll let you know.

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Luckystone, I just want to leap in here and say that the BNP does NOT represent the views of a large part of the UK. This is really quite important.

The population of the UK is like anywhere else, people are dodgy on immigration, sometimes they're just generally confused by stuff, as can happen. But I don't know anyone who actually signs up to the BNP programme, especially not in Scotland. Look at it and you'll see why.

That was partly my point - it can be hard to tell from outside a country, especially if you only read dodgy media.

The Telegraph says 1 in 4 would consider voting BNP. I did take that with a grain of salt because I know they didn't get a seat at the last election. Still they are getting elected in places and their vote percentage was higher than our dodgy equivalent received.

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Um okay? The problem is to do with the complicated and risky nature of travel by boat. It's not to do with where the people are from. Border security is much easier in the controlled environment of the airport than marine search and rescue. The people in question are also paying an airline rather than a trafficker (well, usually, there are still dodgy practices), and probably didn't risk their lives. So it depends what you consider the "problem", I don't consider it to be the people arriving, which you do, I consider it to be the nature, safety and implications of that. Boat travel is increasing, so no longer do the vast majority of asylum seekers come by plane. Last year it hit 50-50 (previously 80-20).

I have gone to read back on past posts, and I see that I misunderstood you on this one. I took your comment about "stopping people arriving on boats" to mean stopping the people, not the boats. It hit a nerve, and I probably should have made sure I knew what you were getting at before posting, so I apologise.

I'm really trying to get my head around this one. They are not illegal. But we treat them like criminals. So they have to come here in illegal and dangerous ways. It's a bit circular. Are you saying that we are so horrible to people who arrive on visas then claim asylum at airports, that it's better to come on a boat? I'm confused both by what you're saying and how it's relevant to my point.

You're right, it is circular. It's not me making it circular, it's the government.

amnesty.org.au/refugees/comments/24506/

And yes, I missed your point.

Good point, I do want to combat that idea - which is why I posted - honestly though I guess it's all coming down to anecdotes and individual experiences and my acquaintances and I have been astoundingly lucky and must live in a really good place. But I suppose it is worth bearing in mind how we are viewed and being even more cautious to combat that.

All countries have those bad perceptions though. How about "paki bashing"??? That's pretty disgusting. People from the UK would probably post on here and say they haven't experienced it and we shouldn't let that affect our view of the UK because it is unusual skinheads who are involved.

I'm not debating that all countries have problems with racism. That doesn't make ours any less problematic. We have earned the reputation that we have. Everything freejoytoo said is accurate. If you do, as you say, live in a really good place (and judging by who our MP is, they don't come more left wing and socially progressive than my electorate, so I would be interested to know where this is - sorry, that sounds bitchy and sarcastic but I mean it genuinely) then it is understandable that you may not experience these things in your every day life, but the majority of us do. I mean, you just have to open the Herald Sun to be confronted by nauseating racism any day of the week, and WAY too many people read that paper.

I just think the way to combat the idea is not to deny, but to accept and own it, and take action.

Edited for formatting and breaking links I thought were already broke.

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I think the key is what you say about no time to train the new students/junior doctors as we have a shortage so they have produced lots of people at the junior level but they can't get training from people higher up as it's like a pyramid shape.

On the plus side, this means they won't get a choice of specialties any more so most will end up being GPs, and like I said with the area of need places specially allocated (bonded spots), it might mean they get distributed more evenly.

Regarding the definitions of what is in need, I don't know how they calculate that, so maybe that is another problem. I know they have the RA2-5 categories but I'm not sure what happens if doctors all choose to go to one area and how much control there is over that. I assume it's calculated in a purely statistical doctor-patient ratio way, but maybe it's more complicated than that.

There's a lot of mights and maybes in your analysis. It seems you really don't understand a lot of the issues at least at a personal level, and how things really are out in the real world, and in a remote area. You're good at sprouting facts and statistics, but not see the actual people and their needs.

I am wondering if you work in the health field? I wouldn't expect many people outside the field would know much about the Remoteness Area's. For what its worth where I grew up was rated Remote - RA4, but by looking at the Map and towns nearby are rated mostly RA3's when they should infact be RA4's because they were similar to my town. So there's definitely problems in the breakdown.

As for doctor initiatives, if someone has the funds to become a doctor in the first place, generally they are not coming from a place of low wealth, so can afford to be a bit picky with where they want to start, initiatives aren't necessarily deciding factors. Also, only 25% are being allocated to the scheme you mentioned.

Ultimately the Doctor still has discretion on whether they bulk bill someone or not, (meaning if they can afford to see a Doctor or not in many cases) and its increasing that they do not! Especially psychologists and psychiatrists (I can tell you that one, first hand too, even living here now at an RA2!)

I will be moving to an RA3 area soon (from city) so my entire perspective might shift, I'll let you know.

You'll let me know huh? Let me know when you're in a true Remote Area, and are living in poverty and cannot afford the Doctors there because they will not bulk bill. :roll:

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There's a lot of mights and maybes in your analysis. It seems you really don't understand a lot of the issues at least at a personal level, and how things really are out in the real world, and in a remote area. You're good at sprouting facts and statistics, but not see the actual people and their needs.

Yes, I know facts. You on the other hand seem to know a lot about your needs, but nothing about the actual facts or plausibility of anything. As far as I can tell, you just seem to think MOAR MONEY...free housing, free doctors without waiting lists...where exactly is this money going to come from? You've only really criticised existing social services for being inadequate without explaining what could improve things (other than everything free for everybody, which is the impression I'm getting). But don't let my facts and logic get in the way of your emotions.

I'm not even sure what we're talking about any more. Rural areas, poverty or Indigenous people? They aren't all the same. It's like a Venn diagram.

Of course, if we were in America, there would be NO health care at all. And probably very little else in the way of social support. No HECS. I don't think they have a youth allowance or rent assistance equivalent either. Which was my original point - Australia isn't doing too badly and is trying pretty hard.

I am wondering if you work in the health field? I wouldn't expect many people outside the field would know much about the Remoteness Area's. For what its worth where I grew up was rated Remote - RA4, but by looking at the Map and towns nearby are rated mostly RA3's when they should infact be RA4's because they were similar to my town. So there's definitely problems in the breakdown.

Bummer. You should write to the Department and tell them that their recent assessments don't match up with your childhood memories.

As for doctor initiatives, if someone has the funds to become a doctor in the first place, generally they are not coming from a place of low wealth, so can afford to be a bit picky with where they want to start, initiatives aren't necessarily deciding factors. Also, only 25% are being allocated to the scheme you mentioned.

Right, so everyone who goes to uni has significant funds, never HECS, youth allowance or casual jobs getting them through. That's a bit of a slap in the face to all the people who worked really hard to put themselves through med school, but okay.

Actually no, internships are balloted, so you don't get a choice where you start out, in fact you don't for a few years in. I think 25% in a scheme is pretty good. What percentage of doctors in the scheme would be good enough for you? 75% of doctors being told where to go? 100%? Cities, while often not technically areas of need, still need significant numbers of doctors to deal with, um, well all the millions of people who live there.

Ultimately the Doctor still has discretion on whether they bulk bill someone or not, (meaning if they can afford to see a Doctor or not in many cases) and its increasing that they do not! Especially psychologists and psychiatrists (I can tell you that one, first hand too, even living here now at an RA2!)

If doctors bulk billed everyone, then paid their insurance and their practice costs, they would generally struggle to earn a living, especially as bulk billing costs don't always go up with inflation. So now you're saying that not only should doctors be told where they have to work, but they have to do it on a below average income completely subsidised by the government? Doctors are personally responsible for improving health care by effectively donating from their business to everyone who can't afford their service (which is what bulk billing does)? This does not sound like a sustainable or functional model.

You'll let me know huh? Let me know when you're in a true Remote Area, and are living in poverty and cannot afford the Doctors there because they will not bulk bill. :roll:

Oh. I'm sorry. I'm not as deprived as you. I'll never understand anything.

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Whoa luckystone, I was thinking you were just misinformed and was trying to shed light from my experiences. Because your lack of empathy was so clear throughout all of your posts, I thought it must have been because your were relying on your facts and figures that were telling you that nothing was wrong. However I realize now you lack empathy because you have none, and your facts and figures are just there to make you feel ok about that. My Bad. I thought you wanted the inside scoop, and the reality. Not just a yes-man nodding in agreement to you.

You come across as snide and arrogant and obviously have a magor problem with Aboriginals and Lower class "poor" people and the government benefits they have, that you seem to think are handouts and free rides, that you clearly think shouldn't be in place.

You just confirmed everything the other posters said about Australians... Please note that Lucky Stone does not represent all of us.

I wasn't complaining so much as trying to show your royal highness self the issues happening to people in poverty and Remote areas, and how the breakdown your little facts and figures are indeed wrong. I was trying show you how hard it can be to just live day to day, since you have no clear idea and want to paint the country like roses and gold leaf. But the topic is now moot since its clear you lack compassion. How dare I assume you might be able to feel something for another human being who wasn't raised as privileged as you were and dare show that your facts are wrong.

Of course I realize we have it better here than America. And no I do not have all the answers, but neither do you especially with the rose coloured glasses and this holier-than-thou attitude, getting on your high horse and claiming you know it all, and have it figured at such a young age, when in reality you have so very little real life experience, its laughable. You really have no clue my little golden spooned snoflake.

Since you never replied to my assessment that you are in healthcare, and I am assuming you are. Please learn some compassion and empathy, those feelings and emotions that are oh so trifle and I dared to try and convey to you. For when you are dealing with clients/patients.

I hope the real world doesn't kick you in the gut, and you never have to deal with anyone who has indeed been screwed by the systems you seem to think are so perfect.

For what its worth, I worked my way out of the poverty stricken town I was in, made use of the FREE library service in my town (which in another thread you claimed was obsolete and useless to no-one) I used that handout free service to educate myself, keep myself out of trouble from durgs/alcohol/bad influences. Worked shitty jobs, went to tafe while working, moved and worked and educated myself more to move on up and out... I was very lucky, because many of my school peers are back there, with no real future for themselves or families. Thats real.

So, Seriously, FUCK YOU for thinking that this is about MOAR MONAY and free handouts. You disgust me and are everything that Australia needs to STOP.

I'm done with you and this thread. You're on my block list, baby.

Hope the real world knocks that bigoted behaviour right out of you, as you enter the workforce. ESAD/DIAF.

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Whoa luckystone, I was thinking you were just misinformed and was trying to shed light from my experiences. Because your lack of empathy was so clear throughout all of your posts, I thought it must have been because your were relying on your facts and figures that were telling you that nothing was wrong. However I realize now you lack empathy because you have none, and your facts and figures are just there to make you feel ok about that. My Bad. I thought you wanted the inside scoop, and the reality. Not just a yes-man nodding in agreement to you.

You come across as snide and arrogant and obviously have a magor problem with Aboriginals and Lower class "poor" people and the government benefits they have, that you seem to think are handouts and free rides, that you clearly think shouldn't be in place.

You just confirmed everything the other posters said about Australians... Please note that Lucky Stone does not represent all of us.

I wasn't complaining so much as trying to show your royal highness self the issues happening to people in poverty and Remote areas, and how the breakdown your little facts and figures are indeed wrong. I was trying show you how hard it can be to just live day to day, since you have no clear idea and want to paint the country like roses and gold leaf. But the topic is now moot since its clear you lack compassion. How dare I assume you might be able to feel something for another human being who wasn't raised as privileged as you were and dare show that your facts are wrong.

Of course I realize we have it better here than America. And no I do not have all the answers, but neither do you especially with the rose coloured glasses and this holier-than-thou attitude, getting on your high horse and claiming you know it all, and have it figured at such a young age, when in reality you have so very little real life experience, its laughable. You really have no clue my little golden spooned snoflake.

Since you never replied to my assessment that you are in healthcare, and I am assuming you are. Please learn some compassion and empathy, those feelings and emotions that are oh so trifle and I dared to try and convey to you. For when you are dealing with clients/patients.

I hope the real world doesn't kick you in the gut, and you never have to deal with anyone who has indeed been screwed by the systems you seem to think are so perfect.

For what its worth, I worked my way out of the poverty stricken town I was in, made use of the FREE library service in my town (which in another thread you claimed was obsolete and useless to no-one) I used that handout free service to educate myself, keep myself out of trouble from durgs/alcohol/bad influences. Worked shitty jobs, went to tafe while working, moved and worked and educated myself more to move on up and out... I was very lucky, because many of my school peers are back there, with no real future for themselves or families. Thats real.

So, Seriously, FUCK YOU for thinking that this is about MOAR MONAY and free handouts. You disgust me and are everything that Australia needs to STOP.

I'm done with you and this thread. You're on my block list, baby.

Hope the real world knocks that bigoted behaviour right out of you, as you enter the workforce. ESAD/DIAF.

+1 :)

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ESAD/DIAF? Okay. I get it. If you treat other people like that just because they know more facts than you and you disagree...well, let's just say I understand why your psychiatrist won't bulk bill you.

Anyone can see I've both responded to your points and tried to take your stories on board. I have repeatedly extolled the benefits of, well, benefits, and how they are of exceptional value to this country, but don't make everything perfect. And that there's no easy fix, but I would like to hear of plausible suggestions. You, unfortunately, are incapable of being rational, and instead repeatedly talk about how hard your life is, and how this means I must be privileged, racist and not in the workforce. Or something.

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I know it's not good enough. In no way was I saying that "things are offered, so it's someone's fault if they aren't magically better", I was worried it would come across like that and I didn't mean it to. But you can't deny personal responsibility completely. I mentioned there are confounding factors like remote communities which can make things like health and education incredibly difficult for everyone there. The points I was making was 1) these problems are not due to racism, it is more complex than that 2) there are structures in place to try and make a difference and there are some improvements 3) there are unique factors as mentioned and 4) the not my problem thing mentioned is probably linked with the high immigration so a lot of people in Australia genuinely aren't sure what to do on a personal level and combined that looks like a more negative attitude than it actually is.

And no, I don't know all about it, but I certainly know more than some British person who thinks most are all callous and racist and just shout rude things at minorities all day. I found that incredibly offensive and I didn't just want to let it go. It sounds like she didn't even KNOW that there are massive government initiatives going towards assistance for these things, even though it's a slow process, which is why I was telling her. I wasn't saying "what about me?". Admittedly, I was defensive because I don't think my country should have a reputation like that when every country has poverty and racism. But I was just trying to give her some more info so at least she knows.

I realise a lot more needs to be done but I guess you have to try and balance rushing in with a good idea against the potential for this to be seen as interfering which has happened in the past. Your post was interesting, do you have any suggestions on in which way things could be better? Your post made me realise that probably not enough is being done in schools. I'm hoping health care will improve slightly due to the large numbers of doctors being trained now (too many!) and the fact a lot of them are specifically required to work in areas of need, I guess that doesn't mean more facilities though.

:roll: Where did I ever say that? And furthermore where did I ever post that Australians are all white convicts? I'm fully aware that Australia is a multicultural country. My point is that there is still a HUGE amount of racism towards indigenous Australians, and I also made sure that I added that I'm aware that not all Australians hold this view. Besides, my post wasn't about government initiatives. My post was about the casual racism towards ethnic minorities which IS a big problem in Australia and is largely accepted by a lot of people. I'm not trying to say that Britian is some tolerant utopia, we have a lot of issues with racism as well, but I think racism on a casual level is more widely accepted in certain parts of Australia. And the majority of people do not sympathise with the BNP. As for the TV show, my point was that the fact that they were discussing that so many people hold this view and that it's a big issue there shows it's a problem (and yes, I know it's one source but I've seen evidence of this in other parts of the media).

Apologies for late reply, have been away all weekend. And I reitearte: I do not think all Australians are racists who hurl abuse at minorites and likewise I don't think the government aren't funding programs to help such groups. But I think it's undeniable that in several parts of Australia casual racism is a huge issue and not taken seriously enough.

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