Answers for QF/ATI upbringing

[razingruth]

Wow! So, there have been several people emailing me through my blog and asking questions. Most all of them have been people I recognize from here, so I thought I'd answer the questions here and open up these questions to the other FJ members who had a similar upbringing.

1. Ruth, now that you're through blogging, do you intend to go public with your identity?

Honestly, I think it's going to happen at some point. It's been almost four years since I started blogging anonymously and while there's comfort in that anonymity, I can see why it might be important to put a name to the experiences, if for no other reason than to validate them. However, and this is a big "however", I'm not there, yet. I still feel a great need to make sure certain people in my life have an out if they need it and/or won't be unnecessarily affected by my outing my father. There are people who still depend on him for a livelihood that, for now, ATI/Gothard is providing. My family has a lot riding on his employability and I wouldn't want my sisters to suffer more than they already do.

I also see how I've put enough details out there to make my family identifiable for those "in the circle". There's been some blowback; but, as long as I leave everyone an out, it hasn't been too severe.

I know other ex-ATI kids feel similarly because I've read the emails and had private conversations that concur with my experience.

Did Gothard ever do anything sexual towards you?

No.

Another big "however", - I believe he does have a uniquely creepy manner. I have also heard the rumors and talk that has surrounded the man for years. People know that there's something "off" in the same way that I would expect that people knew there was something "off" with other examples of improper behavior. You just know in your gut. I do think Gothard is a crafty, manipulative guy who would watch his back and have an excuse for anyone who came at him with an accusation. Gothard was a huge figure in my life and I have a feeling that, had anything occurred with me, I would've been told it was my misunderstanding. He's viewed as a role model and a sort of religious idol. Those people are hard to stand up against in this sort of community.

What was your impression of the world right after you left?

It was terrifying and liberating all at the same time. The pace was very hard to acclimate to. Toward my teen years, in our family, time revolved around my father and my mother. We did what the said, when they said it, and we were always late. Mostly, we were late because my father would come up with the lamest reasons to stall everything and we didn't dare tell him he was making us late. At the last minute, he would demand food or say he needed to pray or he would gather us to pray. We learned to stop watching the clock. When I left, it was hard to keep to a schedule.

I was overwhelmed by the television. After not having the freedom to watch as a kid, I had a hard time governing myself. In fact, it was the same for many things. I had every aspect of my life controlled by my parents to the effect that I really had little self-control over stupid things. I gained a lot of weight right off the bat because I hoarded food and over-indulged. I was a complete fashion victim because I was waiting for someone to tell me what to wear. I also had a strange fear of other ethnicities.

When is Rachel getting married?

They won't tell me the wedding date, strangely. I think they imagine I'll crash it. :roll: I would guess it will be after his divorce finalizes (which should be very soon).

[Visionoyahweh]

Ruth, thanks for continuing to post here. You're a much stronger person than I could ever be.

[Deleted06]

Hey Ruth!

I have a question...when Rachel gets married, will there be that "transfer of authority" like when Josh & Anna and Priscilla & David got married? Is that a typical ATI/Gothard thing or was it unique to the Keller family?

[CallmeChaCha]

Thanks for answering questions. I have another one - regarding food: were there a lot of foods that were strange to you when you left? Food you never ate at home? While I didn't grow up fundie, I grew up very ignorant and there were A LOT of foods we never ate at home, that I "discovered" when I moved out. Peas, for example. Never had peas at home until I was 18. I knew what they were of course, but they were never consumed at my home.

[yewnique]

Thanks for answering questions. I have another one - regarding food: were there a lot of foods that were strange to you when you left? Food you never ate at home? While I didn't grow up fundie, I grew up very ignorant and there were A LOT of foods we never ate at home, that I "discovered" when I moved out. Peas, for example. Never had peas at home until I was 18. I knew what they were of course, but they were never consumed at my home.

What's wrong with peas? They seem so 'innocent' to me.

[CallmeChaCha]

What's wrong with peas? They seem so 'innocent' to me.

Sorry. I didn't mean I was sheltered, it really was ignorance, or lack of knowledge. Not knowing what was out there. I guess kinda like the Duggars', Bates', Maxwell's offspring don't know about life - that's how my parents were (because, sadly, that's how their parents were).

[yewnique]

Sorry. I didn't mean I was sheltered, it really was ignorance, or lack of knowledge. Not knowing what was out there. I guess kinda like the Duggars', Bates', Maxwell's offspring don't know about life - that's how my parents were (because, sadly, that's how their parents were).

Peas seem so ubiquitous to me. Did your parents not like peas or something - is that why peas were never served at home?

I know someone who hates peas and therefore she never cooks them at home. Her daughters went to visit Grandma once and Grandma served peas. One daughter saw the peas and asked, "What's this?" Grandma nearly died from shock. :lol:

[Deleted01]

Peas seem so ubiquitous to me. Did your parents not like peas or something - is that why peas were never served at home?

I know someone who hates peas and therefore she never cooks them at home. Her daughters went to visit Grandma once and Grandma served peas. One daughter saw the peas and asked, "What's this?" Grandma nearly died from shock. :lol:

My dad was the only person in the house that liked them until my younger sister came along, so peas were rare in my house. I don't like them so we very rarely have them here. I'll eat them in veggie soup or stew, but as a side all alone...no thank you.

[razingruth]

Hey Ruth!

I have a question...when Rachel gets married, will there be that "transfer of authority" like when Josh & Anna and Priscilla & David got married? Is that a typical ATI/Gothard thing or was it unique to the Keller family?

I can't speak to their relationship in specific because I just don't know enough about them. My guess would be that, yes, there would be a similar transfer of authority. It's almost it's own tradition in this generation of ATI young people. It's like a unity candle in another faith. It's not unique to the Kellers since it's a widely accepted ideal within ATI/QF/Patriarchal families. There's even a wisdom book lesson on it.

Thanks for answering questions. I have another one - regarding food: were there a lot of foods that were strange to you when you left? Food you never ate at home? While I didn't grow up fundie, I grew up very ignorant and there were A LOT of foods we never ate at home, that I "discovered" when I moved out.

Asian foods were something we didn't eat at home. Same goes for real Mexican food. My mom had a recipe that was called Tamale Pie, but after I left I realized that it didn't resemble any Tamale I've had since. Any sort of spicy food was not allowed in my house because it my "stir up" unrighteous desires or emotions. I'm dead serious- my father believed crap like that.

[xReems]

I have always wondered this-I know Gothard teaches that "Christianity is the right and true religion" but what did he say regarding other religions? Were children taught, through Wisdom booklets or any other homeschooling books, that Hinduism, Judaism, Islam, etc were crap religions and should not be considered a "religion"? I know some homeschooling parents (not through ATI) who would "teach" their children about other religions but compare to Christianity and how those religions were not the "right ones" and how those who follow different beliefs live a sinful life.

[mrs]

Ruth,

In the ATI/IBLP social circles, are the older Duggar daughters viewed as desirable for a young man to court? At what age, if any, would it become difficult to find a suitor?

Thanks for posting.

[razingruth]

I have always wondered this-I know Gothard teaches that "Christianity is the right and true religion" but what did he say regarding other religions? Were children taught, through Wisdom booklets or any other homeschooling books, that Hinduism, Judaism, Islam, etc were crap religions and should not be considered a "religion"? I know some homeschooling parents (not through ATI) who would "teach" their children about other religions but compare to Christianity and how those religions were not the "right ones" and how those who follow different beliefs live a sinful life.

Early WB's didn't have comparitive religion lessons. They may now, but I would doubt it. I had very racist views of other religions and very naive views on how many people in those religions were active. Now that I'm so far out, it's hard to remember the exact wording that was used regarding other religions, but I seem to recall being taught the following:

1. Hinduism was a dying religion. It was false and polytheistic. By virtue of the polytheism, it couldn't be Biblically true. Forget that Hindus don't use the Holy Bible- my childhood teachings assumed that the Holy Bible was the only true religious text.

2. Catholicism was corrupt. Oh, yes! That's part of what made the Duggar support of Santorum deliciously ironic. I *know* they, at least at one point, taught that Catholics were misguided and confused people that refused to see truth. I was truly misinformed in my house. I was told that Catholicism was polytheistic because of the worship of Saints and Mary. The intercession of the priests was a "brick wall" between the sinner and God. And, the Pope was seen as the MOST CORRUPT person on earth.

3. Islam was the Big Bad Wolf of true Christians. I was taught that Islam was a small, shrinking faith, filled with polygamists.

4. Judaism was, in my early childhood, dealt with as an antiquated faith that was rendered unnecessary by Christ's birth, death, and ressurection. That all changed in the early 90's, when we started including prayers for Israel and identifying with the Jews. To this day, I have no idea why the switch.

[formergothardite]

Early WB's didn't have comparitive religion lessons. They may now, but I would doubt it. I had very racist views of other religions and very naive views on how many people in those religions were active. Now that I'm so far out, it's hard to remember the exact wording that was used regarding other religions, but I seem to recall being taught the following:

1. Hinduism was a dying religion. It was false and polytheistic. By virtue of the polytheism, it couldn't be Biblically true. Forget that Hindus don't use the Holy Bible- my childhood teachings assumed that the Holy Bible was the only true religious text.

2. Catholicism was corrupt. Oh, yes! That's part of what made the Duggar support of Santorum deliciously ironic. I *know* they, at least at one point, taught that Catholics were misguided and confused people that refused to see truth. I was truly misinformed in my house. I was told that Catholicism was polytheistic because of the worship of Saints and Mary. The intercession of the priests was a "brick wall" between the sinner and God. And, the Pope was seen as the MOST CORRUPT person on earth.

3. Islam was the Big Bad Wolf of true Christians. I was taught that Islam was a small, shrinking faith, filled with polygamists.

4. Judaism was, in my early childhood, dealt with as an antiquated faith that was rendered unnecessary by Christ's birth, death, and ressurection. That all changed in the early 90's, when we started including prayers for Israel and identifying with the Jews. To this day, I have no idea why the switch.

Gothard had a rhema. :lol:

[razingruth]

Ruth,

In the ATI/IBLP social circles, are the older Duggar daughters viewed as desirable for a young man to court? At what age, if any, would it become difficult to find a suitor?

Thanks for posting.

It's been a long time since I've had first hand knowledge of the ATI circle. I've heard, second hand, that the Duggar daughters are seen as a problem. They're viewed as too wordly and too high maintenance. Usually, you're considerd an old maid in ATI after 25. But, some families have rules about when a daughter can accept proposals and it seems like, all through ATI, the marriages are taking place at older ages.

It depends on the family situations.

[treemom]

Ruth,

I just wanted to tell you good luck. I think it is good you are in a place where your identity is much bigger than just "the girl who left". No matter what doubts I ever had, your story was compelling and I am glad you told it. I hope you continue to find your niche in life and wish nothing but the best for you.

[silvia]

Hi Ruth,

Thanks for sticking around to answer questions! It's really helpful for those of us who are on the outside looking in at this lifestyle (with both fascination and horror). My question is: During and after the period when you were leaving your family, how much did you struggle with feeling like what you were doing was "sinful"? In other words, I guess, how far had the de-programming process already progressed for you before you left, and how far did you still have left to go? I know the fact that you were nearly forced into marriage was the precipitating event, but to what extent did you still think the ATI lifestyle had value by the time you chose to leave, and to what extent had you decided it was a crock? (I ask these things not as someone who was raised in a cult--I wasn't--but as someone who still can't keep myself from questioning the wisdom of diverging from my parents in certain areas, due to the psychological power they held over me when I was a child.)

[ElphabaGalinda]

Hi Ruth! I'm glad you're posting here. Hope to see your views on some of the other topics if you have the time. I'm wondering if you know of other people in other families who've escaped as you did? That's just always what I hope for all who are raised in QF/ATI/other similar movements, so I was wondering how common it is. I also was wondering along the lines of silvia's questions, what you were taught about different kinds of people ( gay people, people who have pre marital sex, atheists, people on birth control), and how much of it you believed, vs. how much of it you had to live in the real world to know it wasn't true? I know it was hard for me to let go a lot of the things I was taught and I didn't grow up nearly as restrictively. I think you're doing great, and I wish you all the best in the future!

[Turning-A-New-Leaf]

Ruth,

Thank you for taking the time to look into all these inquiries, amazing job responding.

As I read the question about if there were teachings of comparative religions and your response to the question, a thought popped into my mind. I started wondering about the QF/ATI/Patriarchy religious viewpoints. If these groups (or what you were taught at the time) viewed the denominations a certain way (listed above and others not listed), then what exactly were the QF/ATI/Patriarchy groups beliefs or religious teachings? What was it all based upon?

It seems as though anytime there may have been a discrepency with another denominational teaching or information, the idea was immediately shut-down or dismissed and followed with a short, succinct repsonse as to why a person shouldn't look that direction, mostly likely to scare people and stop anyone from exploring outside religions.

Hopefully you will be able to provide better insight into this, other ex-QF/ATI/Patriarchy members are welcome to respond as well.

[Chrystal-J]

Hi Ruth!

I was just wondering if extended (non-ATI) family members are shunned in QF circles. Also if you've had any support from members of your extended family who are not QF/ATI/Patriarchy?

Hoping the best for you!

[razingruth]

Hi Ruth!

I was just wondering if extended (non-ATI) family members are shunned in QF circles. Also if you've had any support from members of your extended family who are not QF/ATI/Patriarchy?

Hoping the best for you!

I don't have a large extended family. My grandparents were involved with us older children in a really, really limited fashion but they passed away when I was pretty young. My mom was an only child and the apple of her parent's eye- extremely bright, educated very well and didn't want for anything. My dad made sure that anything she inherited (and I think it was sizable) was spent early on in the ministry. My dad's family is really odd. To this day, I don't know much, if anything, about them. I've tried googling and researching but there isn't much to go on. My dad would say that he had siblings and then introduce us to "uncles" that I figured out weren't even family. My suspiscion is that his methodist family tuned him out when he started down the path of IBLP.

So, no...I didn't have any extended family to turn to.

I do have an older brother that left; but, he's forgiven because he's a guy. No, really. He's very supportive of our entire family- he always has been.

I'm the eldest daughter- kid #4.

I know other ATI families that keep up relationships with extended family not in ATI. There's no formal shunning process or anything like that. It does get hard for some families to find common ground and I think ATI doesn't discourage you from "letting the chaff separate from the wheat". :roll: Oddly, it seems like the current generation of parents are really big on casting away kids that don't fall in line- while their own parents obviously put up with their new faiths/philosophies. Hypocritical? Yes.

[razingruth]

Hi Ruth! I'm glad you're posting here. Hope to see your views on some of the other topics if you have the time. I'm wondering if you know of other people in other families who've escaped as you did?!

I know of a few now that I'm out. When I was in ATI, I'd never heard of anyone leaving. I think there are way more than we think and I think there are enough GOOD families that sort of accept that their child didn't want that life. I think cases like mine- where a chlid is cut off completely- are rarer than those who just switch all their focus and energy to the ones who tow the line.

My dad is a pompous, arrogant man who didn't really love any of us. I don't think all ATI dads are that way.

[BlondeAgent007]

The food thing (about no spices and such) sounds so much like a way to isolate from other cultures. Most cultures use tons of spices in cooking. I love ethnic food because of it! Food is used as an icebreaker much like weather, and it seems like if everybody eats the same types of food, they have an easy topic to talk about.

Do you think that Josh and Anna have weight issues for the same reasons you did? They have both gained weight since being married. In my mind it has to do with having the liberty of getting second helpings (I always had that option, in a family of five, in a family of 21 I am sure it isn't an option) and having developed poor cooking skills. What is your take on this?

[redcurls]

Hey Ruth, I don't have any questions for you (yet!) but I also wanted to thank you for basically everything you have done. You turned a terrible situation into something positive and encouraging. Your escape showed others that it could be done. Your blog gave hope to many people, for a myriad of reasons. Personally, it has acted as a great tool for informing others about the existence and realities of fundamentalism. Even the fact that you have stopped blogging is encouraging, because you are showing others who came from the same type of background as you that life goes on, things change, and people grow and find freedom.

[Naga Viper]

Ruth, glad to have you posting again, especially since I was still a lurker back when you were last active on the board. Maybe you've addressed this elsewhere (and if so, just tell me where), but if not: I've seen speculation on what'll happen when Gothard passes, but what's your take on it? Will the movement gradually disintegrate or fragment, or are there enough prospective torchbearers to keep it reasonably viable?

[Chrystal-J]

I don't have a large extended family. My grandparents were involved with us older children in a really, really limited fashion but they passed away when I was pretty young. My mom was an only child and the apple of her parent's eye- extremely bright, educated very well and didn't want for anything. My dad made sure that anything she inherited (and I think it was sizable) was spent early on in the ministry. My dad's family is really odd. To this day, I don't know much, if anything, about them. I've tried googling and researching but there isn't much to go on. My dad would say that he had siblings and then introduce us to "uncles" that I figured out weren't even family. My suspiscion is that his methodist family tuned him out when he started down the path of IBLP.

So, no...I didn't have any extended family to turn to.

I do have an older brother that left; but, he's forgiven because he's a guy. No, really. He's very supportive of our entire family- he always has been.

I'm the eldest daughter- kid #4.

I know other ATI families that keep up relationships with extended family not in ATI. There's no formal shunning process or anything like that. It does get hard for some families to find common ground and I think ATI doesn't discourage you from "letting the chaff separate from the wheat". :roll: Oddly, it seems like the current generation of parents are really big on casting away kids that don't fall in line- while their own parents obviously put up with their new faiths/philosophies. Hypocritical? Yes.

The "casting off of children" reminds me if the "lost Mormon boys". Any sign of dissent and they're gone. I think at some point cult-like groups begin to become more and more extreme because it's about the leaders and member's personality problems rather than their religious beliefs. I was involved with the Jehovah Witness' for years (never joined, but had friends who did). They are very rigid in their practices and people are afraid to say one word against the Organization. If the leaders of the Organization decide to turn on a member, they're shunned and their own mother's won't even talk to them. So, I completely understand you not wanting to reveal your name or any personal information. I had no family members in the JWs, and I was afraid to say anything negative about them because there was no telling how they would react. I finally quit having anything to do with them via text. I didn't have the courage to do it face to face. I'm not close to my family either and that makes it all the harder face these kinds of issues (with no family support). You're one brave lady and I hope only the best for you.