Bateses start a church

[IReallyAmHopewell]

Probably because they literally out grew the little church they attended!!

It isn't that easy to qualify for a tax-write off for a church. Now, whether the motel is charging much is another question. Likely this is a home church and their home may not be well situated for holding it there. I'm sure they WILL lure a few carefully vetted families into ATI but most will be already of that mindset to protect innocent children of 23 from being exposed to radical ideas like moving out without first getting married!

I cannot imagine they will use this "church" as an income. It can take YEARS for a Church plant (new church) to even pay the light bill. I'm sure they will still be cutting down trees and washing windows and doing whatever to try to pay their bills.

[Witsec7]

My bad - I read that on ONTD (not here)

I'm gonna wait for Bayley to have the final word on this :lol:

[doggie]

[quote="GeoBQn"

I dunno I feel that at least they are not "home churching" a concept I find really stupid, particularly how the Duggars are doing it.

But in reality it is home church. No trained people only rules to follow are the ones they make up. These churches are for people who have gone off the deep end and no church supports their actions. So they don't have a church to rein them in and they are free to do full on crazy. But I am sure god laid it on their hearts.

[xReems]

Off topic slightly, but... http://www.thebatesfamily.com/css/images/main-img.jpg Is that Michaela's bare shoulder I see or am I just going crazy from lack of sleep?

I think it's that child's hair that's making it look like Michaela is showing her shoulder. She dresses far more conservatively than her younger sister's.

As for the church, it's just a tax write off. This doesn't surprise me one bit. Just like the Duggars, the Bateseseses are following whatever their beloved sweet friends are doing. They said they wouldn't do a show but then "God" told them otherwise. They said they wouldn't start a church but then God showed them the light. Who knows what other things they'll end up doing.

[razingruth]

I don't know, with first hand knowledge, what the Bates or Duggars are doing. I can share that it is a really common "hush-hush" financial freedom tip amongst ATI folk that you can register your minstries as a tax exempt LLC or charity. Then, what you do to avoid high income tax, is accept payment fo services under the charity. So, as an example, if the Bates claim that their television show is their ministry or outreach, they may accept their fees from the production company as "donations" to the ministry in lieu of salary. That way, it's taxed at a lower rate, if it's taxed at all. It is also common for these families to register a portion of their home as a worship center so that their property taxes are reduced. My father did. I forget what the particulars are/were but it's easy and common. You had to keep one room for the purposes of the ministry and be careful not to show it as a common living space. The other, less often used, trick was to register the home school as a non-profit and accept donations for materials from companies. A paper company sponsored my parents "home school and character ministry" when I was a kid and I recall boxes upon boxes of paper stacked in our garage. We would then give it to other homeschoolers as "donations", which gave the non-profit legitimacy. Another trick was to upgrade something and then donate your old things to anothe rfamily ministry so that you could write off the donation and lower your tax obligations.

Don't think for a moment that these patriarchs are innocent, Amish like men with an eye to God and nothing else. They're almost always shrewed business men working the law to their advantage.

[mrs]

I don't know, with first hand knowledge, what the Bates or Duggars are doing. I can share that it is a really common "hush-hush" financial freedom tip amongst ATI folk that you can register your minstries as a tax exempt LLC or charity. Then, what you do to avoid high income tax, is accept payment fo services under the charity. So, as an example, if the Bates claim that their television show is their ministry or outreach, they may accept their fees from the production company as "donations" to the ministry in lieu of salary. That way, it's taxed at a lower rate, if it's taxed at all. It is also common for these families to register a portion of their home as a worship center so that their property taxes are reduced. My father did. I forget what the particulars are/were but it's easy and common. You had to keep one room for the purposes of the ministry and be careful not to show it as a common living space. The other, less often used, trick was to register the home school as a non-profit and accept donations for materials from companies. A paper company sponsored my parents "home school and character ministry" when I was a kid and I recall boxes upon boxes of paper stacked in our garage. We would then give it to other homeschoolers as "donations", which gave the non-profit legitimacy. Another trick was to upgrade something and then donate your old things to anothe rfamily ministry so that you could write off the donation and lower your tax obligations.

Don't think for a moment that these patriarchs are innocent, Amish like men with an eye to God and nothing else. They're almost always shrewed business men working the law to their advantage.

Well this may provide some insight into how much the Bates/Duggars are paid by TLC,if their salary was "donated" to their "church." If they receive more then $25k in donations, I think they would have to file a form 990 with the IRS. This form is public information(site explaining 990 ->npccny.org/Form_990/990.htm) including the source of income.

Anyone know the name of the Duggar and/or Bates church names?

[IReallyAmHopewell]

I'm pretty sure the IRS would be looking over any substantial donation from a major tv network to a so-called ministry. For small change stuff it might pass, but not on the scale the Duggars are being paid.

Just like home offices, the IRS has very stringent rules on what can be called a church. To set up a chairty is another matter, but they have to file taxes and register with the Secretary of State or other body in their home state.

I do not believe the Duggars have any tax-exempt status right now. Could they form a charitable organization in the future--yes, I could see that possibly to help the orphans in El Salvedor or something. A politician is not going to have a half-assed charity to come back and bite him in the future. Jim-Bob thinks in terms of politics.

[Dollypeeps]

You just fill out papers is all you need to do.

Your kidding right no your not are you?

Ruddy Nora thats all we need all for the ratings I take it cant really comment as we dont have this series here in the UK and it isnt on Youtube as of yet.

[mrs]

IAmReallyHopewell, you are right. That would be really easy for the IRS to catch. :)

[Deleted03]

But in reality it is home church. No trained people only rules to follow are the ones they make up. These churches are for people who have gone off the deep end and no church supports their actions. So they don't have a church to rein them in and they are free to do full on crazy. But I am sure god laid it on their hearts.

I see your point, but I thought home churches did not have a pastor, but rather had a turn over of men talking during services?

[doggie]

but when you have made so many children you should be king fool. I mean that should qualify you for the top place.

[gustava]

I live in rural Appalachia, an area in which the Bates family would be comfortable. As several of you have noted, formal seminary is not a requisite to pastor a church. Across the road from me is the Powerhouse Full Gospel Church, with maybe a congregation of ten, based on the number of cars in the parking lot on the Sundays when someone shows up.

In my area, church property is not taxed, even if the name of the church changes every year or so. However, the tax advantage goes to the owner of the property, not to the current pastor.

Generally, even in rural areas such as mine, to gain the tax advantage, the property must be deeded as a church, with a board of trustees.

If the Bates don't own the property, they do not get the tax advantage which adheres to ownership. I'm not knowledgeable about renting space for a church, but I would think that the tax advantage would accrue to the property owner, not Gil.

I'm guessing it's an ego trip for Gil.

[Arete]

It is definitely an ego trip for Gil.

There are some aspects of the Protestant doctrine of "the priesthood of the believer" that I really admire, and I am not snarking. However, the ability of anyone to be a pastor with no formal seminary education is not one of them.

[HereticHick]

From the Nexis database, here is the earliest article I could find on the Bates family. It's from before they moved to Lake City--and apparently before they started the Bates Tree Service business:

News Sentinel (Knoxville, Tennessee)

June 24, 2001 Sunday

Togetherness is no stranger to Corryton family of 11

BYLINE: Harold Julian

Gil and Kelly Bates have 11 children and are praying for more.

"We hope to have as many as the Lord will give us," said Kelly, who gave birth to nine at home (with a midwife) and two in a hospital...

The children are schooled at home by the parents, both Carson-Newman College gradu-ates. Gil Bates and Kelly Callaham married in 1987 while they were in college, where he served as a youth minister. She was born in Spartanburg, S.C., and he in the small town of Honea Path, S.C.

They have lived in Knox County 13 years, including on Rollen Lane in South Knox and on Barbara Drive in Fountain City. For about nine months, they have lived on Stair Road, Corryton. The house has two-and-a-half baths and five bedrooms, including several bunk beds. It's a rental house, but the couple has a rent-purchase agreement.

They have a 15-passenger van, but "we might need a bus next," Kelly laughed.

As the children began to show an interest in music, some were given piano lessons by Glenda Burnett. All are singers, except for the youngest, and she is listening and paying attention.

The children are healthy and, so far, not one tooth cavity. "Eating out" is a treat. At a Cracker Barrel, for example, "sometimes for as little as $35 for the family."

Breakfast at home might include a pound and a half of bacon, 18 eggs and one-and-a-half loaves of bread. Potato soup for the family requires a 10-pound bag of spuds.

Gil Bates washes windows, cleans floors, mows lawns and does other odd jobs. They are members of Halls Baptist Church but are often invited to sing at other churches and such places as retirement homes. The father does religious "chalk talks" and the children sing. Except for the baby, the children enter the room, each with a hand on the shoulder of the child in front, like a drill team.

The family's income is limited. Although qualified for food stamps and other government assistance, they refuse such help. "The Lord will provide," said Gil.

The Bateses' home has electricity and a telephone but no TV.

What? No cartoons? They do have a video player and monitor. Films which are considered beneficial to children and which promote character development are shown, said the parents...

There is no spring break and little summer vacation for the homeschooled children. The curriculum of the Family Christian Academy is followed and achievement tests are given. No decision has been made about high school.

The Bateses have heard some criticism concerning overpopulation and even about depriving their children of TV, but people who have met this unusual family might think "they're doing the right thing." I have never met such good-looking, bright, friendly, well-behaved children. Did I say happy?

They seem to be.

[Spider Burps]

From the Nexis database, here is the earliest article I could find on the Bates family. It's from before they moved to Lake City--and apparently before they started the Bates Tree Service business:

News Sentinel (Knoxville, Tennessee)

June 24, 2001 Sunday

Togetherness is no stranger to Corryton family of 11

BYLINE: Harold Julian

Gil and Kelly Bates have 11 children and are praying for more.

"We hope to have as many as the Lord will give us," said Kelly, who gave birth to nine at home (with a midwife) and two in a hospital...

The children are schooled at home by the parents, both Carson-Newman College gradu-ates. Gil Bates and Kelly Callaham married in 1987 while they were in college, where he served as a youth minister. She was born in Spartanburg, S.C., and he in the small town of Honea Path, S.C.

They have lived in Knox County 13 years, including on Rollen Lane in South Knox and on Barbara Drive in Fountain City. For about nine months, they have lived on Stair Road, Corryton. The house has two-and-a-half baths and five bedrooms, including several bunk beds. It's a rental house, but the couple has a rent-purchase agreement.

They have a 15-passenger van, but "we might need a bus next," Kelly laughed.

As the children began to show an interest in music, some were given piano lessons by Glenda Burnett. All are singers, except for the youngest, and she is listening and paying attention.

The children are healthy and, so far, not one tooth cavity. "Eating out" is a treat. At a Cracker Barrel, for example, "sometimes for as little as $35 for the family."

Breakfast at home might include a pound and a half of bacon, 18 eggs and one-and-a-half loaves of bread. Potato soup for the family requires a 10-pound bag of spuds.

Gil Bates washes windows, cleans floors, mows lawns and does other odd jobs. They are members of Halls Baptist Church but are often invited to sing at other churches and such places as retirement homes. The father does religious "chalk talks" and the children sing. Except for the baby, the children enter the room, each with a hand on the shoulder of the child in front, like a drill team.

The family's income is limited. Although qualified for food stamps and other government assistance, they refuse such help. "The Lord will provide," said Gil.

The Bateses' home has electricity and a telephone but no TV.

What? No cartoons? They do have a video player and monitor. Films which are considered beneficial to children and which promote character development are shown, said the parents...

There is no spring break and little summer vacation for the homeschooled children. The curriculum of the Family Christian Academy is followed and achievement tests are given. No decision has been made about high school.

The Bateses have heard some criticism concerning overpopulation and even about depriving their children of TV, but people who have met this unusual family might think "they're doing the right thing." I have never met such good-looking, bright, friendly, well-behaved children. Did I say happy?

They seem to be.

So do you have any, uh, original thoughts or do you just spend your day searching Lexis Nexis for fundies? I'm pretty sure most of us care about your opinions, not your ability to copy and paste.

[Bethella]

So do you have any, uh, original thoughts or do you just spend your day searching Lexis Nexis for fundies? I'm pretty sure most of us care about your opinions, not your ability to copy and paste.

I find it interesting only in that it shows one more aspect of Gill and Kelly flying by the seat of their pants to support their family. I don't recall exactly how long this was after Gill left his job at Nabisco, but he was supposedly supporting the family doing odd jobs. Until now I hadn't realized that he didn't go directly from Nabisco to the tree service. Before I could sort of respect him leaving his job to start his own business (although doing it with that many kids to support is a little stupid), but for him to leave his job before having a back up plan/ business in place is absolutely crazy. I just hope that with this "new ministry" he will at least keep the tree service business going to support the family. At the very least he could turn it over to some of the older boys who could run it by themselves.

[sarahjames3]

Oh, is that a rumor/misinformation? Sorry.

Yes, it is a rumor and don't feel badly about it - I've seen it on here many times. The Duggars do not now and have never claimed their home as a church.

[HereticHick]

Oh, Spider Burbs, I certainly have some opinions. I very recently developed an opinion about you. Ahem.

Moving on... It is my OPINION that many users of this forum, especially the many users outside of the U.S., do not have access to commercial (i.e. not free) news databases like Nexis, and therefore cannot see articles like this one. It is my OPINION that it is interesting that, just like the Duggars, the local/regional "newsworthiness" of the Bates predates TLC and the Duggar television show. And in my OPINION it is noteworthy that Gil Bates has a past as a minister.

And for those of you outside the southern U.S., I'd like to point out that being a Baptist minister does not equal full time job. My home county (2 counties east of the Bates' county),a rural area, has over ONE HUNDRED Baptist churches. A large percentage of them are not big enough to support their ministers full time. Those guys (yes, no ladies allowed in Southern Baptist tradition) have other jobs/farms/wives who work on the side.

[Spider Burps]

Oh, Spider Burbs, I certainly have some opinions. I very recently developed an opinion about you. Ahem.

Moving on... It is my OPINION that many users of this forum, especially the many users outside of the U.S., do not have access to commercial (i.e. not free) news databases like Nexis, and therefore cannot see articles like this one. It is my OPINION that it is interesting that, just like the Duggars, the local/regional "newsworthiness" of the Bates predates TLC and the Duggar television show. And in my OPINION it is noteworthy that Gil Bates has a past as a minister.

And for those of you outside the southern U.S., I'd like to point out that being a Baptist minister does not equal full time job. My home county (2 counties east of the Bates' county),a rural area, has over ONE HUNDRED Baptist churches. A large percentage of them are not big enough to support their ministers full time. Those guys (yes, no ladies allowed in Southern Baptist tradition) have other jobs/farms/wives who work on the side.

Oh, you're a charming one. I was kind enough to not even insult you, pretending I wanted to hear your opinions and you decide to insinuate that I'm a bitch? Charming. All I did was look at your past posts and realize that nearly everything you've posted has just been copying and pasting from Lexis Nexis. Most anyone who is a higher ed student and/or is an alum has access to Lexis Nexis, and you're posting large chunks of BORINGNESS sans commentary of any sort. In the past, this has not flown. Keep having fun, though, I'm sure a WK or two will pat you on the back and tell you that you're doing us a great service.

ETA: Congrats on using the word "opinion". How about you try to do it in the rest of your posts? It's the same as pasting a link to an article and saying nothing, a la jericho.

[Witsec7]

Oh, you're a charming one. I was kind enough to not even insult you, pretending I wanted to hear your opinions and you decide to insinuate that I'm a bitch? Charming. All I did was look at your past posts and realize that nearly everything you've posted has just been copying and pasting from Lexis Nexis. Most anyone who is a higher ed student and/or is an alum has access to Lexis Nexis, and you're posting large chunks of BORINGNESS sans commentary of any sort. In the past, this has not flown. Keep having fun, though, I'm sure a WK or two will pat you on the back and tell you that you're doing us a great service.

ETA: Congrats on using the word "opinion". How about you try to do it in the rest of your posts? It's the same as pasting a link to an article and saying nothing, a la jericho.

:clap: :clap: The OP writes the words Lexis Nexis like it was an magical incantation.

[Spider Burps]

:clap: :clap: The OP writes the words Lexis Nexis like it was an magical incantation.

Jeeze, be careful or the OP may develop an opinion about you, too! :lol:

[gustava]

I have appreciated the Nexis/Lexis articles.

[Spider Burps]

I have appreciated the Nexis/Lexis articles.

I don't have anything against the articles themselves (though I would prefer that they not be pasted in their entirety... I'm pretty sure that's not legal?), it's the poster's lack of contribution OTHER than the copied/pasted articles. Sure, they've introduced themselves, but nearly every other post is, "Look at what the Arkansas Times said about the Duggars six years ago!!!!" Except there's not even that level of commentary, other than "Let's see what [the great deity that is] Lexis Nexis says today!" Does the poster think the articles are crazy--or do they think the articles are accurate?

NotALoserLikeYou just got called out on this exact same thing today, so why does this poster get a pass? Is it because Lexis Nexis is OMGacademia? (That's a serious question.) It just seems like a rehashing of stuff that we all already know, so I guess that's why I'm so baffled.

[Kitten]

There are some aspects of the Protestant doctrine of "the priesthood of the believer" that I really admire, and I am not snarking. However, the ability of anyone to be a pastor with no formal seminary education is not one of them.

Well, gotta disagree with you on this one. Just as some parents with not even a high school diploma can be excellent homeschoolers, some people without "formal" religious education can be intelligent, well-informed Biblical scholars. And, just as some people with college diplomas can be incredibly inept homeschoolers, some people with official degrees in theology can be ignorant, biased purveyors of appalling aphorisms about religious beliefs and practices.

A formal seminary education is no guarantee of intelligence, ability, or capability when it comes to leading people in religious practice.

A friend of mind once put it beautifully when he said "I'm not really that smart. I just have a curious mind." I'll take a curious mind over a formal degree any day...

[Arete]

A lot of these pastors with no formal education in theology or doctrine make up the theology AND doctrine as they go along. Not to mention the ones without training tend to be the one's that become the "focus" of the individual church. They develop a following not because people agree with the doctrine, love the community, or want to pray with other believers, but to hear "what pastor says". It is done under the guise of "we don't believe in denominations, we are just Christians".

The abuses of Bill Gothard, Steve Maxwell, Pat Robertson, Doug Phillips is a Tool, and Mark Driscoll are just some of the more prominent displays of how people without training think they have something new to say about the Bible and damage people's lives. Of course people with training can also damage people's lives, but when you know what they believe from the outset, you can make an informed decision. The Catholic or Lutheran Church's doctrines are laid out for all to see and decide. These churches lead by every Doug, Gil, and Stevy are able to lure people in and then pull a bait and switch. It's Believer Beware.

Edit to Add-I do not believe a parent without a highschool diploma can be an excellent homeschooler.