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God is pro-life


fundiefan

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I remember listening to a podcast (I can't remember which it was) in which an anti-abortion atheist was interviewed. I found the position to be very perplexing. I googled a bit and it seems like there are a few atheists publicly advocating this stance. It sounds like they hold the position that personhood should be expanded (as it has by many civil rights movements in the past) and not constricted. IMO, the situation of abortion is just not analogous considering the fact that a fetus is dependent upon another person and, logically AND according to Roe v. Wade, this is about conflicting parties' rights. Anyway...this small segment of the atheist/non-religious community exists, but I find it very confusing.

I've heard that argument before from supposed atheists who are pro-life but it always struck me as a strawman argument. If people think a fetus should attain "personhood" before birth, of course there's going to be argument over whether the rights of the mother (as a person) supersede the rights of the fetus (as a person) However, I can only see this coming into play with abortions occurring in later trimesters. If someone wants to try to convince me there's a non-religious reason a 4 week old embryo should be granted the status of a person, I'm going to laugh in their face. A fetus past the point of viability has a better argument to personhood (one I disagree with but don't consider to be outright ridiculous) Except that even the whole "no late term abortion for personhood reasons" argument doesn't work. Almost all abortions in later trimesters involve either problems with the health of the fetus or the health of the mother, so personhood rationale fly out the window.

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I've heard that argument before from supposed atheists who are pro-life but it always struck me as a strawman argument. If people think a fetus should attain "personhood" before birth, of course there's going to be argument over whether the rights of the mother (as a person) supersede the rights of the fetus (as a person) However, I can only see this coming into play with abortions occurring in later trimesters. If someone wants to try to convince me there's a non-religious reason a 4 week old embryo should be granted the status of a person, I'm going to laugh in their face. A fetus past the point of viability has a better argument to personhood (one I disagree with but don't consider to be outright ridiculous) Except that even the whole "no late term abortion for personhood reasons" argument doesn't work. Almost all abortions in later trimesters involve either problems with the health of the fetus or the health of the mother, so personhood rationale fly out the window.

The whole thing doesn't make sense on many levels. First of all, "personhood" doesn't necessarily convey the same rights to all legal persons. Corporations are persons ( :roll: ) and they don't have most of the rights that adult human persons have. Children are persons and they lack many rights that adult persons have. Giving personhood to a fetus would create new rights (the right to mandate the use of another person's organs/body, for one) that are not granted to adult persons with full legal rights. For many reasons, the "personhood" movement never made much sense to me.

The only secular ethical argument I can even imagine would have to do with the potentiality of the fetus. Most atheists rely on some kind of consequentialism as an ethical yardstick. It really doesn't makes sense though....my brain is starting to hurt even trying to come up with a coherent justification.

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I'm not here to engage in a pro-life/pro-choice debate - primarily because I think your prior reasoning is ridiculous and uninformed.

However, I will say that I was completely turned off by an anti-abortion protest I saw the other day. It seemed to be a youth group who had gathered to protest (primarily teens, but some younger children as well) who were dancing around singing.... (to the tune of We're off to See the Wizard)

"We're off to save the babies, the wonderful babies of God....to save, to save, to save, to save, to Saaaaavvve, the wonderful wonderful babies of God."

a. This song was completely annoying and only wanted to make me (someone who is pro-life) to tell them to shut up and go away.

b. They were protesting in front of a inner-city community clinic I volunteer for - a Christian organization that neither promotes nor performs abortions. If you're going to protest get your facts straight.

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I'm not here to engage in a pro-life/pro-choice debate - primarily because I think your prior reasoning is ridiculous and uninformed.

I don't want to ask you to engage in a debate that you are not interested in, but if you were referring to any of my comments I would love to hear why they are ridiculous or uninformed. I consider myself very informed on many levels on this topic, but I am always open to hearing why I might be wrong. If you weren't referring to me, feel free to ignore this.

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It depends on your definitions of "pro-life" and "fundie". By my definitions*, being pro-life (wanting abortion illegalized or restricted to the point of functionally being illegalized) does make you a fundie (wanting to force your religious/moral beliefs onto the rest of the population as a whole)

Also, since you claim to have atheist pro-life friends, maybe you could ask them something I've never understood- exactly what rationale can you use to say abortions shouldn't be allowed that doesn't rely on religious beliefs?

* I believe my definitions are in-line with the most commonly understood uses of those words.

I have asked them what they mean being that they aren't religious and they said they still believe it is a life. I've never asked them if they want abortion made illegal but they have said they do not like abortion.

The abortion issue is not as simple as some make it to be. Some people want it allowed in all cases (including requiring taxpayers to pay for it) and some want it in all cases outlawed. Most people fall in between somewhere. For me I do not support it as a form of birth control and think those who use it that way are borderline sociopaths (I know someone who had 5 abortions). I also do not support it as being taxpayer funded because I don't feel people should fund something they oppose (and yes I feel the same about wars too), except in cases like rape or health. Instead I believe in people being able to support organizations like Planned Parenthood if they choose. I don't support PP anymore after finding out they are corrupt so I have given money to other abortion organizations.

Many people I know oppose abortion but do not want it made illegal. Many of them do things like take in pregnant women and give to food banks. They are good people and don't put them in the same category as those who protest at clinics and want to cut funding.

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I'm not here to engage in a pro-life/pro-choice debate - primarily because I think your prior reasoning is ridiculous and uninformed.

However, I will say that I was completely turned off by an anti-abortion protest I saw the other day. It seemed to be a youth group who had gathered to protest (primarily teens, but some younger children as well) who were dancing around singing.... (to the tune of We're off to See the Wizard)

"We're off to save the babies, the wonderful babies of God....to save, to save, to save, to save, to Saaaaavvve, the wonderful wonderful babies of God."

a. This song was completely annoying and only wanted to make me (someone who is pro-life) to tell them to shut up and go away.

b. They were protesting in front of a inner-city community clinic I volunteer for - a Christian organization that neither promotes nor performs abortions. If you're going to protest get your facts straight.

Who is this directed to? Who is it that you think their reasoning is ridiculous and uninformed? It is kind of hard to tell by your post.

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I have asked them what they mean being that they aren't religious and they said they still believe it is a life. I've never asked them if they want abortion made illegal but they have said they do not like abortion.

Not liking abortion does not equal "pro-life". Many pro-choice people don't like abortions. Also, what does "believe it is a life" even mean? I think everyone can agree that a fetus is alive, however, so are cats and dogs and grass and trees. Not all lives have the same value.

The abortion issue is not as simple as some make it to be. Some people want it allowed in all cases (including requiring taxpayers to pay for it) and some want it in all cases outlawed. Most people fall in between somewhere. For me I do not support it as a form of birth control and think those who use it that way are borderline sociopaths (I know someone who had 5 abortions).

First of all, tax payer money cannot be used to pay for abortions. Secondly, no one uses abortion as birth control, even someone who has had 5 abortions. And on the slim, slim, very slim chance there exists someone who, for absolutely no reason, uses the most expensive, time consuming, and physically taxing method of "birth control" in existence- that's exactly the kind of person who you wouldn't want having a child.

I also do not support it as being taxpayer funded because I don't feel people should fund something they oppose (and yes I feel the same about wars too), except in cases like rape or health. Instead I believe in people being able to support organizations like Planned Parenthood if they choose. I don't support PP anymore after finding out they are corrupt so I have given money to other abortion organizations.

I'm going to ignore the "PP is corrupt" bait. As to the rest of it- tough shit. Living in a society means paying for things you don't use or agree with. I don't agree with war, I don't agree with prison sentences for certain crimes, I don't agree with religious institutions being subsidized by their tax-free status, I don't agree with the "crisis pregnancy centers" getting government money, I don't agree with No Child Left Behind, etc.

Many people I know oppose abortion but do not want it made illegal. Many of them do things like take in pregnant women and give to food banks.

A pregnant woman is not an animal. You don't "take her in". And being supported for a short time while pregnant does not cover lost wages due to pregnancy, medical bills, essentials for the baby, lost wages for taking care of a kid, childcare, essentials for when the cute little baby grows into a hungry child and teenager who needs clothes and school supplies and after school activies and secondary education, etc (ie- all the physical, mental, emotional, and financial toll of having a child that is not alleviated when one is simply "taken it"))

They are good people and don't put them in the same category as those who protest at clinics and want to cut funding.

Do they vote for anti-choice lawmakers and policies? To they vote against social welfare policies and safety nets? Because that still puts them in the same category.

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For me I do not support it as a form of birth control and think those who use it that way are borderline sociopaths (I know someone who had 5 abortions). I also do not support it as being taxpayer funded because I don't feel people should fund something they oppose (and yes I feel the same about wars too), except in cases like rape or health. Instead I believe in people being able to support organizations like Planned Parenthood if they choose. I don't support PP anymore after finding out they are corrupt so I have given money to other abortion organizations.

First of all, I know of no one who uses abortion as a form of birth control. I don't even know what that means. It is VERY expensive and (to varying degrees) a traumatic experience. I know of 3 close friends who each had 3/4/5 abortions respectively. These are all very good friends of mine and none of them are bordering on sociopathy. In fact, they are some of the best people that I know. They don't feel great about what they have been through (most of the pregnancies were results of periods of significant depression, failures of education/support and other issues), but I don't think they could be put into a box coming anywhere near sociopathic. I find the seemingly common notion that women who have repeated unwanted pregnancies and resulting abortion(s) are somehow uncaring and a/immoral to be very offensive. In order to reach that level, I feel that someone would have to be getting pregnant on purpose with the goal of abortion in mind. When a woman has had multiple abortions, there are likely reasons that are not purely selfish or a/immoral.

Second: that's not how taxes work. What do you mean that you don't feel people should fund something that they oppose? We live in a democratic republic that is comprised of two parties. You vote for what your taxes go to. You do not get to pick and choose individual issues...you get to pick and choose individual candidates. Can you imagine the mad house that would result if we allowed all of our citizens to pick and choose which individual issues they find immoral and don't want to support?

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One abortion, I get it, accidents happen. maybe two even, but 5? come on now, that is being careless. Women like this should be using birth control and the one I knew who wasn't was a complete psycho (she was also a hooker too btw).

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One abortion, I get it, accidents happen. maybe two even, but 5? come on now, that is being careless. Women like this should be using birth control and the one I knew who wasn't was a complete psycho (she was also a hooker too btw).

:o

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One abortion, I get it, accidents happen. maybe two even, but 5? come on now, that is being careless. Women like this should be using birth control and the one I knew who wasn't was a complete psycho (she was also a hooker too btw).

Who are you to decide that a person can get another abortion based on how many they have had in the past? You can't make your opinions law. Way to slut shame on the second bolded, bitch. I bet if it was a guy he would be a cool pimp to you, amI right? :roll:

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One abortion, I get it, accidents happen. maybe two even, but 5? come on now, that is being careless. Women like this should be using birth control and the one I knew who wasn't was a complete psycho (she was also a hooker too btw).

Yes...5. One of my good friends had (gasp) 5 abortions. It was mostly because she was in the midst of being diagnosed with bipolar disorder and from what she has shared, she doesn't feel good about it now...but to put her anywhere near being a sociopath is insane to me. She is one of the most wonderful people I know and is not the a/immoral beast that you are imagining. She was using birth control (not effectively, as she wasn't using her meds effectively either) at the time.

*This is not to say that mental illness is necessary for such situations. Some people have low self-esteem to a degree that I can imagine this happening. It is a sad thing and such women are deserving of help, not this type of judgment.

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:o

I know, right experiencedd? People tell me to not get mad if people have different opinions. I'm not mad, I just like to share facts that disprove their opinions. Is it just me, or have we been having a mini-troll overload this weekend? It's not even Friday! :lol:

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Who are you to decide that a person can get another abortion based on how many they have had in the past? And don't just say "It's my opinion!" People with opinions like yours are trying to get abortions legalized. Way to slut shame on the second bolded, bitch. I bet if it was a guy he would be a cool pimp to you, amI right? :roll:

The fact is a woman's reasons for obtaining an abortion (chemical or surgical) are her private business and regardless of whether she is a plumber or sexworker (btw not all sex workers participate in intercourse) the law has maintained we ALL have a right to privacy when it comes to our medical choices. You sound like contemporary puritans who want pregnancy to be a punishment for intercourse and fertility.

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One abortion, I get it, accidents happen. maybe two even, but 5? come on now, that is being careless. Women like this should be using birth control and the one I knew who wasn't was a complete psycho (she was also a hooker too btw).

If this likely fictional "friend" of yours were real, and mentally ill, and supporting herself through sex work, isn't that the kind of person that probably isn't stable enough to carry a pregnancy to term, let alone raise a child?

And as others have said, abortions aren't cheap (they run about $500 each if done early, and raise in price as the pregnancy progresses), and the after-effects would probably put a sex worker out of at least a week's worth of pay, if not more. I sincerely doubt your elusive acquaintance would be making such choices if she had access to better options.

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If this likely fictional "friend" of yours were real, and mentally ill, and supporting herself through sex work, isn't that the kind of person that probably isn't stable enough to carry a pregnancy to term, let alone raise a child?

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Also, this likely fictional friend would certainly not be deserving of the label of sociopath.

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Who are you to decide that a person can get another abortion based on how many they have had in the past? You can't make your opinions law. Way to slut shame on the second bolded, bitch. I bet if it was a guy he would be a cool pimp to you, amI right? :roll:

Oh I am a bitch because she was a hooker who refused to use birth control? No if it was a man who got a woman pregnant 5 times I would think he was a man slut too.

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The fact is a woman's reasons for obtaining an abortion (chemical or surgical) are her private business and regardless of whether she is a plumber or sexworker (btw not all sex workers participate in intercourse) the law has maintained we ALL have a right to privacy when it comes to our medical choices. You sound like contemporary puritans who want pregnancy to be a punishment for intercourse and fertility.

I meant Illegalized, woops. :oops: Second bolded: her or me?

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THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Also, this likely fictional friend would certainly not be deserving of the label of sociopath.

Who said she was a friend? she is someone I think is disgusting and was abusing the system.

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If this likely fictional "friend" of yours were real, and mentally ill, and supporting herself through sex work, isn't that the kind of person that probably isn't stable enough to carry a pregnancy to term, let alone raise a child?

And as others have said, abortions aren't cheap (they run about $500 each if done early, and raise in price as the pregnancy progresses), and the after-effects would probably put a sex worker out of at least a week's worth of pay, if not more. I sincerely doubt your elusive acquaintance would be making such choices if she had access to better options.

She should have been using birth control not having abortions.

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Who said she was a friend? she is someone I think is disgusting and was abusing the system.

It doesn't matter what you think, it's her body and her choice. Deal with it.

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Who said she was a friend? she is someone I think is disgusting and was abusing the system.

Do you think Quiverfull families like the Duggars are abusing the system by having so many kids?

edit: and the troll's still lurking, but not replying, as always. Come back, honey. :animals-chickencatch:

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