What would you say to someone reading a Maxwell book?

[Guest Anonymous]

Nooooooooo! That just makes more work for the library pages.

ETA: I haven't been to NJQ in ages - why has Vyckie lost credibility?

I was just giving a personal opinion; nothing 'big' has happened at NLQ recently, but over a long period Vyckie aired lots of details about her children's private lives on various blogs and forums, hitting the delete button only when she realised it reflected more badly on her than anyone else.

[Katydid]

I wouldn't deface a library book, but would insert a loose leaf paper of notes.

I'd not refer to NLQ, partly because I think Vyckie has lost so much credibility that the site is a bit 'tainted', but also because Steve Maxwell's cult is a very different kettle of fish to many of the other fundie families, For a start, there is next to no pressure on his daughters to start filling their quivers, because his overwhelming goal is to shelter them to the point that they will never have lives of their own.

I'd second the idea of a brief checklist of reasons why Steve Maxwell is a cult leader, and maybe put in an FJ calling card/website reference.

Why has Vyckie lost credibility? I remember hearing her story a while back and checking out the site a long time ago. Did something happen?

[Guest Anonymous]

Why has Vyckie lost credibility? I remember hearing her story a while back and checking out the site a long time ago. Did something happen?

See the post directly above your own.

[Letgo]

My county library system has 6 copies of Keeping Our Children's Hearts: Our Vital Priority by Steve and Teri Maxwell.

Is your area very conservative, with lots of fundies? I was kind of worried when I read that that you had found six copies. Maybe someone donated them. I kind of want to read it but I would never buy it. I just checked our library system (two counties and a community college are included) and there are NO Maxwell books to be found-I checked for Steve, Teri, and Sarah. Yay!

[LilMissMetaphor]

I don't think "....is a cult" is going to convince your average Christian/fundie reader, nor is the average person going to be motivated enough to check out a website. JMO. Perhaps simply write "Unbiblical" at relevant points, on Post-Its, and give short reasons why, if you're up to it.

[Talitha Cumi]

I hadn't thought of that (about Vyckie losing credibility;) the Bible quotes idea is good.

What happened to Vyckie?

ETA: On finishing the thread, nvm.

[jaynie]

It seems like the only people who would be checking out a maxwell book are fundies, people on the brink of fundiedom, and snarkers. The snarkers you don't have to worry about, and fundies may be too far gone, so I would focus on the on-the-cusp types. Saying "this is a cult" might come across as very hostile and it could be easily dismissed because it looks so nice and happy etc etc. The cult checklist, on the other hand, might work, but I'd be careful about cross-referencing so it isn't dismissed outright.

I would maybe make notes about things like "the degree of isolation seems a bit extreme" or "not sure these ideas on courtship work too well" (I haven't actually read the books so I don't know what they cover!), just subtle little things that might be taken as the opinion of a non-snarker. Mind you, I'm not sure how that would work with post-it notes. If you want to be direct, NLQ might work even though Vyckie has been a bit discredited (the gist of the site remains a useful starting point), or maybe recovering grace -- I know it's ATI and the Maxwells aren't anymore, but it covers a lot of the same issues, and I think is pretty good about appealing to conservative Christians.

[Black Aliss]

Is your area very conservative, with lots of fundies? I was kind of worried when I read that that you had found six copies.

The county library system serves nearly 2 million people over approx. 2000 square miles. Overall we're pretty liberal/libertarian, but we certainly have our pockets of fundies, especially in the far corner where I live. There's a Vision Forum congregation just down the street from me and 4 fundie churches in the other direction between me and the nearest town. But, yeah, I thought that was too many copies of a Maxwell book, even for this place. At least it's the only Maxwell book in their catalog.

[defrauding]

At least it's the only Maxwell book in their catalog.

Actually, your note should encourage readers to contact the library and request that it stock more Titus2 books. After all, the Maxwells love it when people can borrow their material from a library. :twisted:

[B5SnowDog]

I was just giving a personal opinion; nothing 'big' has happened at NLQ recently, but over a long period Vyckie aired lots of details about her children's private lives on various blogs and forums, hitting the delete button only when she realised it reflected more badly on her than anyone else.

Ahhh, ok.

[crazyforkate]

The following:

STOP!

Don't touch it.

Leave the room and tell a grown-up.

[Guest Anonymous]

The following:

STOP!

Don't touch it.

Leave the room and tell a grown-up.

*pushes the imaginary like button*

[Jana814]

I would be quite suprised if I saw anyone around me reading any of their books. I have to admit I did buy their whole series, I barely even look through them because they were so bad!! They honestly say that if do u not do what these books say then you are a bad person and your will be a disaster.

[Black Aliss]

Still plowing through this rather slim volume that would be less than half the size it is if a moderately competent editor gone through it. Things that creep me out:

1) Steve has a weekly 1:1 with each child. It takes place in his and Teri's bedroom. Steve lays [sic] on the bed and the child sits in a chair next to the bed and they talk.

2) When Nathan was 17 he went away from home for six weeks for some unspecified training after which he didn't want to come home. It's not clear whether he eventually came home on his own or if they brought him home, but they were careful never to let "that" happen again. See how easy it is to lose your children's hearts?

[Bethella]

Still plowing through this rather slim volume that would be less than half the size it is if a moderately competent editor gone through it. Things that creep me out:

1) Steve has a weekly 1:1 with each child. It takes place in his and Teri's bedroom. Steve lays [sic] on the bed and the child sits in a chair next to the bed and they talk.

2) When Nathan was 17 he went away from home for six weeks for some unspecified training after which he didn't want to come home. It's not clear whether he eventually came home on his own or if they brought him home, but they were careful never to let "that" happen again. See how easy it is to lose your children's hearts?

I wonder if it was the ATI Alert Camp or working at Gothard's HQ? Maybe that was the straw that broke Steve's back in getting them to leave ATI? I have to say that I feel sorry for Nathan- he got a taste of freedom and then got sucked back in, now he knows what he's missing.

[sparkles]

The one that really baffled me was Sarah's comment about how at her first sleepover she had a terrible experience and was grateful never to have to go on one again (I'm paraphrasing here but that was the essence of it.) What could have been so horrible? Was she overcome because they had freedom of choice at snack time and she couldn't handle the shock of being allowed a cookie AND an ice cream? Did she get lost on her way to the bathroom? Was she allowed to have FRIVOLOUS FUN? Was there a TELEVISION in the house? Or on a serious note, did she get homesick because it was her first time away from home (something we managed to deal with by distracting the kid in question with a fun activitiy and/or letting them call home for some reassurance--no one ever left)?

The thing about the Maxwells is they never, ever give specifics as to what was so bad or wrong or whatever. It's just a whole lot of nebulous blather. When I went to sleep-away I never wanted to come home because I was having fun and I didn't want it to end. None of the kids did. But we did go home, got over the sadness and life went on as normal. No one turned into a serial killer or a drug addict as a result. Steve, of course, has to react by banning time away (and honestly, maybe Nathan was glad to be out from under Steve's iron fist for once). One of the kids says a word (again, not specified) that Steve doesn't like? Instead of actually reasoning with the kid by explaining WHY it's not a word he approves of, he bans the environment where the kid heard the word.

Maybe the reason Steve never gives specifics is because he knows that once people can see how he overreacts to even the most innocuous incidents, they'll start to realize how extreme and over the top his teachings are.

[YPestis]

The sleepover thing was probably something like girls gossiping or talking about boys, or maybe they watched a PG-13 movies. Knowing the Maxwells, any of those things are pathways to hell. Sarah talking about her childhood days when her parents weren't as big on sheltering. They allowed her to go to a sleepover with neighborhood kids. I remember she said nothing illegal happened and that she didn't think it was bad at that time, but looking back on it, is grateful that her parents won't allow that type of exposure for her younger siblings. The Maxwells reacts strongly to any outside influences these days. I can imagine the nightmares Steve has after his FreeJinger encounters!

[TMS]

I remember reading once in either a Moms or Dads Corner, or one of their books, that giving too many details about bad incidents was wrong, causes gossip, feeds our sinful nature, or whatever - and used the Bible as an example of how bad things that happened are recorded in the Bible but there are no graphic details.

[B5SnowDog]

The one that really baffled me was Sarah's comment about how at her first sleepover she had a terrible experience and was grateful never to have to go on one again (I'm paraphrasing here but that was the essence of it.) What could have been so horrible?

She could've been bullied. I was pantsed at a sleepover and it was awful.

[Jana814]

The sleepover thing was probably something like girls gossiping or talking about boys, or maybe they watched a PG-13 movies. Knowing the Maxwells, any of those things are pathways to hell. Sarah talking about her childhood days when her parents weren't as big on sheltering. They allowed her to go to a sleepover with neighborhood kids. I remember she said nothing illegal happened and that she didn't think it was bad at that time, but looking back on it, is grateful that her parents won't allow that type of exposure for her younger siblings. The Maxwells reacts strongly to any outside influences these days. I can imagine the nightmares Steve has after his FreeJinger encounters!

Their are soo many things wrong with the Maxwell family. The biggest one for me has to be the fact that they don't allow any of their kids true joy in their childhoods. Sure Sarah might have been unconfortable at the sleepover but I am sure if she was able to go to more of them that would have changed.

[sparkles]

She could've been bullied. I was pantsed at a sleepover and it was awful.

That is, of course, a possibility and I might even tend to believe it if not for the fact that every single normal kid encounter, experience and activity that the Maxwells had turned out to be horrible. Every. Single. One. Now what are the odds of that? So I take their (Steve implanted) memories with a rather large grain of salt.

[BabyFullOfSin]

This thread scared me into checking to make sure my local library does not carry any of the Pearl's books - Thankfully it does not!

[gardenvarietycitizen]

She could've been bullied. I was pantsed at a sleepover and it was awful.

It happens. I remember going to a sleepover (as not even remotely one of the cool kids either, but hey, I was invited) around grade 4 and being super nervous about fitting in and if I would know what to do or whatever.

Well, they did the "hand in warm water makes sleeping people pee" trick on one girl there. It wasn't me. But I didn't say anything (because I was relieved it wasn't me, and I wanted to fit in), and I have to admit that 30+ years on I feel TERRIBLE about it now, that I didn't stand up. I have no idea who that victim even was, now, as I was an outsider too and didn't know half the people there even at the time or much of what was going on, but... yeah. It was shitty, and even my small part in it I regret now.

Not that that was the worst of it either, I know I helped taunt some younger kids (in an environment where I actually understood all that was going on) and I remember not having any idea how bad it was, then, but again, 30+ years on I cringe thinking of it. I was (am?) just terrible.

Reading Sarah's account made me think it's something she thought was somehow going against her sheltering, so I'm thinking it might have been either TV or some (probably innocent by any secular standard) boy talk. But, don't know. I'd love to know, too.

[gilora]

Nothing.

I read the wackiest and scariest RW/fundie stuff all the time. It doesn't mean I believe it. It's useful info because you can see what other people are believing.

This. I live in the bluest part of a blue state and often read wacky RW stuff for the same reason. I find the best time for me to read is on my public transportation commute. I'm grateful that no one has approached me to discuss what I happen to be reading. Freedom of speech/association goes both ways.