The Pearl Fangirl on Spankings and Mental Disorders

[lilwriter85]

Nitwit Lori did a blog entry in response to a recent Huffpost article that talked about study linking spankings to mental disorders. Since Lori is a Pearl fangirl, she defended her stance that spanking is a "training" method.

lorialexander.blogspot.com/2012/09/spankings-cause-mental-disorder.html

Today most children aren't spanked and they are out of control. Yes, I know many children who have not been spanked grow up to be good, self-controlled adults. However, if you ask teachers today, children are out of control. I know. I taught for four years and it wasn't easy. The lack of discipline is evident.

To say that there is so much mental disorders today because of spankings is a stretch. There seems to be more mental illnesses today in an age where spanking is frowned upon than ever before.

[singsingsing]

Oh really? Well, I was spanked as a child and I have anxiety and depression, so I guess it didn't work. Maybe I just wasn't beaten hard enough. :roll:

BTW, I'm not a teacher, but I often work with children and have for some time, and I haven't ever encountered one child who was out of control. A few with some behavioural problems, sure. But out of control? No. I think children who are truly out of control are relatively rare, probably no more common than they were in the days of yore, and often the product of an abusive environment.

[Distant Lines]

This freaking idiot! There are more documented cases of mental disorders now because they actually get diagnosed. Back in the 50s and 60s, mental disorders didn't really exist like they do now. Doctors knew so much less about them than they know now.

There are so many other ways to discipline a child outside of spanking. Even if there is a lack of discipline that doesn't mean parents need to bring out the paddles. Spanking is not the cure to our society.

[Claddagh]

Some kids are more wiggly and active than others. It doesn't meant that they're "out of control."

Oh really? Well, I was spanked as a child and I have anxiety and depression, so I guess it didn't work. Maybe I just wasn't beaten hard enough. :roll:

I was spanked as a kid and also have depression issues.

When I was about four or so I remember having a babysitter who used to slap me hard across the face if I misbehaved. The only thing it trained me for is she had to work to catch me if she felt I misbehaved.

Edited to fix a typo.

[teecher17]

Well I am a teacher in an urban, economically depressed school and I have seen children out of control. I have taught kids who were seriously disturbed and kids with minor behavioral issues . I do NOT believe in spanking (did not spank my own kids) but I know out of control children exist and there are more than you would think. I see a lot of kids whose lives are not structured and have been given few boundaries. Discipline is important when raising kids and there are so many other ways of providing that besides hitting.

[Koala]

Well I am a teacher in an urban, economically depressed school and I have seen children out of control. I have taught kids who were seriously disturbed and kids with minor behavioral issues . I do NOT believe in spanking (did not spank my own kids) but I know out of control children exist and there are more than you would think. I see a lot of kids whose lives are not structured and have been given few boundaries. Discipline is important when raising kids and there are so many other ways of providing that besides hitting.

I would venture that many of the "out of control" children we see in society are hit often. Hitting is often the response of a lazy parent.

[singsingsing]

I could have phrased my comment better. I have no doubt that out of control children exist; it's just that this blogger makes it sound like they are an epidemic in every classroom in America, which I don't believe.

[mirele]

This freaking idiot! There are more documented cases of mental disorders now because they actually get diagnosed. Back in the 50s and 60s, mental disorders didn't really exist like they do now. Doctors knew so much less about them than they know now.

There are so many other ways to discipline a child outside of spanking. Even if there is a lack of discipline that doesn't mean parents need to bring out the paddles. Spanking is not the cure to our society.

When I was a girl, back in the dark ages, it was believed that girls could not have Asperger's syndrome (aka high-functioning autism). Of course, if I'd been diagnosed then, I'm not sure what they would have done for me, but perhaps I could have gotten some behavioral training that might have eased my way into adulthood, instead of having to painfully learn social cues. But yeah, more kids are getting diagnosed now.

I did read yesterday about a 13 YO kid who has been in jail for the last two years on charges of murder and sexual assault. The whole story is tragic--from a mother who was all of 12 when she gave birth to him, to a drug and alcohol fueled family life--but paddling wouldn't help this kid. And given that it's Florida, Gov. Rick Scott isn't interested in spending the money it would take to get the kid the kind of therapy to make him a regular member of society. Which is another thing I despise about fundies--they want everything done on the cheap.

[grovelina]

I know that Lori discounts actual research, but most of what I have read states authoritative rather than authoritarian discipline is more effective. Also, that "while physical punishment by parents or teachers may produce conformity in the immediate situation, in the long run it tends to increase the probability of deviance, including delinquency in adolescence and wife-beating, child abuse, and crime outside the family (such as robbery, assault, and homicide) as an adult."

Strauss, Murry A. "Discipline and Deviance: Physical Punishment of Children and Violence and Other Crime in Adulthood" Social Problems, Vol. 38, No. 2 (May, 1991), pp. 133-154.

[Dollypeeps]

Spanking isn't the answer and the next person on FB to post I was spanked and it didn't harm me shall not be polite I shall be deleting them.

It pisses me of cos a spanking is a beating not a skelpt arse for being naughty. It's a controlled measure of abuse done by your parents and is measured out slowly because they think you deserve it. Oh yeah I was 3 when I got my first beating in the name of chastisement back in the 60's. Did anyone care no cos it was normal. I do know that if my mother did that now she would be in jail. She still thinks spanking is ok and I would never ever leave her with the kids at all and she wonders why. I have said and she said it didn't harm you. I can say it did cos I would get wise to when I was due a beating. I learnt to avoid her at all costs and I have depression and anxiety problems.

What the hell is this "train" crap for a child anyways and my mother would of loved the term and she wasnt fundie either.

We don't even train dogs anymore. We do not do corrections on them but we do on kids in the UK the Pearls I believe have been banned because of their book but don't quote me on that.

I don't spank/smack my kids at all. There is other things you can do to show them it is wrong

[hyperactress23]

As someone who was spanked as a child (rarely, since I was a naturally good kid), I don't see the benefit of spanking. It's quick and simple and then it's over and you move on with your life. I was more likely to follow a rule to avoid being grounded than to avoid being spanked. It doesn't teach any lesson other than that if you're bad it's okay for someone to hit you. I was never spanked in the heat of the moment, and I never once considered myself abused. It has always been obvious to me that my parents love me. At the same time, it scares me when I study plays like A Streetcar Named Desire and find myself understanding Stella's motivation for everything she does.

I don't plan on ever spanking my own children, simply because I think there are better ways to discipline children that will actually teach them lessons. While I obviously have no actual parenting experience, I have worked with kids enough to know that oftentimes kids who are labeled "out of control" are definitely the result of lazy parenting. Many parents have trouble telling their kids "no" out of fear that they'll hate them. I can never understand how this mentality develops when I see kids get over being mad at me before their five minute time-out is even over. Obviously parenting is different than just taking care of kids for a couple hours a day, but the blanket statement that "children are out of control" is just not true, because if I could control a class full of kids for two hours a day at seventeen years old (still being a kid myself), then obviously it's not a lack of spanking that makes these kids "out of control".

[crazytalk]

Anecdote alert, re: out of control kids in the classroom. When my kid was 4, he was in a preschool program (full time) taught by a young man who was terrible with classroom management. The guy was super nice, and tried like hell to get the kids to listen, but they just never took him seriously. So they - as a group - were kind of out of control.... out of his control at least. I always said they looked like untrained monkeys running around, and there the teacher would be saying "Matthew, you're going to have to stay inside for recess" (empty threat), or "Robert I'm going to call your mom" (ditto). The guy just didn't know how to get them to fall in line.

Then the following year, he was in a Pre-K program at the same school, with the same kids, but taught by a certified Kindergarten teacher .... she was AMAZING with classroom management. All of us parents would be awed by our kids whenever we went in there. The kids knew the expectations and generally behaved appropriately. I never saw them running around acting like untrained monkeys like I did in that other teacher's classroom. They raised their hands, sat where they were supposed to, played nicely, etc. It was amazing - I never knew my kid had it in him, lol.

So, my take is that out of control classes are because the teacher needs to figure out how to manage the class better. Ergo, Lori sucked at keeping the kids in order. Which is probably why she spanks - she doesn't have any other tools in her bag.

[teecher17]

So, my take is that out of control classes are because the teacher needs to figure out how to manage the class better. Ergo, Lori sucked at keeping the kids in order. Which is probably why she spanks - she doesn't have any other tools in her bag.

Well I do not completely agree with that statement. While it is true a teacher with poor management will have an out of control class, I am talking about the majority of GOOD teachers I have worked with. I am also talking not about an entire classroom full of children, but one or two children in a class of 33. I have taught one seriously out of control child a year for most of my 20+ years experience Most of the teachers I know in this district have had the same experiences. I have seen out of control children throughout my school every year. I will say that my own children attended a suburban school in a middle class area and the same was not true in those classrooms. There were seriously out of control kids in our neighborhood school but they were USUALLY dealt with and received the services they needed. That is not always the case in an urban school.

It is not always the teachers fault! I'm sorry to sound so defensive but it feels like teacher season in America right now. It irks me when people look only at their own poor teacher experiences ( and of course there are some ineffective teachers out there) and think that is how every teacher is. It's just not true. My point was that I believe there are more out of control children in our country that you might think.

[teecher17]

So, my take is that out of control classes are because the teacher needs to figure out how to manage the class better. Ergo, Lori sucked at keeping the kids in order. Which is probably why she spanks - she doesn't have any other tools in her bag.

Well I do not completely agree with that statement. While it is true a teacher with poor management will have an out of control class, I am talking about the majority of GOOD teachers I have worked with. I am also talking not about an entire classroom full of children, but one or two children in a class of 33. I have taught one seriously out of control child a year for most of my 20+ years experience. Most of the teachers I know in this district have had the same experiences. I have seen out of control children throughout my school every year. I will say that my own children attended a suburban school in a middle class area and the same was not true in those classrooms. There were seriously out of control kids in our neighborhood school but they were USUALLY dealt with and received the services they needed. That is not always the case in an urban school.

It is not always the teachers fault! I'm sorry to sound so defensive but it feels like teacher season in America right now. It irks me when people look only at their own poor teacher experiences ( and of course there are some ineffective teachers out there) and think that is how every teacher is. It's just not true. My point was that I believe there are more out of control children in our country that you might think.

[slickcat79]

Well I do not completely agree with that statement. While it is true a teacher with poor management will have an out of control class, I am talking about the majority of GOOD teachers I have worked with. I am also talking not about an entire classroom full of children, but one or two children in a class of 33. I have taught one seriously out of control child a year for most of my 20+ years experience. Most of the teachers I know in this district have had the same experiences. I have seen out of control children throughout my school every year. I will say that my own children attended a suburban school in a middle class area and the same was not true in those classrooms. There were seriously out of control kids in our neighborhood school but they were USUALLY dealt with and received the services they needed. That is not always the case in an urban school.

It is not always the teachers fault! I'm sorry to sound so defensive but it feels like teacher season in America right now. It irks me when people look only at their own poor teacher experiences ( and of course there are some ineffective teachers out there) and think that is how every teacher is. It's just not true. My point was that I believe there are more out of control children in our country that you might think.

I don't think crazytalk was responding to you specifically, nor was she suggesting that it's always the teacher's fault. She was both (mildly) critical and complimentary of teachers she has interacted with, and clearly noted it was an anecdote and not meant to apply universally. I think you'll find people on this board generally hold teachers in high regard, and we are well aware that not all teachers are bad just because some are ineffective.

Lori made the suggestion that most children are out of control, after she spent 4 years in the classroom. That leads me to think that the problem is with Lori and not with the majority of her students. Even your own posts seem to indicate that you would not agree with her assessment and, as usual, she is off her nut.

[lilwriter85]

Out of control kids do exist, but I get the vibe that Lori wasn't a great teacher and didn't know how to control a classroom. She probably disliked being a teacher because she couldn't discipline her students with spanking.

[crazytalk]

thank you slickcat79 -yes, on all points. I'm in awe of teachers in general. It's not an easy job, and I think you need some special skills to 1) relate to kids, 2) effectively teach them whatever you're teaching, 3) get them to trust you, and 4) get them to respect and listen to you (i.e., manage your classroom effectively). My point was that if Lori is talking about all those crazy out of control children.... she probably was just not very good at classroom management, and let them run around like monkeys while throwing out empty threats and then probably losing her cool every so often and freaking out at them.

I think an out of control child (because the child has behavior problems or ODD or whatever) is probably a lot less common - and very different than - a classroom with an out of control class. I think these are two very different things.

ETA: I stand by what I said - an out of control class is probably because the teacher isn't managing effectively. I didn't say out of control children are the teacher's fault.

[teecher17]

I think an out of control child (because the child has behavior problems or ODD or whatever) is probably a lot less common - and very different than - a classroom with an out of control class. I think these are two very different things.

I would definitely agree with that.

Even your own posts seem to indicate that you would not agree with her assessment and, as usual, she is off her nut.

and that.

[Hane]

Teecher17, I agree with you about "open season on teachers," but crazytalk's post above pointed out the high level of success a teacher can have when s/he has been educated in classroom management skills. Back in the early '70s, in an otherwise excellent teaching program, we received *no* training in classroom management.

I have learned two important points:

1. Hitting=lazy parenting.

2. A child will only succeed if there is good-faith cooperation between the parent/s and the teacher. Not "how dare you criticize my little angel" or "this particular student is rubbing me the wrong way, so I'll just give up on him/her."

[Hane]

Double post--damn iPhone.

[Koala]

Gotta love this reply:

I believe no spanking actually leads to abuse because parents use ineffective forms of "discipline" which DO NOT work and children get more and more out of control and the parent grows angrier until they snap! I spend lots of my grandparenting time helping my grown children with discipline and encouraging them to spank when necessary. Of course, I spend a lot of time loving and caring for those grandchildren also and they love me a lot and are not afraid of me. Children feel safer with loving discipline because it brings order and peace out of chaos and fighting with siblings and neglectful parenting. ( The enemy will always lie & accuse) Love & prayers, in Jesus,Cynthia

Because kids only misbehave because they haven't been hit enough, and parents are only abusive when they haven't been able to let off steam by hitting so then they really "snap" which I guess includes hitting. So to conclude, according to Grandma Dearest, parents should hit so they don't hit. Interesting.

I also found this statement to be absolutely chilling:

I spend lots of my grandparenting time helping my grown children with discipline and encouraging them to spank when necessary.

[Jezebel]

Out of control kids do exist, but I get the vibe that Lori wasn't a great teacher and didn't know how to control a classroom. She probably disliked being a teacher because she couldn't discipline her students with spanking.

Yes, this.

As for my own experience, spanking made me bitter--it never seemed a fair punishment, even when I agreed that I'd done something wrong. I already had plenty of reasons to be mistrustful of authority due to my father's crappy, emotionally abusive behavior, and I already felt like what I thought or felt didn't really matter. And that I was being bullied at school and neither my parents nor my teachers were willing to help me at all? RAAAGE. Spanking just magnified all that.

And spanking made me sneaky. I learned to avoid punishment by being compliant around my parents. I tested their boundaries--how far could I go before they'd resort to spanking?--and managed to stay just within them most of the time. I learned to read the danger signs and pull back before things got out of hand. But I also did as I pleased once my parents were were safely out of range. I ended up acting out a lot of my rage by taking it out on my siblings, as well as being a profound underachiever in school.

I still remember the last time anyone spanked me. I was about 10 or 11, and my dad was the one doing it. It didn't hurt so bad when my mom did it, but my dad's a big guy and has a cruel streak, so even the threat of a spanking from him brought on a lot of dread. I'd started to cry, but just as he was about to land the first blow something clicked in my head--I suddenly decided I wasn't going to show any reaction. I wasn't going to make any noise, and I wasn't going to cry or thrash around, and I was going to try not to flinch, if I could. All this came to me in a flash.

So when he hit me, I just stayed in my head and focused on controlling my reaction. It hurt like hell, and I was aware of that, but since I'd shut off my emotional reaction to it I felt very distanced from the whole experience. I just focused on not making a sound, and I was surprised at how easy it was. It was even satisfying, having that control--which is pretty horrifying when I think of it in retrospect.

It worked--he got in maybe half a dozen hard swats, and I was in the right headspace where I could have taken more; I was ready for it, and determined to outlast him. But when all he got was dead silence and no struggle it freaked him the fuck out. I wasn't even crying when he pushed me off his lap. I know he said something harsh to me, but it didn't matter--I'd beat him. I'd won. I looked him dead in the eye and saw that he was really rattled by the whole thing, but I felt this eerie calm. I knew he was never going to spank me again. (He threatened to once, months later, but all I had to do was look at him as if to say, "Oh really? You think so?" and he backed right down.)

So yeah, spanking? That's how I learned some incredibly dysfunctional early lessons about relating to power and the strength of my own will. It never solved a single behavior problem; merely drove it underground. I swear, if I'd got my Hogwarts letter (as I should have, darn it), I'm sure I would have sorted into Slytherin after that episode.

And when I think back on that, I wonder just how many bright, strong-willed fundie kids are growing up sneaky, mean, bitter, and ready to flee the nest at the first opportunity--while their plumbing-line wielding parents pride themselves on having such obedient children with a heart for Jesus.

[DarkAnts]

Children need immediate logical consequences if they are behaving in an inappropriate manner. Hitting is not a logical consequence. A logical consequence is something like not being allowed to go out and play after dinner because you did not finish your homework. Or, being removed from a restaurant because you are not behaving. I have seen parents who deal out empty threats. Their kids know they are empty threats and continue with the wrong behavior. The same goes for teachers.

I know that this works. Growing up, I had a tantrum in a restaurant my family was eating at. My dad took me to the car and sat with me while my mom and sister ate. Then, my mom came out and sat with me while my dad ate and my sister got desert. I got to eat a sandwich when we got home. I was not allowed to go to a restaurant again until after I had shown my parents that I would behave at the dinner table. It only happened once because I knew what the consequences were. Eating out was a privilege. No spanking was required in order for me to learn this lesson.

[JaChelle Sugar]

Children need immediate logical consequences if they are behaving in an inappropriate manner. Hitting is not a logical consequence. A logical consequence is something like not being allowed to go out and play after dinner because you did not finish your homework. Or, being removed from a restaurant because you are not behaving. I have seen parents who deal out empty threats. Their kids know they are empty threats and continue with the wrong behavior. The same goes for teachers.

I know that this works. Growing up, I had a tantrum in a restaurant my family was eating at. My dad took me to the car and sat with me while my mom and sister ate. Then, my mom came out and sat with me while my dad ate and my sister got desert. I got to eat a sandwich when we got home. I was not allowed to go to a restaurant again until after I had shown my parents that I would behave at the dinner table. It only happened once because I knew what the consequences were. Eating out was a privilege. No spanking was required in order for me to learn this lesson.

*bows to the wise parenting of your mom and dad*

eta: :lol: post count as of this post is *drumroll* 69! *giggles like 12-y/o boy*

[Boltingmadonna]

jezebel said:

So yeah, spanking? That's how I learned some incredibly dysfunctional early lessons about relating to power and the strength of my own will. It never solved a single behavior problem; merely drove it underground.

No kidding. That was my experience, too. Spanking also taught me to dissociate in moments of crisis. This can be useful in emergencies, but a cold calm in which you are detached from your own body and do not feel your own feelings can be quite problematic in other situations. Plus, underneath all that control is RAAAAGE which I still feel to this day. I used to yell at my father, "That didn't hurt and you can't make me say I'm sorry!" Of course, if he'd used the Pearls' approach, I'd either be broken or I'd be dead, but fortunately, he was not that well organized.

My siblings all have fairly serious emotional problems as a result of being spanked, too. My father now has Alzheimer's and yells a lot, and it is still extremely difficult for any of us to be in the same room with him to give him care, because we feel terror when the yelling starts. We anticipate that if we make any moves or say anything, it will escalate to hitting us, so we feel like shutting down or fleeing instead of taking the adult role that is now needed to deal with his illness. Of course, he is weak and sick now and can't hurt us (except mentally) but we still have to tell ourselves that repeatedly, because of the earlier conditioning.