Did any one you see the movie Monumental?

[homeschoolmomma1]

It has taken me like 3 times to watch this. I just don't know. Does anyone know history enough? I feel like this is not historically accorate. I honestly have no clue.

[debrand]

I haven't seen it. Can you list some of the more troubling or confusing parts of the film?

[homeschoolmomma1]

Well like the way the pilgrims came to America. First they were waiting for a ship, but the captain was double dealing so they threw everyone in jail. They got out then went to Holland then back to England. Got on Mayflower to America. Then Kirk said that the Pilgrims were not all bad and did not have issues with the Indians like he was taught in school. Yes there were some that did, but the Pilgrims came with their families so I guess when you take a family you don't hurt the Indians?

This is really bad way of describing. He was so concerned the children had to work. Honestly, there were no child labor laws till the 1900s. Doesn't Kirk know this? I do defend that God was placed in a lot of early documents and on our money etc. However, that is how people were. God was their life. It was how they lived. If don't know how to explain it. They knew nothing else I guess.

I am a Christian and yes I feel like America needs to take a stop back, but what Kirk wants is a theocracy and that is what this movie is driving toward. They are now looking at some statue paid for by congress that took 70 years and no one knows of this statue in Plymouth. Sorry they gave no name. They walk through it. Apparently this statue is the way to live. The Pilgrams/ forefathers left it here for us to keep learning from.

Here is a radio interview with Kirk explaining it. I did not listen to it, but he does explain it

Sorry I have a cold debrand and even I don't make sense lol

[formergothardite]

I'm guessing Cameron doesn't agree with Cracked's version of history? LOL

http://www.cracked.com/article_19864_6- ... erica.html

[homeschoolmomma1]

This is an article saying it is not correct

http://www.religiontoday.com/news/monum ... urate.html

[GeoBQn]

David Barton is in this movie. That is all I need to know that everything in it is fake fake fake.

My recommended reading list:

Lies My Teacher Told Me and Lies Across America by James Loewen

Liars for Jesus by Chris Rodda

[homeschoolmomma1]

David Barton is in this movie. That is all I need to know that everything in it is fake fake fake.

My recommended reading list:

Lies My Teacher Told Me and Lies Across America by James Loewen

Liars for Jesus by Chris Rodda

Why is David Barton bad?

[formergothardite]

From what I can remember, he is not opposed to lying and taking things out of context to make history seem more "Christian."

[Guest Anonymous]

Why is David Barton bad?

David Barton parlayed a career as a "historian" out of a bachelor's degree. He has been known to make stuff up. In fact, his book about Jefferson was withdrawn because the publishers worked out that it wasn't quite... factual.

Edited for accuracy.

[formergothardite]

Even conservative Christians have concerns about Barton:

Jay W. Richards, senior fellow at the Discovery Institute, and author with James Robison of Indivisible: Restoring Faith, Family, and Freedom Before It’s Too Late, spoke alongside Barton at Christian conferences as recently as last month. Richards says in recent months he has grown increasingly troubled about Barton’s writings, so he asked 10 conservative Christian professors to assess Barton’s work.

Their response was negative. Some examples: Glenn Moots of Northwood University wrote that Barton in The Jefferson Lies is so eager to portray Jefferson as sympathetic to Christianity that he misses or omits obvious signs that Jefferson stood outside “orthodox, creedal, confessional Christianity.†A second professor, Glenn Sunshine of Central Connecticut State University, said that Barton‘s characterization of Jefferson’s religious views is “unsupportable.†A third, Gregg Frazer of The Master’s College, evaluated Barton’s video America’s Godly Heritage and found many of its factual claims dubious, such as a statement that “52 of the 55 delegates at the Constitutional Convention were ‘orthodox, evangelical Christians.’†Barton told me he found that number in M.E. Bradford’s A Worthy Company

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/exclusi ... ntroversy/

[GeoBQn]

He claims to be a historian, but has no academic history background. He started the group Wall Builders and tries to prove that America was founded as a Christian nation. He does this by misquoting, taking quotes out of context, and outright lying. He was one of the major players involved in changing Texas history textbooks to make them more conservative, more fundamentalist Christian, and racist. His most recent book, The Jefferson Lies, was removed from publication after complaints from (conservative!) professors that the book misrepresented historical material and had too many fabrications.

[NoQuiverNoCry]

[snip] They are now looking at some statue paid for by congress that took 70 years and no one knows of this statue in Plymouth. Sorry they gave no name. They walk through it. Apparently this statue is the way to live. The Pilgrams/ forefathers left it here for us to keep learning from.

Sounds like the Monument to the Forefathers. I used to live nearby, and I can attest: everyone knows about this statue. It's not exactly hidden: it's on a hill on Allerton St. in Plymouth, on a huge plot of land, and it's as tall as an 8-story building. Plymouth is not large. It would be take a lot of effort to not know about this thing. Pretty sure it wasn't left here by the pilgrims, either: it's victorian. As for the way to live... What? It's a statue!

Wonder why he's obsessed with this one? There are loads of pilgrim monuments in New England. My favorite is in Provincetown (which is where the pilgrims actually landed first, so it makes more sense). It's huge, dramatic, and very cool, and built about the same era. Then again. P-town is extremely LBGT-friendly, so that might not work with this guy's agenda.

[homeschoolmomma1]

Sounds like the Monument to the Forefathers. I used to live nearby, and I can attest: everyone knows about this statue. It's not exactly hidden: it's on a hill on Allerton St. in Plymouth, on a huge plot of land, and it's as tall as an 8-story building. Plymouth is not large. It would be take a lot of effort to not know about this thing. Pretty sure it wasn't left here by the pilgrims, either: it's victorian. As for the way to live... What? It's a statue!

Wonder why he's obsessed with this one? There are loads of pilgrim monuments in New England. My favorite is in Provincetown (which is where the pilgrims actually landed first, so it makes more sense). It's huge, dramatic, and very cool, and built about the same era. Then again. P-town is extremely LBGT-friendly, so that might not work with this guy's agenda.

I think he liked it because it says faith on it. I actually don't know.

Someone please watch this movie lol. I want to discuss it

[Sola]

Well like the way the pilgrims came to America. First they were waiting for a ship, but the captain was double dealing so they threw everyone in jail. They got out then went to Holland then back to England. Got on Mayflower to America. Then Kirk said that the Pilgrims were not all bad and did not have issues with the Indians like he was taught in school. Yes there were some that did, but the Pilgrims came with their families so I guess when you take a family you don't hurt the Indians?

This is really bad way of describing. He was so concerned the children had to work. Honestly, there were no child labor laws till the 1900s. Doesn't Kirk know this? I do defend that God was placed in a lot of early documents and on our money etc. However, that is how people were. God was their life. It was how they lived. If don't know how to explain it. They knew nothing else I guess.

I am a Christian and yes I feel like America needs to take a stop back, but what Kirk wants is a theocracy and that is what this movie is driving toward. They are now looking at some statue paid for by congress that took 70 years and no one knows of this statue in Plymouth. Sorry they gave no name. They walk through it. Apparently this statue is the way to live. The Pilgrams/ forefathers left it here for us to keep learning from.

Here is a radio interview with Kirk explaining it. I did not listen to it, but he does explain it

Sorry I have a cold debrand and even I don't make sense lol

I had no idea this is what Monumental was about. However, funnily enough, today I finished reading "Mayflower": A Voyage to War by Nathaniel Philbrick (totally recommend the book btw).

From the book I can tell you that the Puritans were in Leiden and they bought a ship (not the Mayflower) and contracted a captain. The captain conned them by having the ship refitted with masts far too large for the ship. The ship sprung leaks and had to land in England where everybody ended up waiting for weeks to go on the Mayflower. IIRC, one person was in Jail, one of the Puritans, not all of them.

Once landed at Plymouth Rock it was winter, freezing, they had little food and supplies. They made friends of the Indians who helped them through that first winter. As time went on that relationship went tits up and eventually one of the sons of that Indian chief who made friends with them, managed to unite many of the tribes (not all, some were allied to the English) and declared war.

As for the early settlements in New England, they weren't a theocracy at all. The Puritans recognised that for their settlements to survive they needed to be inclusive. Not all the settlements around there were Puritan/Separatist so they could not impose their lifestyle on all other settlements without alienating those they depended upon.

Kirk ought to do a little more research.

[debrand]

Cameron is a Calvinist like the Puritans.

Did Cameron discuss the Quakers or Lord Baltimore who enacted the Maryland Toleration Act?

From A History of The American People, a book that is overal postive about America:

Upon being told that the Native Americans within a range of 300 miles had been wiped out by small pox, John Winthrop rejoiced and wrote, "So God hath hereby cleared our title to this place."

Philip Radcliffe was whipped and had both his ears cut off for "Most foul, scandalous invectives against our church and government."

Mary Dyer's stillborn baby was dug up to determine if it was a monster. John Winthrop was angry that she and Ann Hutchinson spoke against Puritanism.

Quakers could be whipped through the streets. Three Quakers, William Robinson, Marmaduke Stevenson and Mary Dyer were arrrested and sentenced to be hanged. The men were hanged. At the last minute, blindfolded and the noose around her neck, Dyer's son managed to save her by promising that she would leave the colony.

Nathan Ward wrote, "I dare take it upon me to be the herald of New England so far as to proclaim the world, in the name of our colony, that all Familists, Antinomians, Anabaptists and other enthusiasts shall have free liberty to keep away from us"

Here is an article on Purtan views toward the Native Americans. It lines up with what I've read in other sources

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psy ... uritan.htm

The Puritans viewed themselves as God's special people, replacing national Israel. Nowhere do the dangers of this assumption become more clear than in the Puritans' treatment of the native Americans. Since the Puritans considered themselves God's chosen people, they concluded that they had the right to take the land from the heathen Indians. The American Indians were the "new Canaanites" in America's "Promised Land." The fruit of Puritan theology was brutal. They saw their mission as convert these "Canaanites" to Christianity; failing that, it was acceptable to slaughter them in the name of Christ.

For example, the Puritan massacres of the Pequot Indian tribe on May 26, 1637, and again on July 14, 1637, were deemed by the Puritans to be directed by God -- Captain John Mason declared, "God laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven ... Thus did the Lord judge among the Heathen, filling the Place with dead Bodies" (Segal and Stinenback, Puritans, Indians, and Manifest Destiny, pp. 111-112, 134-135). Converting the pagans for God was acceptable to the Puritans, but killing the pagans for the Lord was also acceptable!

Defenders of the Puritans claim that it was the hostility of the Pequots that led to their unfortunate demise. But the Pequots were one of the most tranquil tribes in New England. History reveals that their "hostility" did not manifest itself until they were hunted like animals. For argument sake, let's say that the Pequots were the instigators of hostilities, virtual savages if you will (which they were not). Does this justify hunting them down, slaughtering the men, women, and children in their sleep, and then doing it again six weeks later to finish the job!? (Not exactly "battlefield" victories!) Moreover, the Puritans claimed it was in obedience to God that these pagans were slaughtered!

Here the reasoning of the Puritans defies logic and a sense of common decency, let alone Christian principles. Captain John Underhill also wrote of the Pequot slaughter: "Sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents ... We have sufficient light from the Word of God for our proceedings." What an incredible testimony for one claiming to be a Christian!

[JenniferJuniper]

P-town is extremely LBGT-friendly, so that might not work with this guy's agenda.

Having spent two great summers working there in my college days, I'd say P-town is actually LBGT oriented but straight-friendly.

We make it a point every year to take the kids on the ferry from Plymouth to P-town. The ferry operators do a great job of explaining the history between the two towns, and because you're on a boat, it makes it way more interesting for the kids than looking at monuments or at some rock at the bottom of a hole (the locals call it Plymouth Pebble).

As for Kirk, he's a lying tool and I wouldn't waste 5 minutes of my life watching any movie he was involved with.