Saw this, thought of modesty

[AnnieC 305]

Found it in Facebook this morning

So all these Fundie men who get all up in arms about modesty are basically telling us that their default state really is rapist and we shouldn't trust them or their system.

Got it. Good to know. Thanks for the warning.

((Feel free to move this if it's in the wrong place))

[Deleted07]

THAT IS AWESOME!!!

I'm facebooking the heck outta that photo! :-D

[BravaAmica]

I've been trying to say that for years but not nearly so well. Totally, 100% agree with the photo!

[lizziesmom]

Very cool. Thank you for posting.

[deelaem]

Not sure what I think of this. It sorta smacks of "what about the men" ism. I agree that women should be able to dress however they like and not be at risk of assault. Rape is obviously never the woman's fault. But I just don't know about the "men should be offended" part of it. What men really should be feeling is horror at the high percentage of them that really do feel that a woman's dress signals her sexual availability. Rather than being offended, they should take some time for introspection and analysis of how this came to be, and realize the role of male personal responsibility in it.

I get the sentiment behind this, and it's a good one, I guess I'm just having a problem with the wording.

[sparkles]

This is freaking brilliant.

I've always been astounded by the fundie logic that says that women must be responsible for keeping men's baser instincts in check, yet these women must then hand over responsibility and control for everything else in their lives to the very men who apparently can't even control themselves. Go figure...

[Olive Plant]

I'm sure we had a thread about this awhile back, but according to Doug Wilson, men's natural state IS rapist. That's why men like patriarchy!

[Minerva]

I saw this on Facebook earlier this week. I like it, it's an excellent takedown of beliefs people hold without ever examining them, and it doesn't leave room for defending those beliefs based on more victim blaming, because it points out something morally unacceptable about society's beliefs regarding the perpetrator. That said, it's disgusting that people are more eager to stop thinking of men as natural rapists than they are to stop thinking of women* as asking for it.

*sexual assault survivors of any gender, really, though women "ask for it" more often and more easily, by society's standards.

[ADoyle90815]

Another thing I saw on Facebook was this account of a woman whose only "crime" was to commute by rail and subway system. Warning for any possible triggers.

unwinona.tumblr.com/post/30861660109/i-debated-whether-or-not-to-share-this-story

[desertvixen]

I've always been astounded by the fundie logic that says that women must be responsible for keeping men's baser instincts in check, yet these women must then hand over responsibility and control for everything else in their lives to the very men who apparently can't even control themselves. Go figure...

This, this, this.

Plus, I can't comprehend how my expectation that men act like adults (i.e., control themselves, take responsibility for their actions) somehow translates into me (as a feminist) hating them... when it seems like the fundie women who believe that we have to do all these things to protect the poor little men are the ones who hate them.

[Shina]

Just reposted this on Facebook and within 15 minutes the "it's not fair but life's not fair and you have to be realistic" trolls came out of the woodwork. Oh goodie, I love how annoyed feminism makes people.

[bluestockings]

Not sure what I think of this. It sorta smacks of "what about the men" ism. I agree that women should be able to dress however they like and not be at risk of assault. Rape is obviously never the woman's fault. But I just don't know about the "men should be offended" part of it. What men really should be feeling is horror at the high percentage of them that really do feel that a woman's dress signals her sexual availability. Rather than being offended, they should take some time for introspection and analysis of how this came to be, and realize the role of male personal responsibility in it.

I get the sentiment behind this, and it's a good one, I guess I'm just having a problem with the wording.

Agreed. I get the sentiment, but if your only incentive not to slut-shame is that it reflects poorly on you as a man, you still aren't respecting women.

[desertvixen]

Just reposted this on Facebook and within 15 minutes the "it's not fair but life's not fair and you have to be realistic" trolls came out of the woodwork. Oh goodie, I love how annoyed feminism makes people.

But if we're "realistic", then we think all men are (potential) rapists. And I thought they didn't like that either!

[caito]

I really like that. It grosses me out to think that some men really think that this is the way the world works.

[Shina]

I swear, arguing with rape culture is like banging my head on a wall.

It all comes back to the "it can't happen here" mentality. The variations seem to be: "I won't go in dark alleys or wear miniskirts and no one will rape me" and "Only evil criminals are rapists. And then jump out of the bushes and grab those slutty miniskirt wearing women."

It's like if they keep repeating, "It can't happen to me" then the scary scary idea of rape can stay in a safe little box far away from their precious feelings.

[bananacat]

You know what? No matter what I wear, how much I drink, or how many guys I've had sex with, nobody is allowed to rape me. It's that simple. That's being realistic.

[Alecto]

My SO and I had a conversation last night about this, and I think I get it a bit more clearly. He and I were discussing how many good men just don't get the thought processes many women go through in situations such as constantly being on guard for the threat of violence. Now, my SO considers himself to be of the feminist mindset, so it really bothered him that this whole aspect of our society had been completely foreign to him.

I think the same applies to this kind of graphic/message. It's not meant for the guys who blame the victim. It's meant for guys who are oblivious to the whole ordeal. It's meant for generally good guys who are of feminist thought who might not be as in tune with rape culture, or just what the right is trying to say about women and men in our society.

[Shina]

And my fundie-light FB friends came out to throw Bible verses at me and talk about....MODESTY! Did actually engage with the conversation about, you know, rape? Nope!

Comments inserted for FJ's derision.

Realistic Dude:

I think it presumes that some men, not many, but stIll some are like this. It's not fair that women can't walk down a dark ally wearing a mini skirt. But life isn't fair, and criminals are evidence of this. Theres a fine line between idealism and realism--and this rant is going no where while it frantically dances on it

Shina:

I can see your point on it being a person's responsibility to protect themselves to a reasonable degree. However, victim-blaming too often masks an "it can't happen to me" mentality. I.E. I don't wear miniskirts and avoid dark alleys so I'm not at risk for assault.

RD:

I agree and I think it's important that women understand that it's never their fault. Sometimes shit happens even with all precautions taken into consideration. However, it doesn't matter whose right or whose wrong-- it's whose left. Taking precautions in life can only improve your chances. Twisting logical and effective advice at the expense of men helps nobody.

Shina:

How is this statement twisting anything at the expense of men? Could you clarify what you mean by that.

Also, being told not to wear a miniskirt is neither logical or effective advice. My clothes do not say "rape me."

Random Friend:

Only a certain type of man would think that they did

Shina:

which is of course the point. No rational person thinks clothing prevents or encourages rape.

The argument that women need to cover our bodies, lest men assault us/oogle us/are tempted is offensive to both men and women because it essentially supposes the men have no control or morals.

Ergo, this blurb expands upon such an idea.

RD:

Wear anything you want.

Go anywhere you want.

I don't have any moral standing against anybody doing anything ever, WITH the exception that it harms another human being.

Bad men do bad things, so why dilly dally in the territory while wearing a red flag? Is is so wrong to encourage situation awareness?

I understand that most rapes do not occur this way. In fact, most rapes are committed by someone that the victim knows and perhaps even trusts (family, friends). However, to discount simple logical advice and push it toward a single direction, is to me, both hasty and asinine.

But I digress. I don't know if you're trying to rub this in my face or not. It's only my intention to point out the elephant in the room with this blurb

Fundie Girl:

I think by dressing modestly girls show they have self respect and that they don't need to flaunt their bodies to get attention. The idea that I should cover my body is not offensive to me. Store owners don't put something on display that is not for sale.

I think girls flaunting themselves is selfish. They are saying that their desire for attention is more important then helping their brothers in Christ stay pure. I am not going to wear ankle length skirts and collar, but saying my right to wear skimpy clothes is more important than helping someone avoid temptation is wrong. Read 1 Cor 10:23-33. :)

RD:

Sorry to say Fundie Girl, but that only helped what the blurb is talking about. You SHOULD be able to wear what you want and that shouldn't affect any normal man. There is no excuse for rape.

It is not the victim's fault. Not fucking ever.

I just think it's important that women see the realism behind dealing with sick individuals.

Shina:

RD, I do appreciate your perspective and I don't disagree with your points. I'm not saying I'm going to dance naked in dark alleys. But the point is, if I did--it would still not. be. my. fault.

I am highly amused that Realistic Dude handslapped the fundie. Perhaps there is hope for him after all.

[luckystone]

Fundie Girl would be removed from my friends list stat.

I must have an ad blocker on or something, I can't see the original image!

[Buggaboo]

You know what? No matter what I wear, how much I drink, or how many guys I've had sex with, nobody is allowed to rape me. It's that simple. That's being realistic.

Amen.

[Buggaboo]

And also, I quit FB about 9 months ago, but I'm considering re-opening my account just to put that graphic up. :bow-yellow: And that's saying a lot, because I really hate FB and the drama it has caused me, in general. :roll:

[Shina]

Well Fundie Girl defriended me. Sweet, spring cleaning on Facebook and I didn't even have to break a sweat. :twisted:

[Common]

I think the quote in the image is very well said, it almost smacks the reader in the face with knowledge so well that it goes straight to the brain...of the common sense individual.

As far as how I think fundies would actually respond to it; I think they would reject it on the grounds that they believe modestly isn't to prevent rape (that's what staying at home and not going to college and on dates is for), but to prevent 'thoughts that cannot be righteously fulfilled'. And When you ask if they think a man’s natural state is a rapist 'adulterous', they would say "Yes".

You see, their bullshit is impenetrable.

[JaChelle Sugar]

Saw this image on one of my fb feminist pages and totally reposted. Got into a discussion of modesty, and one of my younger fundy-lite friends is agreeing with the sentiment but still he is all 'but girls should still be mindful of there brother's in Christ when choosing clothes'.

He is young and my first response is wanting to pat him on the head condescendingly and tell him I felt that way when I was his age and he'll grow out of it... but that's not a good debate tactic.