Cult or religion

[VintageJen1984]

I agree with all of this. If mainstream Mormons are part of the Christian religion as a whole and not a separate cult, then JWs certainly are imo. With regards to the disfellowshipping, to be honest a lot of religious denominations have this, for example Catholicism has excommunication but it doesn't make them a cult. Something like Scientology where your life may actually be in danger if you leave is cult-like to me.

Also JWs have definitely had their share of genuine persecution, much more so than the fundies who complain about it do. They were executed in WWII death camps for their refusal to take part in politics (JWs do not vote or get involved in any political activity, not just not running for office). Not that this excuses any bad behaviour by them, but I think people forget about how much they've had to fight for their religious freedom.

Excommunication in the Catholic church means exactly: ex communication. You are no longer allowed to take communion. You may attend church every week, you may hang with your Catholic friends and family, and if you repent of the horrible thing that got you excommunicated, (in most cases this only means taking the sacrament of reconciliation, other wise known as confession) it can be lifted.

Disfellowshipping in JW means you are shunned, you can't speak to your JW friends and family, and while you may come to church, no one can speak to you there. If you want to be un-disfellowshipped you must wait at least a year, and attend regularly (while everyone else there pretends you don't exist).

I'm not going to comment on the rest of your statement otherwise, but I have to point out that the two are not really the same.

[Patsy]

Disfellowshipping in JW means you are shunned, you can't speak to your JW friends and family, and while you may come to church, no one can speak to you there. If you want to be un-disfellowshipped you must wait at least a year, and attend regularly (while everyone else there pretends you don't exist).

I'll add that being an official member makes a massive difference. If you've heard of JWs who weren't kept strictly in line, who were able to interpret the religion as they like, or who left without having to never see any of their friends again, then they weren't official members. In my experience, every single "JW" who has had an experience like that has not been an official member, and as a result might tell you the church isn't so bad. Those who are official members, however, were dead to their entire families the second they didn't toe the line.

[Terrasola]

Thanks 2xx and delaem for drawing out my argument better than I was able to. It appears to me that, unless a religious group / organization is labelled as a cult, its teachings and behaviour are accepted without question by the majority of the population. At the very least people seem to adopt a live and let live attitude, even when certain teachings and behaviour have been proven harmful. Only when a religious group or organization is so extreme as to be labelled a cult does it then seem to be acceptable to critique that group's teachings and behaviour.

As an example, the RCC has been mentioned in this thread. Much has been written about their official positions on homosexuality and marriage equality, the position of women in the church/society and gender equality, and sexual abuse of children within the church. Yet it is still frowned upon in many circles to publicly criticize their views and practices; I believe this is, in part, because of its status as a respected religious organization. Would the RCC receive this same deference if it were openly labelled as a cult?

This may be why it is so important to look at whether religious groups such as the JWs (Watchtower Society) are cults. It shines a light on them, makes it socially acceptable for "polite society" to discuss and examine their teachings and activities and knocks this "live and let live" attitude on its head. I believe this to be very important because some of the teachings and actions of certain religious groups and organizations are very harmful and the general population does not understand this (case in point, the discussion on this thread concerning disfellowshipping). I experience this every day concerning religious polygamy and it makes me stabby.

I wish things were different but many of us are taught not to discuss (interpreted by many as "judge") the religion and politics of others. I am hopeful that a more enlightened society (as opposed to, say, the 1910s) will change this, but until then using the cult label may be one of the few tools available to initiate discussion on religious practices in "polite" society.

[deelaem]

Thanks 2xx and delaem for drawing out my argument better than I was able to. It appears to me that, unless a religious group / organization is labelled as a cult, its teachings and behaviour are accepted without question by the majority of the population. At the very least people seem to adopt a live and let live attitude, even when certain teachings and behaviour have been proven harmful. Only when a religious group or organization is so extreme as to be labelled a cult does it then seem to be acceptable to critique that group's teachings and behaviour.

As an example, the RCC has been mentioned in this thread. Much has been written about their official positions on homosexuality and marriage equality, the position of women in the church/society and gender equality, and sexual abuse of children within the church. Yet it is still frowned upon in many circles to publicly criticize their views and practices; I believe this is, in part, because of its status as a respected religious organization. Would the RCC receive this same deference if it were openly labelled as a cult?

This may be why it is so important to look at whether religious groups such as the JWs (Watchtower Society) are cults. It shines a light on them, makes it socially acceptable for "polite society" to discuss and examine their teachings and activities and knocks this "live and let live" attitude on its head. I believe this to be very important because some of the teachings and actions of certain religious groups and organizations are very harmful and the general population does not understand this (case in point, the discussion on this thread concerning disfellowshipping). I experience this every day concerning religious polygamy and it makes me stabby.

I wish things were different but many of us are taught not to discuss (interpreted by many as "judge") the religion and politics of others. I am hopeful that a more enlightened society (as opposed to, say, the 1910s) will change this, but until then using the cult label may be one of the few tools available to initiate discussion on religious practices in "polite" society.

:clap:

I'm curious about this. How does religious polygamy figure into your every day life, if you don't mind me asking?

[Terrasola]

I don't practice the Principle of plural marriage :lol: :lol: :lol: . Rather, I work a bit behind the scenes helping those who aid and assist women and children who've been harmed by religious polygamy. I play a very, very small part on the education side of things.

:angry-soapbox: I try to get the word out that religious polygamy is not at all benign, not an adult choice (polygamy or hell, what kind of choice is that) because indoctrination starts at birth, and that, as Canadian judge Justice Baumann has articulated so well, the practice of polygamy increases the likelihood of women and children experiencing economic, emotional, psychological and physical harm. It should never be live and let live when a child's whole life is at stake.

I can really understand how people who've grown up in the JW faith may really have been psychologically harmed by its social practices (e.g. disfellowshipping, denial of celebrating ... anything) and some of its beliefs (abstinence from blood and the tug of war that can ensue when a child is ill).

We owe it to the kids raised in these faiths, I suppose mine and all other faiths included, to ask openly whether they are helped or harmed by the beliefs and practices of these groups. Adults can choose, kids can't.

Edited to include my soapbox rant.

[bellicosebroad]

Any religion which tells a person how to think rather then expecting them to engage in critical thinking and evaluate it themselves, is a cult in my book.

That might be a broad brush to paint things with, as most religions will fall under that. But the way I see it unless you can make up your own mind, then it's a cult.

Add to that: "We're 'right,' 'blessed,' 'special,' or 'chosen.' Everyone else is wrong and must repent/convert to our way of thinking, be 'saved' in order to be truly worthy," etc. I know several liberal Christians who fully understand that while they believe in their God, others have every right not to without being "prayed for." They are an unfortunate rarity, IME, and most who are Christians are cult members whose most basic desire is to get everyone to believe as they do.

[deelaem]

I don't practice the Principle of plural marriage :lol: :lol: :lol: . Rather, I work a bit behind the scenes helping those who aid and assist women and children who've been harmed by religious polygamy. I play a very, very small part on the education side of things.

:angry-soapbox: I try to get the word out that religious polygamy is not at all benign, not an adult choice (polygamy or hell, what kind of choice is that) because indoctrination starts at birth, and that, as Canadian judge Justice Baumann has articulated so well, the practice of polygamy increases the likelihood of women and children experiencing economic, emotional, psychological and physical harm. It should never be live and let live when a child's whole life is at stake.

I can really understand how people who've grown up in the JW faith may really have been psychologically harmed by its social practices (e.g. disfellowshipping, denial of celebrating ... anything) and some of its beliefs (abstinence from blood and the tug of war that can ensue when a child is ill).

We owe it to the kids raised in these faiths, I suppose mine and all other faiths included, to ask openly whether they are helped or harmed by the beliefs and practices of these groups. Adults can choose, kids can't.

Edited to include my soapbox rant.

Wow! Congratulations on doing such important work. You'll be getting the special Jesus-made blueberry muffins in your muffin basket. ;)

Seriously though - well done!

[Katydid]

Any religion which tells a person how to think rather then expecting them to engage in critical thinking and evaluate it themselves, is a cult in my book.

This pretty much exactly.