Another SOTDRT fail for girls

[CrazySister]

I find it odd there are parenting books on there. I mean, I know we're talking about fundies and all, but I can only imagine what my friends' teenagers would think if they had to read a parenting book as part of their required reading. It's sad, too, because all these books just reinforce yet again that a woman's only value is her uterus.

[mnb357]

Yeah, Dacyczyn could really stretch the point sometimes. Definitely an entertaining read, though. :lol:

Dacyczyn is anything BUT submissive. Thank goodness those books are on that list...that may be the only glimpse into the life of a strong, independent and seccessful woman 's life those girls get. I have said before, I think Dacyczyn would find these fundies' treatment of women repugnant.

[YPestis]

Why do fundies seem to think men are owed respect due to the fact they were male? Shouldn't respect be earned, not seen as an entitlement? Shouldn't leaders lead by examples, not demand it from their followers? And yet these women seem to think it's their job to grovel at their husband's feet, to train their daughters to do the same for future husbands. If they are so big on sheltering and filtering out guys for their daughters, shouldn't they make sure the man is not is not a petulant child demanding respect due to their maleness? It boogles the mind that there are fundies who buy into such submissive nonsense. They go out of their way to baby the men-childs. If these fundie men withstand a wife who argues back, how do they expect to rise up and lead a nation filled with strong willed females?

[Chasingthedog]

I shudder to think what "Consequences of Ideas" might be about...

edited b/c I got the title wrong.

[2xx1xy1JD]

There are many a women out there who have no idea how to respect their husbands. They bitch and whine, nag and pout and berate / belittle their men and treat them like dogs. I see it all the time when I am out. They have no idea how to be a wife. A wife who knows how to love & respect their man. My mom was a divorced single woman. I had no idea what a wife was supposed to do when I got married. Before they divorced all I seen was her yelling and screaming at my dad. That's all I had to go on as a young bride of 19. The first few months of my marriage I put my husband through hell and treated him like a piece of sh!t because that's all I knew. Then I became a Christian and slowly began learning how to be a helpmeet to my husband and learning how to respect him and yet not lose my own identity (as many women do). Many of the books listed did help with that. Since not all husbands are the same, I took what I needed & left the rest.

May I introduce you to a logical fallacy by the name of False Dichotomy?

It goes like this:

You experience something that you consider bad. You are then introduced to something very different, which may at first seem better than the bad thing. You start to see the new thing as good, even if it is actually just different-and-not-as-bad-as-the-first-thing. You may start to see things in a very black-and-white way, associating your particular bad experiences with the wider world, and then seeing a stark choice between that and the new thing. There are options other than screaming feminist shrew and submissive Christian helpmeet.

In reality, you don't have to read a zillion books on how to be a helpmeet. You just need to treat your spouse with love and respect. Period. That could mean consciously challenging old patterns, and thinking "am I acting in a way that shows that I love and respect my partner?" and "would I want to be treated this way?" before you do anything. It's a principle that is equally applicable to men and women. It's not unique to Christianity.

[eeemkaaayy]

There are many a women out there who have no idea how to respect their husbands. They bitch and whine, nag and pout and berate / belittle their men and treat them like dogs. I see it all the time when I am out. They have no idea how to be a wife. A wife who knows how to love & respect their man. My mom was a divorced single woman. I had no idea what a wife was supposed to do when I got married. Before they divorced all I seen was her yelling and screaming at my dad. That's all I had to go on as a young bride of 19. The first few months of my marriage I put my husband through hell and treated him like a piece of sh!t because that's all I knew. Then I became a Christian and slowly began learning how to be a helpmeet to my husband and learning how to respect him and yet not lose my own identity (as many women do). Many of the books listed did help with that. Since not all husbands are the same, I took what I needed & left the rest.

For the love of FSM, tell me you're being sarcastic. That's biggest load of bullshit I've heard.

[Koala]

There are many a women out there who have no idea how to respect their husbands. They bitch and whine, nag and pout and berate / belittle their men and treat them like dogs. I see it all the time when I am out. They have no idea how to be a wife. A wife who knows how to love & respect their man. My mom was a divorced single woman. I had no idea what a wife was supposed to do when I got married. Before they divorced all I seen was her yelling and screaming at my dad. That's all I had to go on as a young bride of 19. The first few months of my marriage I put my husband through hell and treated him like a piece of sh!t because that's all I knew. Then I became a Christian and slowly began learning how to be a helpmeet to my husband and learning how to respect him and yet not lose my own identity (as many women do). Many of the books listed did help with that. Since not all husbands are the same, I took what I needed & left the rest.

So the fundies just come wherever the hell they want now? What happened to "Fundie Friday"??????

If you insist on staying, I'd like for you to address the quote from your blog about not being a feminist.

[lilah]

I suppose fundies are free to post here if they like but don't be supirsed if we rip your argument to shreds.

Maggie whether you think those books are helpful or not, I think that the education of young minds needs to be so much more than submissive marriage and abusive child-rearing.

A 16 and 17 year old should be exposed to complex texts and begin to start doing critical readings so they understand both the story and the literary devices used to convey that story. I doubt any of those christain help books are written at a 10th/11th grade level.

[Deleted07]

muggles flounced I wonder?

[eeemkaaayy]

I suppose fundies are free to post here if they like but don't be supirsed if we rip your argument to shreds.

Maggie whether you think those books are helpful or not, I think that the education of young minds needs to be so much more than submissive marriage and abusive child-rearing.

A 16 and 17 year old should be exposed to complex texts and begin to start doing critical readings so they understand both the story and the literary devices used to convey that story. I doubt any of those christain help books are written at a 10th/11th grade level.

This! So much. I'm her daughter's age and we're currently analyzing poetry to death. The year before, it was analyzing and critiquing arguments. By freshmen year, every single person in my grade, no matter what English class they took, had read To Kill A Mockingbird, Oliver Twist, 1984, at least one Shakespeare work, and another play on top of that sometime between 6th grade and the end of 9th grade, with other books depending on your English class. My sister probably has a higher understanding of literature than Bambi's daughters. Bambi is not doing her daughters any favors. What if they go to college? Not Crown College, but a true college. These kids will be so behind it will be unbelievable. I'm all for teaching life skills, but in today's world, you need more than that. What if her daughters has to work at some point? You need to have more skills than knowing how to be a good mother and wife. Education is very, very important in today's society. Which brings me to my next question: if this is the 'English' portion, what on earth is the rest of her education like? Just the basics? A little more than that? If these girls have to get a real job, it's going to be quite the shock. Bambi's hindering her daughters and their potential.

Oh gross, the only real literature I could find with a quick search was the Elise Dinsmore series. I hated that series; all about being submissive and letting your father/husband make all the choices and not thinking at all. Apparently everything has to be saturated with being a good, submissive daughter/wife :roll:

[Sweetpea1]

muggles flounced I wonder?

FTW

[MamaJunebug]

I have most of those on my book shelf right now. I bought them years ago when I was trying to be the perfect, submissive, Titus 2 keeper at home, etc, etc. Thing is, I never got around to reading them. I'm still not sure if I should sell them or give them away, or just read them already. But I need to finish Harry Potter first. 8-)

The conservative Mennonites have books like this out too, from an Anabaptist prospective. They can be ordered online. Got a few of those on my shelf that I haven't read either.

These books may be good and all for the girl to read, she can take what she wants and throw out the rest, but they won't be of much help out on the real world....

Any chance you could box them up and ship them to me? I'm in a debunking mood. I'd gladly reimburse you the bulk-rate postage and a few bucks for the packing material and trouble.

As for your later assertion that you "see women mistreating their men all the time" (my paraphrase), in the most polite way possible, I say, "You're seeing what you want to see." When I started investigating the patriachal movement in the mid-2000s, this was a chorus from the so-called leaders of any number of wives' discussion groups.

I see that so incredibly rarely that I can't tell you the last time. My acquaintances range from atheists to ethical culturists to liberal religious to conservative religious and I cannot think of one couple, of any age, in which the husband is disrespected, belittled, mistreated.

For that matter, the same goes for the wives. Those books address a problem that doesnt exist, but they do a great job at attempting to create a problem and an insidious "solution." There, how's that for a generalization? I stand by it.

[Talitha Cumi]

As for your later assertion that you "see women mistreating their men all the time" (my paraphrase), in the most polite way possible, I say, "You're seeing what you want to see." When I started investigating the patriachal movement in the mid-2000s, this was a chorus from the so-called leaders of any number of wives' discussion groups.

I see that so incredibly rarely that I can't tell you the last time. My acquaintances range from atheists to ethical culturists to liberal religious to conservative religious and I cannot think of one couple, of any age, in which the husband is disrespected, belittled, mistreated.

For that matter, the same goes for the wives. Those books address a problem that doesnt exist, but they do a great job at attempting to create a problem and an insidious "solution." There, how's that for a generalization? I stand by it.

:clap:

Back to the book thing, I found "Babywise" on a discount shelf at the used bookstore. I bought it for $1, so no one else would think "hey, let me read this book on how to damage my infant!" I want to burn it, but I'm a librarian, and the thought makes me cringe, even though it deserves it.

It's currently on my shelf. What should I do?

[MonkeyMomma]

Back to the book thing, I found "Babywise" on a discount shelf at the used bookstore. I bought it for $1, so no one else would think "hey, let me read this book on how to damage my infant!" I want to burn it, but I'm a librarian, and the thought makes me cringe, even though it deserves it.

It's currently on my shelf. What should I do?

Honestly? If you want to send it to me, PM me. I'd take it off your hands. I've never actually read the blasted thing, but I've read enough about it to freak me out. As a La Leche League Leader and childbirth educator, I get asked about it from time to time, and it might be better for me to have read it than do my usual, "OMFG RUN! RUN FROM THE BABYWISE!" ;)

[MonkeyMomma]

There are many a women out there who have no idea how to respect their husbands. They bitch and whine, nag and pout and berate / belittle their men and treat them like dogs. I see it all the time when I am out. They have no idea how to be a wife. A wife who knows how to love & respect their man. My mom was a divorced single woman. I had no idea what a wife was supposed to do when I got married. Before they divorced all I seen was her yelling and screaming at my dad. That's all I had to go on as a young bride of 19. The first few months of my marriage I put my husband through hell and treated him like a piece of sh!t because that's all I knew. Then I became a Christian and slowly began learning how to be a helpmeet to my husband and learning how to respect him and yet not lose my own identity (as many women do). Many of the books listed did help with that. Since not all husbands are the same, I took what I needed & left the rest.

:lol:

.. Oh, you're serious. Well, that's awkward.

[thoughtful]

Back to the book thing, I found "Babywise" on a discount shelf at the used bookstore. I bought it for $1, so no one else would think "hey, let me read this book on how to damage my infant!" I want to burn it, but I'm a librarian, and the thought makes me cringe, even though it deserves it.

It's currently on my shelf. What should I do?

I look for Babywise and other odious "parenting" books, and animal training books that recommend pain, whenever I go to thrift stores.

I tear them up and put them in the recycling.

Think of it this way -- the only difference between this and junk mail, or yesterday's newspaper, is that it's bound. Physically being "a book" doesn't make it sacred. It's just paper with nasty, outdated, dangerous words on it.

It will become pulp, then be reused for something practical. Think of the Duggars eating off of paper plates made from it! :D

Go for it!

[Guest Anonymous]

This! So much. I'm her daughter's age and we're currently analyzing poetry to death.

Wait, how old are you? Her daughters are almost 16 and 17.

[Sweetpea1]

I look for Babywise and other odious "parenting" books, and animal training books that recommend pain, whenever I go to thrift stores.

I tear them up and put them in the recycling.

Think of it this way -- the only difference between this and junk mail, or yesterday's newspaper, is that it's bound. Physically being "a book" doesn't make it sacred. It's just paper with nasty, outdated, dangerous words on it.

It will become pulp, then be reused for something practical. Think of the Duggars eating off of paper plates made from it! :D

Go for it!

That mental image made my day.

[thoughtful]

That mental image made my day.

Glad you liked it -- I find it does make the boring task of tearing up a bunch of paper much more fun. :D

[fakepigtails73]

"Consequences of Ideas"??

What the heck is that book?? Creepy. :?

[Boltingmadonna]

Wow, MagicalMuggle, I love how you put your opinions in boldface. Plus the inappropriate smilies! Nothing like an inappropriate smiley to make me want to have sweet fellowship with you! Not. ;) Smilies are for when you've actually said something that was intended to be humorous, or when you want to indicate a spirit of playful affection. Used the way you do, it's like waving a big sign that says "Hello, I'm passive-aggressive!" :D

You know, I sort of understand what you're saying about not knowing how to have an appropriate marriage relationship because your parents didn't have one. I've been there. These books are not going to help you. They're a trap. They promise that if you follow the fundie rules, you will have a good marriage. That's really not true. Marriage isn't some kind of program. Women are not meant to be the inferior subordinates. Marriage is a relationship between two equal human beings. I recommend you throw out all that crap and get some books about having appropriate boundaries, avoiding co-dependency, and being appropriately assertive. Probably with your history--to say nothing of your husband's, which you didn't mention--you would benefit by therapy, perhaps couples counseling. And I don't mean some crappy "Christian" counseling. And for the love of GOD, woman, get this therapy and become a mature human being before you start bringing babies into this mess. You deserve a better life than the claustrophobic world of those books--and so do your daughters. Be a mensch!

[Guest Anonymous]

"Consequences of Ideas"??

What the heck is that book?? Creepy. :?

[CynicMom]

Even if you had a full time job raising your parents kids and took a really long time with each book that list wouldn't take longer than a year. Then what? No more books?

[emmiedahl]

There are many a women out there who have no idea how to respect their husbands. They bitch and whine, nag and pout and berate / belittle their men and treat them like dogs. I see it all the time when I am out. They have no idea how to be a wife. A wife who knows how to love & respect their man. My mom was a divorced single woman. I had no idea what a wife was supposed to do when I got married. Before they divorced all I seen was her yelling and screaming at my dad. That's all I had to go on as a young bride of 19. The first few months of my marriage I put my husband through hell and treated him like a piece of sh!t because that's all I knew. Then I became a Christian and slowly began learning how to be a helpmeet to my husband and learning how to respect him and yet not lose my own identity (as many women do). Many of the books listed did help with that. Since not all husbands are the same, I took what I needed & left the rest.

Either you run with a pack of world class assholes or you are lying. I have been all over the country and only rarely seen this behavior. Hell, I see more bad behavior from men to be honest--although I am sure you think that is the wife's fault as well.

What I am reading here is that you are a bitch and a terrible person, and you need rigid rules or you shit all over everyone in your life. Guess what? The vast majority of humankind is not like you. And it is not a gender dependent trait, either.

I am not a helpmeet to my husband unless you are using the real term that is used in Genesis and not your religion's dishonest mistranslation. The "help" comes from a word for helper or partner that is only used elsewhere in the Bible to refer to God, so it is not an expression of a submissive person in any way. "Meet" is the Old English word for "worthy" or "equal". So that phrase is calling the woman a worthy and equal partner.

It's fine if you want to steal my holy books, especially so because I cannot stop you. But please do not change the meaning to justify your perverse S&M games. If God had meant to say submissive subordinate instead of equal partner, He would have said that.

[Burris]

Joyfully at Home by Jasmine Baucham

Well, at least Jasmine Baucham is capable of stringing a sentence together – even if she is a bit verbose. JB gave up her blog, where people would read this stuff for free, and monetized her advice (just like so many other fundies have done). That, to me, is a big red flag.

Family Daughter by Sarah Bryant (this is one of my favorites! We have read this aloud together before.)

I've never read this. Every time I see the title, however, it sets my teeth on edge. A “Family Daughter� Is that anything like being the family pet? It's as if the girl or woman belongs to her family rather than to herself.

My Heart in His Hands by Sharon James

This one appears to be the biography of a female missionary. The author, Sharon James, is also a speaker (surprise!). Funny how that works: Women can be speakers and authors and globe-trotters with cropped hair and companies of their own just as long as they are oppressing other women.

Beauty of Modesty

This book was written by David and Diane Vaughan. David Vaughan is a preacher of some sort, and the book focuses almost entirely on women – and not merely on how they dress but on comportment as well.

When You Rise Up by R.C. Sproul Jr.

Ah yes; defrocked and he can still push the merch. Like I said before, fundies demand nothing of their art – not even integrity in the artists.

Lies Women Believe by Nancy Leigh DeMoss

I've dealt with this hypocritical horseshit before. More than once. She is so shameless.

Woman After God’s Own Heart by Elizabeth George

This book wasn't bad, for the most part. I actually liked it until I discovered the following: (a) I checked out George's website, which is absolutely nothing but a sales outlet. No articles. No e-mail exchanges with customers. Nothing. (b) I learned that she had written 60 – six-zero – non-fiction books; a rate so high that she employs a ghost writer, neglects her family, or recycles material to run up her sales – all three of these things are bad, and I can think of no other explanation for her productivity. © I decided to give her writing two more chances by purchasing two additional books, both of which sucked. One of them was overtly condescending towards the disabled. I dropped George a note through her sales site about a year ago. Not surprisingly, I heard nothing back.

The Hospitality Commands by Alexander Strauch

Strauch doesn't just defend hospitality for its own sake, but as a means of evangelism (as discussed in the Amazon.com description). In other words, his efforts to help people and make them feel welcome are merely the gateway to a gimmicky effort to sell his religion.

Tightwad Gazette books by Amy Dacyczyn

I don't see any real problem with this.

Homemaking by J.R. Miller

This is actually a good book – although an edited version is better. It's also available online for FREE, so I hope those with an interest in it decide to keep their money.

Equal Yet Different by Alexander Strauch

Separate but equal? Never works.

Attitudes of a Transformed Heart by Martha Peace

Check out this woman's website for a snark goldmine.

Gee, it's so heartening to see parents feeding their kids a steady diet of crap like this. Beautiful girlhood? I've read it. It's geared toward girls growing up in the 19th Century middle class. Few others on the planet could ever benefit by that idealized crud.