Anna T's tireless fight against exhausation

[YPestis]

Anna T posted about her horrible, exhausting university days when she suffered so much from the hectic days of a nutrition major here:

ccostello.blogspot.com/2012/09/a-day-in-my-life.html

She then notes how lovely and simple her days are now, filled with child care, animal feeding, cooking and lounging around with friends. I find it baffling she finds her schedule so horrible. Yes, her one hour commute sucks, and once a week when she has class until 7pm does make for a long day, but I fail to understand what makes her university so much worse than her daily activities now? She has classes between 8-4pm with a lunch period AND a two hour break after which she has a once a week two hour evening lecture. She could study, do homework or nap during that two hour gap, and still make it home most days before six. I fail to see how this is such a horrendous schedule, even with the commute. She doesn't even mention a need to do homework once she gets home so....? Compared to what I went through as an engineering major, she had it pretty good, and I thought college was one of the best times of my life!

I guess the difference is now there's no absolute demand on her time except when her kids need her, and she can slowly ease into what she wants to do. I want to know what kind of deluded person thinks this is how people used to live (aka 19the century homesteaders) or how society can function if everyone decided to do whatever they want when they want, with a two hour nap in the afternoon? Even her husband (I bet) has to be on time for his job, with expectations to turn in items by certain deadlines. Would she be happy if her female OB-GYN decided to see Anna when she wants to and between her children's potty training sessions? Would Anna be ok with the delivery men driving to transport needed items to the middle-of-nowhere she lives in when it suits him?

There's a few things that baffles me about Anna T:

1. Why does she find her schedule so exhausting in college? No offense to any nutrition majors out there, but there are a heck of a lot more stressful things out there that people do than that (soldier, firefighter, brain surgeon). I had a busier schedule than her in college and I never felt like collapsing from exhaustion likes she claims to.

2. Why does Anna T think society is better run when people just ease into whatever they want to do throughout the day, with ample time for naps in the middle of the day? Does she appreciate that her grocer opens and closes on time or her doctor keeps her appt?

3. Why does Anna T think it's normal that people in the past who led the "simple life" had a life of ease that she describes? Somehow, I don't think Ma Ingalls spent her afternoons doing her personal projects and participating in leisurely walks. Between the butter churning and washing days, she had a fuller schedule than any 80hr a week surgical resident.

I'm not sure what's more infuriating, that Anna T, who is all about living the life of a traditional homesteader yet takes advantage of all that modern technology provides for her (indoor plumbing, birth control, washing machine) that allows her this leisurely life, or that she wonders why not all women don't live like her. Maybe because society needs to operate with women who are nurses, teachers and social workers? Or volunteers at local community centers and schools?

On a parting note, I think it's interesting that Anna is considering unschooling. I wonder if she's attracted to it because she thinks it means less effort on her part as a teacher (aka more naps!!). Does anyone think Anna T will be unpleasantly surprised when she realizes that homeschooling kids is a lot of work? How long do people think she'll hang on before she decides to send her kids to school because homeschooling is so, so exhausting?

[skankbiscuit]

I think these people want to live like the upper class people in "the olden days" - spending your days doing what you want and catching up with your crafts and napping was not what most people were doing turn of the century. They were working their asses off, they died young, and their lives were miserable and filled with back breaking labor.

I don't remember who said this at FJ - but someone suggested that these idiots who want to go back to the good ol days give up their cars, washing machines, nice clothes, immunizations, etc.

[marmalade]

Actually, nutrition/dietitian majors have to take every pre-req as a pre-med student, so with labs and whatnot, it's not exactly a cakewalk. Then again, it depends on her university; I'm basing this on my alma mater. It has a dietetics major (nutritionist and registered dietitian are the same thing). A lot of people are out there claiming to be "nutrionists" without the extensive science training or the 1000 hours of internship required to become a RD.

Who knows what the requirements were at her college/university, or what degree she received, if any?

FWIW, I knew I wouldn't be able to hack it due to the math (statistics was plenty, thank you very much), so I changed my major and completed a minor instead. It was the right decision for me, leading me to grad school, beginning on the 11th. :mrgreen:

Sorry Anna, you lose. I was also never cut out to be a housewife. Not every woman is domestic; I do not sew, craft or do any of that "ladylike" stuff (including the balls) the VF crowd thinks all women in history did in their considerable downtime - because they had maids cooking and cleaning for them. :roll:

[skankbiscuit]

I am wondering if her "nutrition" major was some kind of home ec type major with an emphasis on nutrition. If she was going the RD route, yeah that isn't a cakewalk, but why on earth would she expect college to be easy? It is called "higher ed" for a reason, most of the time people are both working and going to school.

Hell yeah, it's tiring at times, but that is LIFE. College isn't supposed to be easy!

[VintageJen1984]

A couple of things to note, but I am too tired to note them. Something about this being antithetical to capitalism, the fundie favorite pet topic, but coming up with antithetical about did me in. I'd love to stay home, because I do have problems with exhaustion, stemming from some very serious undiagnosed issues that I can't afford to diagnose without insurance, and some lifestyle issues that aren't helping either (no matter how much I try, I just don't sleep enough, 'benefits' of working graveyard shift). That being said, if I had children to raise, once they are walking I can't imagine how they could possibly be less exhausting than anything else?

[YPestis]

I think Anna T have always painted her life pre-marriage as this horrible experience she was forced to endure. Regardless of whether it is actually more exhausting to care for young kids or to be a college student, she seems to think since it's a women's place to be at home, women will always find it horrible to go to college or work than to stay home and do what God planned for her.

FWIW, I was also premed in college and an engineering major. Even if her nutrition pre-reqs is equivalent to premed pre-reqs, it's hardly as exhausting as she claims. So what she had to take evening classes or have late night labs? It's not the end of the world to do that. I still managed to have fun and had some of the best times in college. Plus, however tough her school may have been, I doubt it's any worse than many "normal" jobs out there. Maybe Anna T really do need to get herself checked out, given how she seems so utterly exhausted by everything.

[rock_girl]

I think these people want to live like the upper class people in "the olden days" - spending your days doing what you want and catching up with your crafts and napping was not what most people were doing turn of the century. They were working their asses off, they died young, and their lives were miserable and filled with back breaking labor.

I used to follow a few Aus libertarian blogs because they were absolutely hilarious. One blogger had a government funded education in a pretty useless discipline and worked at a public university. It's hard to say why he was trying to turn this country into a libertarian paradise but it was sure fun reading his twisted logic. What really stuck out (and made the blogs so readable) was the collective belief of these bloggers and their fans that come the revolution they'd be at the top of the heap. To misquote David Sedaris, someone else would be doing the washing up. Fundies are similar. They may have a few repro teacups and use outdated phrasing while rallying against the horrors of feminism and the evil welfare state, but if they really were reliant on community charity and what they could cobble together from their patch of dirt for survival, it would be a pretty horrible sort of life. They'd be the ruddy-cheeked scrubbing girls with rough hands and prematurely lined foreheads. No crafting, no time to spend with the children, just a wretched existence of manual labour, subsistence agriculture, and child after child dead before five because hey, turns out vaccines actually serve a purpose.

[Guest Anonymous]

I followed Anna when she was in college. She always had plenty of time to take naps and take "modest" photos of herself back then too. It wasn't a full university course, but a specific one in nutrition. That was the compromise she struck with her mother, who was worried about her and wanted her to get an education, while Anna was content to be a sah leech and bake cakes between naps. She got into trouble once with her tutors who told her off for her attitude, and she wrote a blog post about them being worn-out feminists who didn't understand their true calling to be at home.

My guess is that Anna probably has an undiagnosed something that causes extreme low-energy, coupled with a severe long-term case of entitlementitis.

[2xx1xy1JD]

My guess is that Anna probably has an undiagnosed something that causes extreme low-energy, coupled with a severe long-term case of entitlementitis.

This. It's pretty clear that she doesn't have the energy to have more kids now, and she's been relatively open about it on her blog. Her decision to limit family size for now did make her slightly less knee-jerk fundie.

Since she wasn't diagnosed while she was growing up, she seems to have blamed feminism for the fact that her mother had to work (as a single mother) and the fact that she couldn't simply sit at home. If she had anemia or vitamin B12 deficiency or low thyroid functioning, for example, daily living may have seemed overwhelming and she may not have realized that other people don't feel the same way.

[luckystone]

I think Anna T have always painted her life pre-marriage as this horrible experience she was forced to endure. Regardless of whether it is actually more exhausting to care for young kids or to be a college student, she seems to think since it's a women's place to be at home, women will always find it horrible to go to college or work than to stay home and do what God planned for her.

Exactly. it's probably bias. I think kids would be more exhausting, but whatever.

To the OP's points though

1) Exhaustion is relative. I get really tired if I have a full day of work and/or and then it's a struggle to do anything once I get home. This is compounded when I have far to travel. That's great if you could manage everything and still be full of energy after 12 hours of classes, but some of us just aren't like that. (I am actually seeing a doctor to see if my fatigue levels are normal because things seem to be worsening and I have had hypothyroidism in the past, but things seem normal this time around so it might just be me.) If someone is knackered, telling them there are busier people is pretty pointless one upmanship and doesn't help anyone.

2) I actually think society would work a lot better if we had different working hours and naps. They have done studies showing that a power nap can really refresh people (which is why the super duper offices like google have napping facilities), and also showing how some people benefit from a later start and how traffic raises your stress levels before you even step into your office and all sorts of things like that, but society continues on the terribly unproductive timetable of 9-5 work hours with stressful rush hour on either side. I don't think it's a good design honestly, but I realise it would be a struggle to change things now. Hopefully we'll improve flexible work schedules and public transport to mitigate these problems somewhat, because I think the way society and the workforce are structured have a lot of unproductive features and we could probably improve some of them (obviously, leaving time for appointments). So I can't entirely criticise her for wanting naps etc. even though I know it's impractical for everyone to do so all at once. I would want naps too if I could.

3) This is ignorant and crazy.

I'm getting a bit defensive here because I get tired very often and I also think 9-5 is stupid

[Annette]

Her degree was indeed in home economics: ccostello.blogspot.com/2007/04/my-experience-of-college-education.html

[ElphabaGalinda]

I think for whatever reason Anna T can't cope with the amount of work or stress that an average person can't. She wasn't even taking a full college course load. But she seems to find even the most mundane thing overwhelming, which she has used to justify her lifestyle. Of course, now that she realizes how exhausting kids can be too, she's decided she doesn't need the as many as possible that she claimed she'd be having before. With the amount of naps she has to take, and the simplicity of things that exhaust her, I think there has to be something medical going on there. But that's also added to thinking that everyone else must cope like her so of COURSE women are meant to stay home and care for children. She's gotten less extreme lately once she realized the difficulty of the life she said all women should lead, but she was always very 'my way is right and all women are just like me.'

[fundiefan]

I don't think Anna can cope with anything, simple or otherwise.

Of the stay at home mom's I know, none really has time for naps or leisurely reading during the day. Especially those with small kids. Even those with kids in the ebil public school don't exactly have too much time on their hands.

[erunerune]

I think that part of the appeal of the fundie lifestyle for low-energy and/or anxiety-prone women is that there are such minimal expectations. Setting one's own bare-bones "schedule," not being accountable to a boss (apart from whatever "headship flavor" one subscribes to), and having so few outside obligations means that you almost never have to be outside of your comfort zone unless you really make an effort to be(and who has the energy for that?).

Rather than attempting to address any possible issues that might result in a richer life experience (and a healthier wife/mom even), it's easier to hide (that is my perception). When I read about insular fundie families, the wives and daughters seem to spend their time on little projects and going around visiting other fundie families in their leisure time. I know that's not all they do, and clearly there is a price to pay for such a circumscribed existence, but there is no immediate pressure to have external achievements and accomplishments that you see in mainstream society.

[bea]

I don't think Anna can cope with anything, simple or otherwise.

Of the stay at home mom's I know, none really has time for naps or leisurely reading during the day. Especially those with small kids. Even those with kids in the ebil public school don't exactly have too much time on their hands.

I wish Anna would go get herself checked out - thyroid, adrenals, iron, etc. Because I'm a chronic pain patient with some mobility issues and two kids (5 and 3) and I have more energy than Anna.

I agree with the idea that Anna would get pretty cheesed off if the entire world was run the way she prefers to live - people just working whenever they feel like it, etc. Except I think we have to remember that Anna doesn't think that everyone should be able to do this. Just the "right people." Like her.

[singsingsing]

I think that part of the appeal of the fundie lifestyle for low-energy and/or anxiety-prone women is that there are such minimal expectations. Setting one's own bare-bones "schedule," not being accountable to a boss (apart from whatever "headship flavor" one subscribes to), and having so few outside obligations means that you almost never have to be outside of your comfort zone unless you really make an effort to be(and who has the energy for that?)

Let's just say that there was a point in time when I was very tempted by the fundie lifestyle. I have an anxiety disorder, panic disorder, anemia, and vitamin deficiencies. The point at which I was most tempted by this lifestyle was when my anxiety and deficiencies were least controlled. Look at it this way, how you'd be living in the 'ideal' fundie situation:

-as a woman you're considered the weaker sex, so you will be taken care of

-no need to go through the anxiety of applying for jobs, interviews, working under supervisors, performance reviews, etc.

-no pressure to really achieve anything other than reproducing

-for girls/women who've felt out of place in their peer group because they feel that they are more sexually or romantically inexperienced, or don't enjoy things that fundies would call sinful, such as clubbing, drinking, R-rated movies or music, this lifestyle validates them and even makes them feel superior

-you get to stay at home as much as you want, in your comfort zone

-your husband is your 'headship' and has the final say, so you never have to take full responsibility for major decisions

-on that note, your husband is a Leader, so if there is a crisis you can just depend on him to lead you through

-the fantasy that you are living a romantic sort of lifestyle from a simpler time

-a highly ordered life with a set of rules for everything: do x, do y, don't do z, and everything will be wonderful

I never seriously went down that road (I couldn't fathom pretending I didn't believe in evolution, convincing myself that the earth was 6000 years old, never drinking beer, never listening to secular music...) but I did romanticize it at one time. So I can definitely understand how some people get sucked into it.

[Mustang Sally]

Hi, nutrition grad here. As far as I understood from reading Anna's blog back in the day, she did indeed do a nutrition degree and the clinical internship required to become an RD.

"Nutrition and home economics" is sometimes used as the title of the degree program because nutrition as a science is rooted in home ec. If you were doing strictly nutrition science, that sometimes doesn't lead to an RD, but perhaps a research position. But knowing the food/cooking component as well as the clinical and pure science aspects of nutrition are necessary to become an RD.

From what I recall, Anna wasn't too pleased about doing her internship after finishing the didactic portion of her degree, but I think she struck a deal with her mom that she would do it. I don't know if she ever took the qualifying exams to become an RD, but I'm under the impression she did the full 4-year degree plus internship.

Not to be huffy or defensive, but a nutrition degree isn't a cakewalk, and it's not purely home ec. It is, like someone mentioned earlier, sort of like a pre-med degree. Lots of chemistry and biology involved, but they also have to include aspects of home ec. so you won't be completely useless on the ground when teaching people about food in real life.

Maybe I'm wrong in my assumption about what kind of degree she did, but I do remember reading her stuff from when she was in school (I was still in school at the time too) and it sounded really similar to my program.

[salsa]

Call it a hunch, but I think Anna T exaggerates to prove her point (including to herself) of women's nature to be at home and how she's so much more content. Even so, I do believe she feels tired and overwhelmed more easily than most (heck, Zsu managed to stay up till 1 for several days making those cones - with a newborn!)

I agree that there must be something going on to make her feel overwhelmed. Thyroid, a hidden autoimmune disease, chronic anemia (even low-grade), all of these things can cause depression and fatigue.

[YPestis]

I think that part of the appeal of the fundie lifestyle for low-energy and/or anxiety-prone women is that there are such minimal expectations. Setting one's own bare-bones "schedule," not being accountable to a boss (apart from whatever "headship flavor" one subscribes to), and having so few outside obligations means that you almost never have to be outside of your comfort zone unless you really make an effort to be(and who has the energy for that?).

Rather than attempting to address any possible issues that might result in a richer life experience (and a healthier wife/mom even), it's easier to hide (that is my perception). When I read about insular fundie families, the wives and daughters seem to spend their time on little projects and going around visiting other fundie families in their leisure time. I know that's not all they do, and clearly there is a price to pay for such a circumscribed existence, but there is no immediate pressure to have external achievements and accomplishments that you see in mainstream society.

You hit the nail on the head and said it with more eloquence than I. Anna T did not grow up fundie. Her mom was a single mom, worked and supported her. Her grandmother worked. She was encouraged to attend college and learn to support herself. I do think her attraction to fundie-dom is precisely because there's minimal expectations so that she feels it's liberating. I wonder what her family thinks of her choices in life. For that matter, what do other Jews around that area think? Unlike in this country, orthodox Jews have no issues with working women and most don't homeschool.

To the OP's points though

1) Exhaustion is relative. I get really tired if I have a full day of work and/or and then it's a struggle to do anything once I get home. This is compounded when I have far to travel. That's great if you could manage everything and still be full of energy after 12 hours of classes, but some of us just aren't like that. (I am actually seeing a doctor to see if my fatigue levels are normal because things seem to be worsening and I have had hypothyroidism in the past, but things seem normal this time around so it might just be me.) If someone is knackered, telling them there are busier people is pretty pointless one upmanship and doesn't help anyone.

2) I actually think society would work a lot better if we had different working hours and naps.

I'm getting a bit defensive here because I get tired very often and I also think 9-5 is stupid

Well, my issue is NOT with Anna T's possible medical condition, it's that she treats her (possible) low energy issue like it's normal for women to feel exhausted from attending college or working a fulltime job. As you noted, you are seeing a doctor regarding medical reasons for your low-energy. Anna T does not acknowledge possible medical reasons for her fatigue. In fact, she treats her reaction to college and jobs as if this is how MOST women react to it.

I was not trying to one up anyone, but to point out that it is normal in today's society for people to juggle jobs and school and kids. Is it tiring? Well, yes it can be. However, LIFE will bring about stress and feelings of tiredness. It's not normal to feel fatigue about daily, mundane activities. That's not a sign that women are not designed to work and go to school, as Anna T contends. It's a sign that perhaps there is an underlying medical issue.....or a personal agenda and bias at work here (as in Anna T's case as well).

People do run better when they power nap. I believe the medical literature says no more than 30 minutes? However, that doesn't mean most people are exhausted from not having their naps, nor that women are ill equipped to work because Anna T needs her naps to feel refreshed. Life requires us to do things when we don't want to do them, to work on other people's schedules when we prefer to not to....Anna T treats that behavior like it's an aberration.

[Guest Anonymous]

I wonder what her family thinks of her choices in life. For that matter, what do other Jews around that area think? Unlike in this country, orthodox Jews have no issues with working women and most don't homeschool.

We know that anna's mother was very worried before she married. Since then, Anna has cut down on contact with family members who drain her energy. I have commented on her blog a couple of times, asking about her Grandma (the one she dragged into court to prove Anna's Jewishness) and asking how often her mother sees Anna's children. She has never replied.

As far as her Jewish community, Anna often talks disparagingly about those with other views. I think though, that she lives on a settlement where most of the local neighbours are reasonably like-minded.

[lilah]

I think that part of the appeal of the fundie lifestyle for low-energy and/or anxiety-prone women is that there are such minimal expectations. Setting one's own bare-bones "schedule," not being accountable to a boss (apart from whatever "headship flavor" one subscribes to), and having so few outside obligations means that you almost never have to be outside of your comfort zone unless you really make an effort to be(and who has the energy for that?).

Rather than attempting to address any possible issues that might result in a richer life experience (and a healthier wife/mom even), it's easier to hide (that is my perception). When I read about insular fundie families, the wives and daughters seem to spend their time on little projects and going around visiting other fundie families in their leisure time. I know that's not all they do, and clearly there is a price to pay for such a circumscribed existence, but there is no immediate pressure to have external achievements and accomplishments that you see in mainstream society.

I'd say that there are some women who chose the fundie lifestyle because because they are anxiety prone or low energy and they get sold a bill of goods about how relaxing it will be to be a stay at home mom, never mind being a mom to a bunch of young children is about the least relaxing pursuit in the world. Hell I remember Anna had some post about her fantasy of living a life similar to Lizzie Bennet's in Pride and Prejudice; to which I responded that only the landed gentry had the free time to noodle around and write letters and take walks, everyone else is was working their butts off.

I don't think it really occurs to Anna that her lifestyle is directly supported by her husband, it would not exist without him working to support her.

Although there are plenty of high energy fundies like Zsu or Kelly. But they seem to like the lifestyle because they get to be know it alls and have an answer for everything,

I agree that Anna should take advantage of her government's free healthcare and get herself worked over and figure out why she is so low energy and needs to nap every day. I've noticed this about her for a while and I wonder why she never thinks to go to the doctor.

[marmalade]

Hi, nutrition grad here. As far as I understood from reading Anna's blog back in the day, she did indeed do a nutrition degree and the clinical internship required to become an RD.

"Nutrition and home economics" is sometimes used as the title of the degree program because nutrition as a science is rooted in home ec. If you were doing strictly nutrition science, that sometimes doesn't lead to an RD, but perhaps a research position. But knowing the food/cooking component as well as the clinical and pure science aspects of nutrition are necessary to become an RD.

From what I recall, Anna wasn't too pleased about doing her internship after finishing the didactic portion of her degree, but I think she struck a deal with her mom that she would do it. I don't know if she ever took the qualifying exams to become an RD, but I'm under the impression she did the full 4-year degree plus internship.

Not to be huffy or defensive, but a nutrition degree isn't a cakewalk, and it's not purely home ec. It is, like someone mentioned earlier, sort of like a pre-med degree. Lots of chemistry and biology involved, but they also have to include aspects of home ec. so you won't be completely useless on the ground when teaching people about food in real life.

Maybe I'm wrong in my assumption about what kind of degree she did, but I do remember reading her stuff from when she was in school (I was still in school at the time too) and it sounded really similar to my program.

Thanks for clarifying what type of work Anna did and that a real degree in the field is a ton of advanced math/sciences/labs. I think most schools are now calling the degree "Dietetics" so as not to be confused with the hacks out there calling themselves "nutritionists" who have no formal training, other than working at a gym or something.

eta: Love the shout out to SJR! The GLASSES!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[2xx1xy1JD]

Anna got her (mis)perceptions about religious women's roles more from fundie Christian sources than Orthodox Jewish ones.

Orthodox Jewish women in Israel work - many times, they work harder than the men. There is 3 mos of mat leave, and then they return to work and put their kids into daycare. Anna has been critical of this. In addition, large families are highly encouraged. Birth control is permitted, but it's seen as being for those who can't cope. Since Israelis tend to be far more in-your-face than Americans, she's probably faced looks and questions from others, and is aware that having only two kids will stand out. I suspect she's getting more love from the virtual world than her real-life neighbors.

[luckystone]

Well, my issue is NOT with Anna T's possible medical condition, it's that she treats her (possible) low energy issue like it's normal for women to feel exhausted from attending college or working a fulltime job. As you noted, you are seeing a doctor regarding medical reasons for your low-energy. Anna T does not acknowledge possible medical reasons for her fatigue. In fact, she treats her reaction to college and jobs as if this is how MOST women react to it.

I was not trying to one up anyone, but to point out that it is normal in today's society for people to juggle jobs and school and kids. Is it tiring? Well, yes it can be. However, LIFE will bring about stress and feelings of tiredness. It's not normal to feel fatigue about daily, mundane activities. That's not a sign that women are not designed to work and go to school, as Anna T contends. It's a sign that perhaps there is an underlying medical issue.....or a personal agenda and bias at work here (as in Anna T's case as well).

People do run better when they power nap. I believe the medical literature says no more than 30 minutes? However, that doesn't mean most people are exhausted from not having their naps, nor that women are ill equipped to work because Anna T needs her naps to feel refreshed. Life requires us to do things when we don't want to do them, to work on other people's schedules when we prefer to not to....Anna T treats that behavior like it's an aberration.

Yes, it's typical fundie bias that women get exhausted from doing manly things like college and work, and that having several young kids running around is not exhausting.

It really irritates me how these people extrapolate from their own preferences to "my gender should/shouldn't do this" or "my race should/shouldn't do this" or whatever.

I'm getting checked, but I don't think I HAVE a medical condition...it just felt like you were shaming exhausted people. I wish I had more energy :(

[YPestis]

Yes, it's typical fundie bias that women get exhausted from doing manly things like college and work, and that having several young kids running around is not exhausting.

It really irritates me how these people extrapolate from their own preferences to "my gender should/shouldn't do this" or "my race should/shouldn't do this" or whatever.

I'm getting checked, but I don't think I HAVE a medical condition...it just felt like you were shaming exhausted people. I wish I had more energy :(

No shame in feeling tired. That was not my intention. I never want to make people feel bad about.....feeling bad. As a doc, i am a big advocate of seeing health practitioners if you think something is wrong (unlike Anna T who hates docs). I guess I need to work on my forum-side manners as well. :D