Is this an FJ-er? (One Bright Corner SAHDs)

[Daenerys]

onebrightcorner.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/the-myth-of-no-mans-land-between.html#comment-form

Someone posted this in response to a post in OBC where the writer, Lauren, was extoling the virtues of the period in between childhood and marriage (she is 22). There are rarely people who openly challenge what these girls believe - I have tested and they post all politely worded comments - so I wondered where on earth this came from!

At 22, I had been working as a nurse for 3 years. I didn't marry until 27 and didn't have children until 30. I am now a grandmother in my late 50's and a Christian over 45 years.

Stay at home daughterhood is not taught by Christ. Preferably stay at home momhood, but not daughterhood. It is a doctrine of man and you are wise to question this, because it will bury your talent, for which you will have to answer, handicap and possibly destroy your future, or that of your future children. The things you accomplish being a stay at home daughter - caring for a home - anyone can learn quickly. It does not take years of apprenticeship.

Christ is to be our focus, not family or marriage. I suggest you use these between years to get an education utilizing the talents you have been given and which can realistically provide for your future, and use it. You will then be far better prepared for yourself, your family, your husband, for Christ; should the need to work arise after marriage, or if you do not marry.

Marriage is not the end all be all. Some never marry. The bible actually says that to not marry is the better state to be in. Some are widowed. Some are divorced. Some are left with sick or dying husbands. There are no guarantees. The only guarantee we have is our salvation in Christ.

What will you do if your parents or husband become sick or die unexpectedly, or your husband suffers a financial disaster and you are left with nothing? No education. No money. No means but huge responsibilities and children who need to be provided for? It happens. And what if you then get sick?

Get to work on your life so that you can be an asset to Christ and others, not a liability. The best way to do that is to become a fully functioning responsible adult through education and work. You are an adult. And you will have to answer someday for what you have done with your gifts. A woman accompanying her husband to the mission field is far more valuable if she is a nurse, doctor, teacher. Anyone can set a pretty table.

The no man's land you seem to think you are caught in is the result of being told by man to stay at home while burying your talent. Sitting around pining about your state of limbo makes you look like a fool, and not a very wise fool for Christ.

Lauren's response really shows that although she is a good writer and reasonably educated (better than most SOTDRT I think), she genuinely does not know how to debate with people who have a completely different perspective to her. Even within themselves, her Bible arguments seem weak to me as the verses could easily be interpreted differently. As Christopher Hitchens once said: "you come across as someone who has never read any of the arguments against your own point of view". She clearly does not understand the difficulties that she could face without her father's financial protection: how little her few hours of teaching a week will count for in the face of rent, bills and food expenditure. It makes me sad to think how someone who is clearly academically gifted has been so stunted from reaching her potential.

Dear Mrs. Anonymous,

It is good to hear from a Christian grandma—I love grandparents who follow after the Lord, as mine do. I also am glad to hear your affirmation of stay-at-home motherhood. You’re right, there are some instances in which no matter the sacrifice, it is impossible for a mother to stay at home. However, we can agree that being a wife and mother is a mother’s primary role.

I don’t want there to be any misunderstanding about my article. I agree with you that marriage is not “the end all be all†and that some never marry. I do not agree that the Bible says that to not marry is a better state to be in. I Corinthians 7:8 says, “But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am.†But Proverbs 18:22 says, “He who finds a wife finds a good thing, And obtains favor from the LORD.†If you say that I Corinthians 7:8 says that being single is superlative to marriage, then by that same logic Proverbs 18:22 would mean that the single are cursed by God to not have a good thing and favor from the Lord! Either state is good only if it is God’s will for my life. I would rather never marry than marry the wrong man, you can be sure.

Now, as to stay at home daughterhood, I am not questioning it all! I believe that I am blessed to be a stay at home daughter, and that home is the ideal place to be until marriage. Why else would Genesis 2:24 say, “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.� Dinah is a sad and extreme example in Scripture of a daughter who went out to enjoy the lusts of the world and was led astray. (See Genesis 34) Titus 2:4-5 says, “that [the older women] admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed.†Even if I never marry, learning to be discreet, chaste, a homemaker, and a good woman are valuable skills that I am learning from my mother and many other women in my life right now! I think you sadly degrade the calling of motherhood when you say anyone can learn those things quickly. Motherhood, as you well know, is not merely about baking casseroles.

I am not questioning my role as a single daughter at home. But I am questioning the purposelessness, selfishness, and living for the moment that I see so many young people in my age bracket falling prey to. I actually don’t think I’m caught in a no man’s land. But I do think that our culture, and even some Christians, propogate the myth of the no man’s land. I know that I do not need to live in fear of the almighty “what if [fill in the blankâ€, but live trusting in the providence of God. But I also know that this precious time that I have needs to be redeemed, and skills are important to develop, which is why I’m working on a college degree, teaching music lessons, playing in a local symphony, writing a blog, writing for a Christian ministry, teaching my siblings, and canning peach jam and vacuuming carpets all at the same time!

I’m not in limbo pining for a man—I’m happy and content where I am and where God has placed me. God has certainly been challenging me to use this time even more for Him, and I am always growing in that! You note that I “look like a fool, and not a very wise fool for Christ.†I am indeed nothing more than a fool saved by the blood of Christ, and I am honored to be one. In the words of I Corinthians 1:26-17, “For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty.â€

Thoughts?

[kpmom]

This blogger claims she is working on a college degree, which sounds great until you read her bio (and her sister) and it appears her degree is an online A.A. degree in "Music Ministry", whatever that is. The commenter was wisely trying to tell her to use this time to get some marketable skills because we don't know what the future holds, and she basically blew her off with God will provide twaddle.

Why do young fundy women often blow off this kind of advice? I've seen this smug attitude before. Have their lives always been sunshine and unicorns? Do they always assume it will be? How is planning for the future not trusting in God's provision?

[thoughtful]

Now, as to stay at home daughterhood, I am not questioning it all! I believe that I am blessed to be a stay at home daughter, and that home is the ideal place to be until marriage. Why else would Genesis 2:24 say, “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.�

Um doesn't that imply that it's the groom who should be home with Ma and Pa until he marries?

[formergothardite]

The Bible never actually says that Dinah did anything wrong. Gothard teaches that she did to try and scare women into never leaving home until they get married.

[lilith]

I could be wrong, but that commenter sounds like Nurse Nell to me.

[JMarie]

By the age of 22, I'd think she'd already know everything there is to know about being discreet and chaste and all that other stuff. How hard can it be??

[PennySycamore]

I could be wrong, but that commenter sounds like Nurse Nell to me.

I thought so, too. I haven't checked all Nurse Nell's old posts, though, to see when she became a mother.

It was a great post even if it weren't written by a FJ.

[Minerva]

She is so not thinking for herself.

“that [the older women] admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed.â€

That could just as easily be interpreted as being directed at married women with children.

And I don't know who the commenter is, but whoever they are, they're patient.

[ilovetchotchkes]

The Bible never actually says that Dinah did anything wrong. Gothard teaches that she did to try and scare women into never leaving home until they get married.

Not only that, but don't her father demand the rapists be circumcised and then as they're nursing their wounds in a weak state, her brothers kill them?

The death of the rapists and in such an ironic manner lead me to subsequently believe that whomever wrote the text thinks the rapists are definitely in the wrong.

[Arete]

Why do young fundy women often blow off this kind of advice? I've seen this smug attitude before. Have their lives always been sunshine and unicorns? Do they always assume it will be? How is planning for the future not trusting in God's provision?

Because their mothers and fathers are blowing off this advice and not being straight with their young men or women. Most of us had at least one parent who was blue in the face from saying "Life is hard, you have to be prepared, you have to be able to stand on your own feet, an education is never a waste" etc. This young woman and others like her a dealing with parents who sabotage their futures by refusing to impart generational wisdom. It's always a zero sum game for them, if you develop skills and education, it somehow means that you are being unfaithful to God. They never consider the words "Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition."

[YPestis]

Fundie women ignore the (well worn) advice of acquiring marketable skills for the same reason nonfundie women ignore this advice: because it's not going to happen to them. I've also seen the argument that we can't dwell on the horrible things that can happen because we can't prepare for them all (therefore we don't prepare for anything bad?). Fundie girls just carry it further by insisting on staying home waiting for Prince Charming. I've seen nonfundie, but conservative, young girls who also have this attitude. They want to do the SAHM thing, so they don't want to put much effort a career. Young people tend to be optimistic, they feel nothing bad can touch them. It's the adults in their lives that should provide a reality check. Fundie parents, because of their horror of the world and their stress on "traditional family" do the opposite and keep their daughters isolated. They essentially treat their adult daughters like children. Only in our society, we expect woman to act like adults. This isn't Saudi Arabia where women are not allowed to work, drive, engage in financial transactions. Our society will expect them to work if their husbands die or they divorce. They will be expected to make financial decisions, acquire an education if required for job, make adult decisions. Historically, women are denied these rights and were SAHD because they could never utilize their decision making abilities. Today, that is no longer the case, yet these girls are raised with that expectation.

[Daenerys]

The Bible never actually says that Dinah did anything wrong. Gothard teaches that she did to try and scare women into never leaving home until they get married.

What actually happened to Dinah?

[formergothardite]

Now Dinah, the daughter Leah had borne to Jacob, went out to visit the women of the land. 2 When Shechem son of Hamor the Hivite, the ruler of that area, saw her, he took her and raped her.

Nothing in this says that Dinah was sinning to go out or that being raped was some sort of punishment. Her brothers end up killing the guy along with tons of others. And this is Jacob's response:

Then Jacob said to Simeon and Levi, “You have brought trouble on me by making me obnoxious to the Canaanites and Perizzites, the people living in this land. We are few in number, and if they join forces against me and attack me, I and my household will be destroyed.â€

So Gothard teaches that the moral of the story is to not leave your house or horrible things will happen to you and you will bring nothing but pain to your father's house. Totally not in the Bible at all. The only people who it is even implied did anything wrong is Shechem, Simeon and Levi.

I left her a link to a Recovering Grace article about how Gothard twists the story of Dinah and adds all sorts of stuff that isn't in the Bible to it. Don't know if she will post it, but hopefully she will at least read it and then start reading the other stories on there.

[Daenerys]

She once did a 'day in the life' post, and I doubt her life has hugely changed from then to now. What struck me was how she felt she was really really super busy and whilst she did do a lot, almost all of it (church, library, piano) were enjoyable activities she chose to do, and very little of it was obligations. Most of that was cleaning. She didn't have the pressure of exam revising or going out to earn money, which is what drives many of us through the day. It sounds like a pretty easy life to me.

onebrightcorner.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/24-hours.html

6:20 My alarm rings an hour later than normal, for we had a late night the night before with a delightful cello quartet concert, and this week is the ominous, yearly, and much-dreaded "Shut Down" at Papa’s mill, meaning he works twelve hour days...so our usual morning family devotions are on hold for this week. But with the alarm, my very typical untypical day begins.

6:22 I roll out of bed, wiping the sand from my eyes.

6:23 I yawn and turn on my light.

6:24-6:45 My morning routine taken care of, I spend some quiet time with the Lord.

6:45 The phone rings and, perplexed, I run to get it. I’m not expecting a call until 7:30 from Mrs. D., a dear woman who is acting as “mentor†in a college class. Sure enough, though, it is her on the phone, but the early call is better for my schedule anyways.

6:50-8:51 I call Mrs. D. back on our phone so it doesn’t use up her minutes, and for two hours we discuss the character of God as seen in Psalms 1-30, and the authority of God’s Word as seen in that same passage and the book of Joshua. This class is very intense, but I am learning so much, and getting to learn from a woman like Mrs. D., who is passionate about God’s Word, is such a delight! Joshua is such a wonderful book, too--a veritable guidebook to victory in the Christian life.

8:51-9:30 I grab breakfast of yummy fresh bran muffins and a shower…this morning is going by way too fast!

9:30-10:30 I get in my piano practice—if we didn’t schedule people on the piano, it would be in use all day long! I get contrary motion scales and other theory exercises out of the way and work on my memory on Mozart’s Fantasy in D. Yes! I think I finally have the whole thing memorized!

10:30-11:30 I clean the kitchen and get ready for my day.

11:30-12 I sneak onto the piano once more for just a wee bit more practicing! (-:

12-12:30 We eat lunch—grilled cheese and top ramen. How’s that for gourmet? But it’s the kool-aid and the homemade anise cookies at the end that make the meal!

12:30-1:10 We scramble around, cleaning the kitchen, gathering books, shoes and coats—it’s rush hour at our house with preparations underway to leave for piano lessons.

1:17 Mikaela, Melanie, Susanna, Micah and I are off, and only a few minutes late! All of us girls take lessons, and Micah is along for the ride today because, with Papa’s strange schedule this week, we are going to have to take him to cello lessons after our piano lessons.

1:30-2:00 Being the nice sister I am, I agree to go on an errand to the library for Melanie during her lesson. Our library is a wonder—a beautiful brick structure built in the early 1920s, with a beautiful clock tower and three delicious stories of books. I check out a few things for Melanie and the movie Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, which several people have been harassing and even bribing us to watch but we just haven’t yet. I seem to check it out every time I go to the library, and every time, we just can’t find the time to watch it. Maybe it’s the Providence of God? (-: I also check out an old favorite of a book—Freckles.

2:00-2:15 I find myself with a few spare minutes, and I’ve been curious lately to see how my parallel parking skills are, since I haven’t actually had to parallel park since my driver’s test a few years ago. I can’t believe I’m admitting this, but I pull off onto a few side streets and practice some parallel parking! I nail three out of the four attempts, so I’m happy to discover that parallel parking must be like riding a bike—you never forget. But you never stop worrying about forgetting, either. A few minutes later, when I remembered that I would have to report this incident to you all, I fleetingly thought about simply leaving a blank space of fifteen minutes in my day…but I decided it would be edifying to you all to encourage you to persevere in your routine parallel parking check-ups. Or something like that.

2:15-4:10 I’m back at Mr. K.’s—our piano teacher—and spend the time during my sisters’ lessons doing schoolwork. During my lesson, I play on his turn-of-the-century Steinway grand piano, and it is delightful!

4:10-5:00 We take Micah to his cello lesson. His teacher’s German Shepherd jumps up on the fence to greet Micah, because last week we were early and Micah had time to lovingly scratch behind the dog’s ears. She watches in disbelief as Micah hauls his cello right past her without so much as a "Hey, girl, how are you?"!

5-5:30 We dash home and eat dinner--a smorgasbord of leftovers. Jonah discovers huge candy bars in the “prize box†and is excited until Mama tells him he can only have a particular section. A few minutes later, he brings the candy bar to Mama: “Can you show me a particular section?â€

5:30-6 In less time than it takes to tell, the kitchen is cleaned, piano books are put away, shoes are once again found, and we are almost ready to leave for prayer meeting.

6:05 We were supposed to leave five minutes ago, but Papa is upstairs printing something, Jonah is desperately looking for his shoes (so apparently not all the shoes were found), and I’m cleaning out the sinks.

6:13 We’re finally on our way! Mikaela stayed home because her cold is only getting worse, and she decided that it would be better to get some rest. In the car, we chat about the day and I tell Papa about the hilarious cello concert the night before (in particular, this song).

6:30-7:45 Prayer meeting! Everyone is attired in heavy coats and gloves, for the thermostat in our church needs to be changed if we want heat on prayer meeting nights. Oh well, it keeps us lively and awake! One of my piano students, a little five year old, sees me and is excited—“Hey, that’s my piano teacher! Hey, Miss Lauren!†I grin at him, delighted at his exuberance, and we share some smiles. We sing some beautiful songs of worship to get our hearts focused on Christ (and enjoy hearing the cooing of a one year old as she lifts her voice with us!), and then share prayer requests. Then, we enter into a time of heartfelt prayer, worship, and intercession. This time is always so refreshing to me, and I come away energized and encouraged! At the close, we watch a short video from one of the missionaries we support.

7:45-8:15 Our church can never get together without fellowshipping! We chat for a while on every topic imaginable, and then head out into the cold night! We actually got some snow the day before, although it didn’t stick, so our weather right now is quite chilly!

8:15-8:50 We drive home, listening to Dave Ramsey on the way.

8:50-10:30 I do some school, unwind, and get ready for bed. Then, lights out, and Wednesday, March 10, 2010 is over! I hope your day was as action-packed, encouraging, and profitable as mine was! Until the next ringing of the alarm clock...

[Deleted05]

I must have missed the part where Dinah went out to enjoy the lusts of the world. Where was that exactly?

"Now Dinah, the daughter Leah had borne to Jacob, went out to visit the women of the land. When Shechem son of Hamor the Hivite, the ruler of that area, saw her, he took her and raped her."

Also, why wasn't it a sin for the women who followed and supported Jesus to leave on their own? Why didn't Jesus send them back to their husbands and fathers?

"Also, some women were with him. They had been cured from evil spirits and various illnesses. These women were Mary, also called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out; Joanna, whose husband Chusa was Herod’s administrator; Susanna; and many other women. They provided financial support for Jesus and his disciples."

Probably not going to see the light of day, but we'll try.

[salsa]

We eat lunch—grilled cheese and top ramen. How’s that for gourmet? But it’s the kool-aid and the homemade anise cookies at the end that make the meal!

Blech! Grilled cheese, OK, anise cookies, fine .... but paired with ramen and kool aid???? yuck.

[Talitha Cumi]

6:22 I roll out of bed, wiping the sand from my eyes.

6:23 I yawn and turn on my light.

6:24-6:45 My morning routine taken care of, I spend some quiet time with the Lord.

That's a morning routine?

12-12:30 We eat lunch—grilled cheese and top ramen. How’s that for gourmet? But it’s the kool-aid and the homemade anise cookies at the end that make the meal!

:lol:

8:50-10:30 I do some school, unwind, and get ready for bed. Then, lights out, and Wednesday, March 10, 2010 is over! I hope your day was as action-packed, encouraging, and profitable as mine was! Until the next ringing of the alarm clock...

So, an hour and a half of school. Damn, I wish I'd been able to get degrees doing that little. (Oh wait, no I don't, cause I wouldn't have LEARNED ANYTHING.) She spent more time talking about Jesus with that woman. Although I suppose they think Jesus trumps actual learning.

[delilahdog11]

I want to scream at all these fundies: y'all need Jesus, motherfuckers. It is obvious that none of them have truly studied the teachings of Jesus or the history of Christianity, and how Christian leaders have been using the mythos of Jesus for political gains and power. When will they realize that the teachings of leaders like Gothard or The Tool (Doug Phillips) are leading them so far astray of Jesus' teaching that if there is a hell then they will be burning in it.

It was pretty obvious that she was questioning or wondering about her SAHD role, but when she was brought to task about it. She quickly backtracked. I would like to take her to Burning Man with me. Put her out in the harsh climate with nothing and see how well praying would get her the water, food, and shelter she would need. Now. Granted at Burning Man you can get many of the things you need without paying for them because it is a gifting culture, but the first principle of the burner culture is radical self reliance so she might not be able to get everything she needed from strangers and extra water is hard to come by. Now. If she has to take care of child or several children out on the playa through prayer alone then there would be no way she would make it.

I think that Burning Man would show her an example of living in the real world, if she no longer had her parents or husband providing for her. Yes. She most likely would get help from churches, food banks, perhaps even turning to evil socialist programs like food stamps- all gifts from the Lord and answer to prayer, but the people in need are greater than the resources allotted to help them. So how long would the lord be answering her prayers for help? It would also be difficult to get help from other fundy families as I imagine most of those families are struggling to make ends meet and to get food on the table.

Interdependency is not evil or wrong. Relying on parents, friends, lovers, spouses to provide financial and emotional

support is necessary at times, but the women replying is saying take time to develop skills and to gain experience

to prepare for a time when these resources may not be avaiable to support you.

My parents help me financially because I cannot work as my two year old needs me at home now due to a serious illness. I haven't worked because of him and because I returned to school a few years back to get a more useful degree in math, well more useful than an English degree. I am constantly worried about taking money from them and being able to support myself. My husband can only provide so much financial support. My goal in life is to be here for my son, to take care of his health needs, but I don't plan on staying at home leeching off my parents and husband for the rest of my life. Not saying any or all SAHD or SAHM are leeching off anyone. Raising a family and taking care of a household is hard work. Some families are able to live on a single salary. Most families are not. I realize their financial support is not an endless supply and I will need to contribute money as well. Plus. I know I would enjoy having a break by going to work.

[Daenerys]

You know, they cut down blogging from once a week to once a fortnight each (so one post each Tuesday) because the stress of school was just TOO MUCH for them.

There's a part ii coming soon as well guys, so if you haven't commented on part i then there's still a chance...

Interesting that they don't have a Facebook but their mother does. Another form of control?

[formergothardite]

Well she still hasn't posted my comment. I didn't think she would, but I hope she reads the link and starts thinking about what ATI really is and what she has been taught.

[Deleted05]

Or mine. I've heard the "Dinah was a harlot!" fallacy over and over, but no one has ever told me why those married women following Jesus around and supporting them with their own money shouldn't have been sent back to their headships immediately.

[Daenerys]

Where is NurseNell? Now I remember she has definitely read their blog before, it sounds even more likely to be her.

Formergotherdite that is interesting. I have never failed to get a comment published by them, even really critical ones. What did you say?

[Olive Plant]

The timeline of her day is hilarious to me because it sounds like a fake homeschooler's timeline I once wrote out for my own amusement making fun of "perfect" homeschoolers. Poe's law is alive and well.

[formergothardite]

I said that the Bible never said Dinah sinned or that she was wrong in anyway and then linked to a Recovering Grace article that explained how the only way to use that story in the way she is is to add to the Bible. The story taken just as it is written places no blame on Dinah. I was very nice, but they are Gothard followers aren't they? So the anti-Gothard site might have caused her to not publish it.

[Daenerys]

I don't know if they are VF or ATI... their college is affliated with the latter but they were at Amy Broadrick's wedding and she's VF, right?

I wonder if all this 'waiting for marriage' stuff is code for not being sure they want the marriage-and-babies life, since it would require giving up so much. They have talked repeatedly about avoiding anything more than minimum relationships with eligible young men, which doesn't sound like people looking for marriage to me.