To love and to submit

[terranova]

BRIDES will be promising to submit to their husbands under a new marriage vow the Anglican diocese of Sydney is expected to approve at its synod in October.

It requires the minister to ask of the bride: ''Will you honour and submit to him, as the church submits to Christ?'' and for her to pledge ''to love and submit'' to her husband.

But Stephanie and Andrew Judd from Sydney, who used part of the new service when they wed in January, said those who were offended by the word were not placing it in the right context.

''The husband's love is one of sacrificial love, and to submit to that kind of love is not oppressive, but is actually a joy and a great freedom,'' said Mrs Judd, 26, who teaches Christian studies at a private girls' school

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/to-love-and-t ... 24ru7.html (not breaking because it's a large newspaper)

Why should a woman have to submit to her husband for any reason? And a husband's love isn't sacrificial. What is a husband sacrificing to love his wife??

It's 2012 here people.

:evil: :evil: :evil:

[Miggy]

The Anglican church is getting more and more conservative so this doesn't surprise me at all. (The Sydney diocese in particular seems to have a more than ample supply of loonies.) I have been to two Anglican weddings recently where the sermon was based on the "Women submit to your husbands" passage but neither went on to read or discuss the bit about how husbands should treat wives. In both cases the minister was also the father of the groom. I am very concerned for the future of these girls, knowing they have married into a family where the husband and father-in-law think this way.

[nokidsmom]

have been to two Anglican weddings recently where the sermon was based on the "Women submit to your husbands" passage but neither went on to read or discuss the bit about how husbands should treat wives.

The one super fundie wedding I attended (cousin) the minister did focus on the passage in it's entirety but spent a lot more time on the wife submission part. Including addressing the passage to "all you feminists out there" meaning the family and friends attending the wedding. :roll:

[Peas n carrots]

Oh why oh why can't people just abandon the churches already? I have no problem with spirituality, but religion poisons the well, and they sell the medicine to cure the sickness after drinking the poisoned water. The church does not care about you and yr family...it's only there to preserve th patriarchy.

[luckystone]

The one super fundie wedding I attended (cousin) the minister did focus on the passage in it's entirety but spent a lot more time on the wife submission part. Including addressing the passage to "all you feminists out there" meaning the family and friends attending the wedding. :roll:

Haha wtf

[Childless]

Oh why oh why can't people just abandon the churches already? I have no problem with spirituality, but religion poisons the well, and they sell the medicine to cure the sickness after drinking the poisoned water. The church does not care about you and yr family...it's only there to preserve th patriarchy.

This crap is exactly why I no longer attend church. My husband and I were married at the courthouse. Nice, simple, short, sweet, and none of the religious bullshit. I believe that a marriage is an equal partnership and no one should be submitting to anyone else. Spouses should work together to make decisions or solve problems. A partnership does not consist of masters and slaves.

[charizbarb]

Doesn't surprise me that this is coming from Sydney - Sydney Anglicans are erm, special. But it definitely doesn't represent the whole church worldwide or even just the Anglican/Episcopal church as a whole. The US Episcopal church is technically in communion with Sydney Anglicans but they're as different as chalk and cheese. I'm a Christian and would never use submit or obey in my wedding vows.

[charizbarb]

Oh why oh why can't people just abandon the churches already? I have no problem with spirituality, but religion poisons the well, and they sell the medicine to cure the sickness after drinking the poisoned water. The church does not care about you and yr family...it's only there to preserve th patriarchy.

I don't think this is applicable to all religions or even all churches. Katherine Jefferts Schori is hardly a friend of the patriarchy.

[linnea27]

''The husband's love is one of sacrificial love, and to submit to that kind of love is not oppressive, but is actually a joy and a great freedom,'' said Mrs Judd, 26, who teaches Christian studies at a private girls' school

If it's so great, why aren't men signing up to enjoy that type of "joy" and "freedom"? Or are women incapable of sacrificial love, whatever that is?

[linnea27]

The one super fundie wedding I attended (cousin) the minister did focus on the passage in it's entirety but spent a lot more time on the wife submission part. Including addressing the passage to "all you feminists out there" meaning the family and friends attending the wedding. :roll:

The first time I ever heard of a wife submitting to her husband I was sitting next to my husband at a wedding in his fundie-lite family. My jaw was ON THE FLOOR as I listened to the speaker rattle on about how divorces are caused by failing to follow the divine plan of submission/headship. My husband said he couldn't even look at me because he knew I'd be in shock and he knew if he saw my face he'd burst out laughing. Needless to say, my husband didn't choose this path for his marriage- he told me later that he grew up watching his parents' marriage and vowed to never repeat it, as he didn't believe that his family benefitted at all from his father's headship and his mother's submission.

[emmiedahl]

This was just put up at LAF's facebook yesterday and I was mentally snarking. I think it is relevant here:

Submission is not...

1. Simply or singularly a marriage issue

Submission is God’s design. It is a reflection of the interaction within the Trinity. Whether single or married, submission is a core heart issue revealing one’s dependence upon God. For a wife, it demonstrates her willingness to yield to her husband’s lead in obedience and belief of God’s covenant to her.

2. Degrading

Women have been lured into believing that submission is somehow humiliating. It does not bestow second-class status. It was Christ’s glory to submit to his father’s plan of redemption for his children; it is a wife’s glory to submit to God’s plan of provision and protection for her life

3. Silent

When submission is depicted as voiceless oppression, both men and women lose. God declared that men need help and to leave them without our prayerful input is to deny them help—the very thing God declared they need. Submission uses her voice to speak words of grace and life into her husband’s life.

4. Fearful

A fearful woman will have a very hard time submitting to her husband. A fearful woman isn’t actively trusting God with her life, which makes entrusting a man with your future nearly impossible. Submission to Christ frees a woman from fear as she rests in God’s character and provision for her, delivered through her husband.

5. Joyless

A joyless wife is an ungrateful wife. Submission says, as Jesus did, “Not my will but yours be done.†There is great joy found in doing the will of God. Even in the most difficult of circumstances, joy bubbles out of a heart that is thankful to God for who he is and what he gives. "Whether single or married, submission is a core heart issue revealing one’s dependence upon God."

6. Stifling

When submissive women are portrayed as stunted or limited in their freedom, they are being lied about. Submission is a safe place of protection where we are able to express our gifts and creativity for the glory of God and benefit of our marriages.

7. Dumb

It is not a dumb thing to do, nor does it make you dumb. There is no “I get to check my brain at the door because he is in charge†thinking as the world often portrays. Submission is the response of an intelligent woman who knows her Bible and believes that God’s design is best.

8. Weak

Submissive women are not mousy. They will not settle for doormat status. The posture of submission is strength willingly placed under the authority of another. Our husbands need our best. Our best is the power that comes from Christ alone as we depend on him to embody Christlikeness to our men.

9. Automatic

A submissive spirit does not kick in the moment you say, “I doâ€. It is a heart response that all women begin to cultivate as we submit to Christ first. Wives will have their hearts exposed in the area of submission to God. A wife who submits cheerfully and graciously to her husband will always have at her core a heart knelt in submission to Christ.

10. Self-Focused

A truly submissive heart doesn’t need to be concerned with taking care of herself. The submitted heart does not ask, “What’s in it for me?†but rather, “How can I serve God and my husband with my life?â€

[wtfrenchtoast]

If it's so great, why aren't men signing up to enjoy that type of "joy" and "freedom"? Or are women incapable of sacrificial love, whatever that is?

This this this! I hate how fundies try to play it off like women have get the "easy" or "better" way. And another thing, by definition, submission IS oppressive. A submissive woman doesn't get to do what she wants or what she thinks is best. When it comes down to it, she has to do what her husband says, period. That's not oppressive? Really? Fuck them all.

[Cran]

If they would play the submissive part of the husband out in the same way as they do with the wives, it would be much better, because I can see that a husband who truly seeks to be humble, meek etc. wouldn't be pleased with a doormat wife to tyrannise over.

But the way they're using this bible quote degrades women to slaves.

[Knight of Ni]

When people talk about submission my first thought is "What you do in the bedroom is your business."

I will most definitely not have the words "obey" or "submit" in my wedding vows. If I have to I will specifically request that they be left out.

[Arete]

Fearful

A fearful woman will have a very hard time submitting to her husband. A fearful woman isn’t actively trusting God with her life, which makes entrusting a man with your future nearly impossible. Submission to Christ frees a woman from fear as she rests in God’s character and provision for her, delivered through her husband

I want the biblical verses they are supposedly using to back this garbage up. A Christian woman does not believe God's character and provision are delivered through her husband. She gets to access these directly all by herself regardless of her marital status.

The rest of it is pretty off the rails as well.

[slickcat79]

5. Joyless

A joyless wife is an ungrateful wife. Submission says, as Jesus did, “Not my will but yours be done.†There is great joy found in doing the will of God. Even in the most difficult of circumstances, joy bubbles out of a heart that is thankful to God for who he is and what he gives. "Whether single or married, submission is a core heart issue revealing one’s dependence upon God."

O rly? I'm trying to think of a fundie woman whose joy "bubbles out" of her heart, but I can't think of any :? Maybe a few of the fundie maidens, but once they really get into that "submit to christ through your husband" business and add a few extra kids with no extra money...joyful is not really the word.

[Wolfie]

You know, my parents were married in an Episcopal church in 1971, no obey in their vows. My mom refused to allow it. They're still married, longer than most.

[fundyfunland]

I'm more and more convinced that this whole fundie obsession with power dynamics is just their way of having God-approved BDSM relationships.

[Knight of Ni]

I'm more and more convinced that this whole fundie obsession with power dynamics is just their way of having God-approved BDSM relationships.

My thoughts exactly. Only way they won't feel guilty about their sexual preferences.

[Hane]

I'm just tired from trying to sort out the kinds of mental gymnastics necessary for someone to believe that submission isn't degrading, joyless, and stifling. War is peace! Freedom is slavery! Ignorance is strength!

Whenever I get together with my fellow divorced sexagenarians, we sit around still surprised at how much better our lives have become now that we're not married. How sad that a nice, happy divorce (something far easier to compass than a nice, happy marriage to a genuinely good man) will most likely never be possible for these poor gals.