Mormonism in America

[PennySycamore]

I think personal religion is usually irrelevant to public office. I am not generally concerned about having a Mormon in the office, I am concerned about one particular Mormon whose church believes he is coming to vindicate them as a fulfillment of prophecy. That *does* concern me. Mitt has not done a spectacular job of addressing this issue; when asked about it he said that the prophesy is not official LDS doctrine but would not go into whether he personally believes it or thinks he is fulfilling it. Come to think of it, Mitt has not really addressed any concerns, from the taxes to the budget to how Romneycare & the ACA are different. He does not think he really needs to explain anything to anyone--he deserves the presidency and we are being annoying little peons for arguing with authority.

People did question whether a Catholic could be president several decades ago and JFK eloquently addressed their concerns. That is the behavior of a leader, as opposed to the behavior of a man who believes his presidency is inevitable because it was ordained by God.

THIS!!

[Samantha]

Romney has stated over and over again how much his faith influences him and his decisions. Romney may or may not believe the White Horse Prophecy, that doesn't concern me as much. As an ex-member I am more concerned about their stance on women, gays and everyone who is not a white heterosexual male.

I think all religions have tenets about conversion and if read carefully, most are filled with some crazy ideas. I don't judge a person based on their religion because most do not buy into every single item that their religion espouses.

And this is where you need to understand, in mormonism, it is expected that you follow ALL of the teachings. I know a lot of mormons like to try and say they're not like that and mormonism as a whole is not like that. But it very much is. In order to make it to the Celestial Kingdom in mormonism, you must follow all of the teachings, there is no way around that. Anyone who states otherwise is either kidding themselves or living in a world of serious cog dis.

If Romney showed he actually took steps or openly hinted at a mass conversion then I'd be more worried. However, the LDS is a minority religion which is seen negatively by a majority of people in this country so if anything, I think Mormons has sympathy for minority faiths. Whatever tenets in their church, I feel that Mormon leaders themselves are more religious tolerant than the typical Christian conservative Republican leaders. Case in point, when there was that mosque near Ground Zero controversy a while back, Orrin Hatch, the conservative Mormon Republican broke with his party and openly said he'd support the mosque because he remembered his grandmother talking about being prevented from building a temple because of anti-LDS sentiments. When school prayer was in the news, I read in the Washington Post an article that the LDS church was silent on the issue because they know any school prayer fought and instituted would not be LDS sanctioned as they are a minority faith.

See, the way I see is is this. Regardless of how conservative your belief is, if you are a religious minority and a practical person living in a democratic society, you know any merging of church with gov't will not be with YOUR faith, it will be the faith of the majority of the population.

I also feel that regardless of one's belief system, people don't forget what it's like to be persecuted and tend to be more tolerant of differing religions precisely because they know what it's like to be on the receiving end of such bigotry.

Then can you explain to me why I was taught in church that the Catholic church is the Great Whore of Babylon? Or why my stake president came and gave a talk in my ward about how he likes to laugh at Methodists and people of all other faiths because they only think they know the truth? Why was my stake president making fun of his Methodist co-worker? Also all the mormons I knew hated Muslims and made fun of Jews.

Also mormons aren't against the separation of church and state. They just want to make sure that it's their religious laws that people are following. In young women one day a leader was talking about how great it would be to live in a country that was run by mormonism. However because people have their "free agency" that could never happen. :roll:

And as for mormons being persecuted, that’s a line they like to feed. Most mormons aren’t actively persecuted more than any other faith. As a mormon, I was never “persecuted†per se. Sure people asked me hard questions and let me know that they found my faith a bit odd but that wasn’t a big deal. And from what I’ve come to understand from friends and others living in Utah, mormons do a great deal persecuting nonmembers. Children are isolated and even physically attacked for not being mormon.

Finally on a totally different note, I feel this is totally relevant in the discussion of rape that we've been having lately. It shows that the mormons (at least) have held some horrible beliefs regarding rape and sexual abuse for quite some time. This comes from: Richard G. Scott, Healing the Tragic Scars of Abuse. Conference Talk, Ensign, May 1992.

"The victim must do all in his or her power to stop the abuse. Most often, the victim is innocent because of being disabled by fear or the power or authority of the offender. At some point in time, however, the Lord may prompt a victim to recognize a degree of responsibility for abuse. Your priesthood leader will help assess your responsibility so that, if needed, it can be addressed. Otherwise the seeds of guilt will remain and sprout into bitter fruit. Yet no matter what degree of responsibility, from absolutely none to increasing consent, the healing power of the atonement of Jesus Christ can provide a complete cure."

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Of course religion ONLY becomes an issue when it's a non Christian running for office. :roll:

[bananacat]

Glass Cowcatcher,

Both Mormonism and Catholicism are sects of Christianity.

However, I do think there is a big difference here. Mormonism requires Romney to try to push his religion on everyone else, while Catholicism does not. The Mormon church has a long history of trying to influence politics, most notably with the Prop 8 fiasco where they poured tons of money into a political issue that wasn't even in their own state. I'm as worried about Romney as I was about George W. Bush being an Evangelical. No, Romney won't be successful at turning the entire country into a Mormon country because presidents just don't have that much power. But he would damn well try and he would probably have success at least in a few small areas, especially abortion, healthcare, and education. He wouldn't be successful in banning Mountain Dew or things like that, but he would be successful where his religious beliefs already line up with the general Republican party platform.

[emmiedahl]

Glass Cowcatcher,

Both Mormonism and Catholicism are sects of Christianity.

However, I do think there is a big difference here. Mormonism requires Romney to try to push his religion on everyone else, while Catholicism does not. The Mormon church has a long history of trying to influence politics, most notably with the Prop 8 fiasco where they poured tons of money into a political issue that wasn't even in their own state. I'm as worried about Romney as I was about George W. Bush being an Evangelical. No, Romney won't be successful at turning the entire country into a Mormon country because presidents just don't have that much power. But he would damn well try and he would probably have success at least in a few small areas, especially abortion, healthcare, and education. He wouldn't be successful in banning Mountain Dew or things like that, but he would be successful where his religious beliefs already line up with the general Republican party platform.

I think there is also a difference in that Mormons are expected and held accountable for obeying every single rule, as someone else here noted. I don't know of another mainstream religion that sends people to your home and also enforces tithing at the level that Mormons do.

My husband is Catholic and you can assume with confidence that a Catholic uses birth control and does other things that conflict with Church teachings. I am Reform Jewish and you can safely assume that I do not eat kosher or want to stone rape victims. Mormons are kind of the opposite; if someone is a practicing Mormon, they probably are obeying all the rules or at least publically pretending to do so.

[shedemei]

Both Mormonism and Catholicism are sects of Christianity.

However, I do think there is a big difference here. Mormonism requires Romney to try to push his religion on everyone else, while Catholicism does not.

Currently.

The Mormon church has a long history of trying to influence politics, most notably with the Prop 8 fiasco where they poured tons of money into a political issue that wasn't even in their own state.

Catholics do this with abortion. They pour a lot of money into defeating health care reform in this country over abortion, cloaked behind the rallying cry of religious freedom.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Glass Cowcatcher,

Both Mormonism and Catholicism are sects of Christianity.

However, I do think there is a big difference here. Mormonism requires Romney to try to push his religion on everyone else, while Catholicism does not. The Mormon church has a long history of trying to influence politics, most notably with the Prop 8 fiasco where they poured tons of money into a political issue that wasn't even in their own state. I'm as worried about Romney as I was about George W. Bush being an Evangelical. No, Romney won't be successful at turning the entire country into a Mormon country because presidents just don't have that much power. But he would damn well try and he would probably have success at least in a few small areas, especially abortion, healthcare, and education. He wouldn't be successful in banning Mountain Dew or things like that, but he would be successful where his religious beliefs already line up with the general Republican party platform.

I know Catholics are Christians, I was referring to Romney*.

What I meant is that on the right, at least, hardly a protest was raised in the media when politicians like Bush or Palin invoke Christian prophecy. The connection to how that might affect their term in office was hardly taken seriously. It takes non-Protestants to get the issue looked at seriously.

*The Mormons I know IRL don't want to be called Christians, and the Christians I know don't want to call Mormons Christians, so I Apologize.

[Beeks]

Does anybody have a good link on this fulfilling a prophecy stuff? After some quick googling all I see is that it said mormons will have to be involved in politics to "save the constitution" - but also that the official church stance is that Joseph smith never really said this stuff?

As others have stated, Romney worries me LESS in the religion department primarily because he is a member of a minority religion that has experienced some pretty intense persecution in the not-so-distant past. Most Mormons I know are very gung ho on the whole separation of church and state thing because of that.

[deelaem]

Currently.

Catholics do this with abortion. They pour a lot of money into defeating health care reform in this country over abortion, cloaked behind the rallying cry of religious freedom.

Oh yay! Another Mormon defender! This should be good.

[shedemei]

Oh yay! Another Mormon defender! This should be good.

No, not at all. Either I was not clear or you misread what I wrote. The post I responded to was comparing Mormons and Catholics, and made statements about Catholics that I feel are false. Notice that I was addressing only the statements regarding Catholicism, not the statements about Mormonism (which I agree with). They're both meddling entities that have way too much influence on policy and legislation in the US.

[deelaem]

No, not at all. Either I was not clear or you misread what I wrote. The post I responded to was comparing Mormons and Catholics, and made statements about Catholics that I feel are false. Notice that I was addressing only the statements regarding Catholicism, not the statements about Mormonism (which I agree with). They're both meddling entities that have way too much influence on policy and legislation in the US.

Ah, ok.... It wasn't clear or I wasn't reading it right. mea culpa

[LaydNimue]

When oh when is some respectable media person going to grow some balls and reveal the truth about Romney and his cult? Somebody better do some explain' or in 2016 we'll have a Scientologist and a Hari Krishna running for President & VP against a Branch Davidanite and a Heaven's Gater.

Even most FJ'ers seem to be afraid to call it like it is; The LDS church is a fucked up cult.

Uh-hmm...

What do you think brother Romney's secret name for his wife is? Will he call her into his heaven? What if she pisses him off? Will he still call her secret name then? And since Mormon's accept polygamy in the after-life, how many wives will he seal himself to?

Do you think he wears the magic long john underwear? Does he shower in it? Have sex in it?

Can you guess who *has* seen his tax return?

And why do they send their chauvinistic male children out in suits on bikes to knock on your door?

[deelaem]

When oh when is some respectable media person going to grow some balls and reveal the truth about Romney and his cult? Somebody better do some explain' or in 2016 we'll have a Scientologist and a Hari Krishna running for President & VP against a Branch Davidanite and a Heaven's Gater.

Even most FJ'ers seem to be afraid to call it like it is; The LDS church is a fucked up cult.

Uh-hmm...

What do you think brother Romney's secret name for his wife is? Will he call her into his heaven? What if she pisses him off? Will he still call her secret name then? And since Mormon's accept polygamy in the after-life, how many wives will he seal himself to?

Do you think he wears the magic long john underwear? Does he shower in it? Have sex in it?

Can you guess who *has* seen his tax return?

And why do they send their chauvinistic male children out in suits on bikes to knock on your door?

Not me! I'll shout it loud and clear! :twisted:

[Samantha]

Not me! I'll shout it loud and clear! :twisted:

I second Deelaem,

signed an ex-member who was mentally and emotionally abused to the point of several mental breakdowns.

[Morton Fan]

I second Deelaem,

signed an ex-member who was mentally and emotionally abused to the point of several mental breakdowns.

I'm on Team Deelaem, too!

[WokChop]

I'm on Team Deelaem, too!

What the hell...so am I! Then again, I'm also an ex-Mormon.

Sorry for subjecting you to a cult, Sam. :oops:

[Hane]

The Rock Center episode disappointed me. It didn't begin to touch the nearly two centuries of controversy surrounding the LDS. It was an hour worth of the old "we're clean-cut churchgoers with stricter moral standards than YOU, and maybe there was some stuff with polygamy and racism but that was A LONG TIME AGO so let's change the subject."

It fascinates me that, of all the many sects that arose in the 1800s in America, Mormonism is the only one that took hold. I can wrap my mind around people believing in miracles that happened millennia ago (the parting of the Red Sea, the virgin birth, the resurrection), but how on earth could so many people have fallen for "Oh, an angel appeared to me a few weeks ago and showed me where to find gold plates containing a story about how ancient Hebrews came to America and Jesus Christ appeared there, and, oops, the angel took the gold plates back so, no, I can't show them to you, but you have to believe this because I told you it's true"?

The Book of Mormon is full of stuff that has never held up to archeological examination: horses and steel in the New World, for a couple. Mormon scholars, in recent years, try to explain away things like this by claiming "the book uses that word but means something else." There's a history of the leadership distancing itself from bizarre older teachings and controversial situations. Former Mormons cite all the times they were told weird stuff by the leadership, only to be told later, "I don't know that we teach that." The LDS seems to have an extremely fluid theology: the faithful are told that the revelations of each new Prophet (leader of the entire church) supersede those of all previous Prophets. Thus, it gets hard to nail down the church's position on the more colorful elements of the Mormon mythos.

(I'm limiting my comments to Mormonism here--don't get me started on Catholicism, my religion of origin, or I'll be typing for the next week.)

[clarinetpower]

"Oh, an angel appeared to me a few weeks ago and showed me where to find gold plates containing a story about how ancient Hebrews came to America and Jesus Christ appeared there, and, oops, the angel took the gold plates back so, no, I can't show them to you, but you have to believe this because I told you it's true"?

Ooo! Ooo! Mr. Kotter, don't forget the "I found a magic rock and put it in my hat and then stuck my face in my hat and MAGICALLY translated the plates I couldn't see! And you can't have coffee. Or hot tea. But hot cocoa is OK. DON'T ASK ME WHY JUST CAUSE GEEEEEEZZZ PERSECUTION!!! Now drink your orange soda, keep sweet, and shut your mouth or we'll visit your house and pressure you until you do what we want anyway."

Sorry, Big Love got me a little obsessed with the learning. (And I've always loved Horshack, may he RIP.)

[sarahbrownie]

Former Mormons cite all the times they were told weird stuff by the leadership, only to be told later, "I don't know that we teach that."

Ugh. This happened to me. I told another Mormon why I would never respect the church because they believe that Native Americans are descendants of the ebil Lehi and the "lost" tribe of Israel. Which, I found crazy and really disrespectful of Native Americans.

Her response? "I don't know. What are the Lamanites? Do other Christians believe that?"

I was like DUDE, it's in the Book of Mormon, you idiot.

Either they don't even know about the theology of her own church or they just don't admit their own crazy.

[deelaem]

Ugh. This happened to me. I told another Mormon why I would never respect the church because they believe that Native Americans are descendants of the ebil Lehi and the "lost" tribe of Israel. Which, I found crazy and really disrespectful of Native Americans.

Her response? "I don't know. What are the Lamanites? Do other Christians believe that?"

I was like DUDE, it's in the Book of Mormon, you idiot.

Either they don't even know about the theology of her own church or they just don't admit their own crazy.

On the nose! They are taught to never get into a debate about their religion, because you don't cast your pearls before swine, etc. Still more cult mentality.

I have seen this in my poor sweet sister who is now doing time in Nauvoo, the Mormon mecca. She's becoming dangerously thin and is swimming in a soup of martyrs. It's so hard for me to watch.

[countressrascal]

All the shows on Mormonism has sugar coated it, nothing was said about the Gay reprograming project at BYU, on why they finally in early 70's allowed blacks to have leadership positions in the church or that the church are involved defeating Gay Marriage in CA. I agree with everyone about it being a cult- let's look at the proof someone tells you what underwear to wear, you get a secret name once you are become Temple worthy, they review your tax returns and make you donate 10% of your gross income, hound your family to get you back to the church after you leave should I go on. It is a cult pure and simple.

[SamuraiKatz]

DH and I talking about this a few nights ago -- We were brought up conservative SDA and I am sure that many of the older folks in my childhood church would be frightened about an LDS as POTUS because of the threat of a National Sunday Law (anyone get those black/white/red tracts on their door???) but would still be supportive because 1) he's republican and 2) it might move us towards the End Times .

Ah Yes, the National Sunday Law books...from Jan Marcussen. The Bible studies from Steps to Life.... I'm former SDA as well. Kinda hard to stop the "Great Controversy" memes running through my head and I've been out for 18 years. Have trouble not associating healthy eating with matters of salvation too...

Not about to be pro-mittens or any heavily promoted religious candidate. The thought of a theocratic turn in US policy/public discourse is scary.

;) I know I'm headed straight to hell...I had bacon for breakfast...and I enjoyed it immensely.

[freejoytoo]

Not me! I'll shout it loud and clear! :twisted:

Cosigned. I like reading exmormon.org from time to time and the crazy just multiplies.

[formergothardite]

Yep, it is a cult just like ATI.

[freejoytoo]

I had an argument about this with my dad. He said it's a sect like Catholicism. I'm not denying that Catholicism is equally filled with misogyny and general crazy but at least it wasn't made up by a conman who read the 'texts' out of a hat with a stone. I don't understand why Mormonism seems to earn respect because the people are 'nice'. I'm sure they are nice but they're still following a fucking cult.