Michelle Says Josie Is Normal

[PennySycamore]

This can't be a good thing:

"She is probably my strongest toddler I've ever had -- both in physical strength and determination. She's a little spitfire...."

It's not a good thing to be determined in that house... or is it? :think:

No, that's not a good thing. The excess of physical strength may be a sign of hypertonicity which is a developmental disability. I think it's fairly common in premies. (Low muscle tone can also be an issue.) Premies can become hypertonic due to all the negative input they get to their bodies especially their face.

[emmiedahl]

Granted, I do not really watch the show. But in online materials, Josie seems to be about the same developmental level as my 22 month old. My little guy is a bit delayed and about to start about 8000 different kinds of early intervention--he is probably just a slow developer, so it's not a huge deal, we just want to get him talking and eating and doing fine motor things.

Michelle seems so determined to gloss things over. Like, if she pretends it is okay, it must be totally okay! Very Victorian thinking. My older brother was a micro-preemie and has lifelong physical effects. I was a mere preemie and had pulmonary issues for most of my childhood. My mother really had a lot to deal with, but ignoring the problems and insisting we were okay would not have helped us.

[thoughtful]

Granted, I do not really watch the show. But in online materials, Josie seems to be about the same developmental level as my 22 month old. My little guy is a bit delayed and about to start about 8000 different kinds of early intervention--he is probably just a slow developer, so it's not a huge deal, we just want to get him talking and eating and doing fine motor things.

Michelle seems so determined to gloss things over. Like, if she pretends it is okay, it must be totally okay! Very Victorian thinking. My older brother was a micro-preemie and has lifelong physical effects. I was a mere preemie and had pulmonary issues for most of my childhood. My mother really had a lot to deal with, but ignoring the problems and insisting we were okay would not have helped us.

Well, we all know that Michelle doesn't want to help them -- she just wants to count them.

:(

[3 is enough]

Michelle wouldn't know "normal" if it came and hit her on the head. As long as Josie can walk and say "Jesus loves me", it's all good. Cognitive delays or learning disabilities are not even on her radar. Let's face it, the SOTDRT education the Duggars provide their kids leaves them borderline illiterate anyhow. If Josie struggles, no one will even notice.

[gustava]

No, that's not a good thing. The excess of physical strength may be a sign of hypertonicity which is a developmental disability. I think it's fairly common in premies. (Low muscle tone can also be an issue.) Premies can become hypertonic due to all the negative input they get to their bodies especially their face.

Good point about possible hypertonicity.

[Miggy]

Just had a thought about why Josie might be Michelle's "spitfire";

We all agree Jennifer and Jordyn were neglected, right? Their sisters and brothers met physical needs, such as Justin making cold oatmeal for Jordyn, but neither girl received as much emotional care as they would in a smaller family. A normal child when hurt will cry and know that someone will come to their aid. These girls know that if they are hurt, they should go and find their buddy. How often did people sit down with these girls and read a book? Play a game? Just talk? We don't know but I suspect they were often left to entertain themselves or each other. Lack of emotional care usually leaves kids behind socially and emotionally.

Josie, in contrast, had a huge amount of emotional care in the first 12-18 months of life from Michelle. (Wow, from her mother, not a sibling.) Michelle at her bedside in the hospital talking and singing to her. Michelle shutting herself away upstairs with Josie due to the need to isolate but resulting in lots of one-on-one time. Josie being left at home with one sibling while the rest of the family go out meant even more one-on-one time. I think they also pay a bit more attention to what Josie eats.

So Josie might have started with a three month disadvantage but she has had a lot more attention from birth since her sisters. We notice that Josie seems behind but look at the others. Jennifer and Jordyn are definately behind where my kids were at those age. Maybe Michelle's comments about how well she is doing, how spirited she is and how strong she is are all a comparison to the Lost Girls, who themselves are behind.

[Witsec7]

Michelle shutting herself away upstairs with Josie due to the need to isolate but resulting in lots of one-on-one time.

Huh?

[Peas n carrots]

Just had a thought about why Josie might be Michelle's "spitfire";

We all agree Jennifer and Jordyn were neglected, right? Their sisters and brothers met physical needs, such as Justin making cold oatmeal for Jordyn, but neither girl received as much emotional care as they would in a smaller family. A normal child when hurt will cry and know that someone will come to their aid. These girls know that if they are hurt, they should go and find their buddy. How often did people sit down with these girls and read a book? Play a game? Just talk? We don't know but I suspect they were often left to entertain themselves or each other. Lack of emotional care usually leaves kids behind socially and emotionally.

Josie, in contrast, had a huge amount of emotional care in the first 12-18 months of life from Michelle. (Wow, from her mother, not a sibling.) Michelle at her bedside in the hospital talking and singing to her. Michelle shutting herself away upstairs with Josie due to the need to isolate but resulting in lots of one-on-one time. Josie being left at home with one sibling while the rest of the family go out meant even more one-on-one time. I think they also pay a bit more attention to what Josie eats.

So Josie might have started with a three month disadvantage but she has had a lot more attention from birth since her sisters. We notice that Josie seems behind but look at the others. Jennifer and Jordyn are definately behind where my kids were at those age. Maybe Michelle's comments about how well she is doing, how spirited she is and how strong she is are all a comparison to the Lost Girls, who themselves are behind.

I would be surprised Michelle could even know enough about Jennifer & Jordan to be able to compare. But I think you do have a good point with Josie receiving far more attention than the two older sisters. At least the mullet interacts to some extent with Josie.

Riffles

[Miggy]

Huh?

Sorry, I didn't express that to clearly. We have footage of Michelle sitting in a chair feeding Josie at both the Little Rock house and TTH. She is looking at her, talking to her and the other kids aren't around. That is something she didn't do with the other kids. Think of Jordyn being fed under that blanket while Michelle was on the parade or visiting the school. Josie was kept upstairs for months after they returned to TTH and I think this forced Michelle to actually spend time interacting with her.

Does that make more sense?

[Kitty]

Sorry, I didn't express that to clearly. We have footage of Michelle sitting in a chair feeding Josie at both the Little Rock house and TTH. She is looking at her, talking to her and the other kids aren't around. That is something she didn't do with the other kids. Think of Jordyn being fed under that blanket while Michelle was on the parade or visiting the school. Josie was kept upstairs for months after they returned to TTH and I think this forced Michelle to actually spend time interacting with her.

Does that make more sense?

I remember Michelle saying that herself, that she was always alone with Josie and didn't know it was possible to bond that way, or something. Yes, after 18 other kids, she only bonded with Josie (and probably Josh).

So yeah, Josie is talking and can pass off as normal (a wee bit behind, but not so far behind that it's obvious) because Michelle held her, played with her, fed her, talked to her, paid attention to her, and probably why a lot of people think Jordyn and Jennifer are so much younger than they really are.

[sableduck]

I have a sister who was about as premature as Josie was(around 23/24 weeks). THe doctors told my parents the same thing--that around 2 she would catch up to her peers. She didn't catch up completely, but the doctors weren't concerned as there was no research on micropreemies back then. The extent of her disabilities really wasn't apparent until she was in early adolescence and my mom was pushing the school(she was homeschooled but receiving special services through the school) to find a diagnosis. Eventually they came up with Asperger's and Cerebal Palsy. So what I'm saying is that even if Josie appears to be catching up now, with micropreemies, you never know what's going to show up later on.

[SeaSaltCaramel]

Just had a thought about why Josie might be Michelle's "spitfire";

We all agree Jennifer and Jordyn were neglected, right? Their sisters and brothers met physical needs, such as Justin making cold oatmeal for Jordyn, but neither girl received as much emotional care as they would in a smaller family. A normal child when hurt will cry and know that someone will come to their aid. These girls know that if they are hurt, they should go and find their buddy. How often did people sit down with these girls and read a book? Play a game? Just talk? We don't know but I suspect they were often left to entertain themselves or each other. Lack of emotional care usually leaves kids behind socially and emotionally.

Josie, in contrast, had a huge amount of emotional care in the first 12-18 months of life from Michelle. (Wow, from her mother, not a sibling.) Michelle at her bedside in the hospital talking and singing to her. Michelle shutting herself away upstairs with Josie due to the need to isolate but resulting in lots of one-on-one time. Josie being left at home with one sibling while the rest of the family go out meant even more one-on-one time. I think they also pay a bit more attention to what Josie eats.

So Josie might have started with a three month disadvantage but she has had a lot more attention from birth since her sisters. We notice that Josie seems behind but look at the others. Jennifer and Jordyn are definately behind where my kids were at those age. Maybe Michelle's comments about how well she is doing, how spirited she is and how strong she is are all a comparison to the Lost Girls, who themselves are behind.

I hadn't thought of Josie being "all caught up" as related to Jenny and Jordyn. It does make a lot of sense that since Mullet spent very little time bonding with them, Josie seems more advanced by default of more one-on-one time. Josie's not all that exceptional as Jenny and Jordyn are lacking in parental attention. I read an article written by a pediatrician a few months back on the effects of attending to babies/toddlers cries. It showed where the results of a study found the kids whose parents attended to their cries and didn't let them "cry it out" were more secure as they got older than the other kids. I know there's a fine line between coddling and attending to cries, but I was intrigued by the idea proposed.

[LadyBlue]

I hadn't thought of Josie being "all caught up" as related to Jenny and Jordyn. It does make a lot of sense that since Mullet spent very little time bonding with them, Josie seems more advanced by default of more one-on-one time. Josie's not all that exceptional as Jenny and Jordyn are lacking in parental attention. I read an article written by a pediatrician a few months back on the effects of attending to babies/toddlers cries. It showed where the results of a study found the kids whose parents attended to their cries and didn't let them "cry it out" were more secure as they got older than the other kids. I know there's a fine line between coddling and attending to cries, but I was intrigued by the idea proposed.

For infants, there really is no line. They cry because they need something.

This conversation makes me think of the Romanian orphans and their delays & problems with attachment, all due to lack of physical (& emotional) attachment to their caregivers. Jennifer & Jordyn seem to be similar, just to a lesser extent. Pretty pathetic the "Mother of the Year" has kids which remind me of Romanian orphans from a couple decades ago.

[Gil]

I have a sister who was about as premature as Josie was(around 23/24 weeks). THe doctors told my parents the same thing--that around 2 she would catch up to her peers. She didn't catch up completely, but the doctors weren't concerned as there was no research on micropreemies back then. The extent of her disabilities really wasn't apparent until she was in early adolescence and my mom was pushing the school(she was homeschooled but receiving special services through the school) to find a diagnosis. Eventually they came up with Asperger's and Cerebal Palsy. So what I'm saying is that even if Josie appears to be catching up now, with micropreemies, you never know what's going to show up later on.

I could have written some of this -- I have an autism spectrum older sister born around 23 weeks. She has a lot of issues now that I think some of the early interventions available now could have helped with. She was in public school so there were some professionals there to help her with skills and monitor her issues -- they'll never be there for Josie. :(

[SeaSaltCaramel]

For infants, there really is no line. They cry because they need something.

This conversation makes me think of the Romanian orphans and their delays & problems with attachment, all due to lack of physical (& emotional) attachment to their caregivers. Jennifer & Jordyn seem to be similar, just to a lesser extent. Pretty pathetic the "Mother of the Year" has kids which remind me of Romanian orphans from a couple decades ago.

Yes, they really do. Like they are somewhat detached emotionally/socially because the further down in birth order the J kids are, the less parent bonding they receive. I remember the story about a psych experiment with the caregivers not interacting with the babies, and then half of them died for no physical reason since they were all healthy. It's still amazes me how much information remains in general circulation about letting babies cry because it's "good for their lungs" and other nonsense. Funny comparison, but this actually reminded me of how the hospital where I worked handled patient call bells. They taught us that if whenever we came in to provide therapy or give medication etc. to always offer if there was anything else we could do for them before we left. By doing this, we actually reduced the number of patient call bells overall. In other words, the patients felt secure in knowing we were there for them (not ignoring them) so they didn't feel the need to frequently call for whatever need, and the nurses/RT's could be more efficient in overall patient care. It only makes sense that this goes back to babies and their parents :)

[boysmom]

Josie is likely to have some learning disabilities/cognitive delays that won't be apparent until she's older. It's a rare child born that early who has no developmental problems. Michelle is definitely in denial if she's convinced that there's no issues and never will be. For one, Josie should have had early intervention in the home. I've never heard that she had anything, does anyone know if I'm wrong?

[Coconut Flan]

Statistically Josie has about a 40% chance of no major health concerns or disabilities and a near to that chance of a mild to moderate disability such as asthma, mild CP, or a learning problem. She seems to have missed the 25 to 30% chance of a major disability. The outcomes for these tiny babies are much better than they were even ten years ago.

[DarkAnts]

Yes, they really do. Like they are somewhat detached emotionally/socially because the further down in birth order the J kids are, the less parent bonding they receive. I remember the story about a psych experiment with the caregivers not interacting with the babies, and then half of them died for no physical reason since they were all healthy. It's still amazes me how much information remains in general circulation about letting babies cry because it's "good for their lungs" and other nonsense. Funny comparison, but this actually reminded me of how the hospital where I worked handled patient call bells. They taught us that if whenever we came in to provide therapy or give medication etc. to always offer if there was anything else we could do for them before we left. By doing this, we actually reduced the number of patient call bells overall. In other words, the patients felt secure in knowing we were there for them (not ignoring them) so they didn't feel the need to frequently call for whatever need, and the nurses/RT's could be more efficient in overall patient care. It only makes sense that this goes back to babies and their parents :)

There is a normal period of crying called purple crying. It starts at about 2 weeks and often goes on until 3-4 months. Its a normal development phase. You should attend to your child during this time but understand that sometimes, they may not stop crying. Sometimes they dont cry for any reason. Its not because they are selfish, in pain or sick, its because they are babies and going through a developmental phase. You should of talk to your doctor if you have concerns but know that sometimes babies just cry. Try to sooth them. Let them know that you are there to comfort them and take care of them. The baby will grow out of the phase.

[LadyBlue]

There is a normal period of crying called purple crying. It starts at about 2 weeks and often goes on until 3-4 months. Its a normal development phase. You should attend to your child during this time but understand that sometimes, they may not stop crying. Sometimes they dont cry for any reason. Its not because they are selfish, in pain or sick, its because they are babies and going through a developmental phase. You should of talk to your doctor if you have concerns but know that sometimes babies just cry. Try to sooth them. Let them know that you are there to comfort them and take care of them. The baby will grow out of the phase.

It may be common, but I wouldn't call it a developmental phase. None of my kids ever had anything like it. The worst we had was my eldest had one brief period where he spent the better part of 36 hours or so crying, plus the occasional nights when it took a couple hours to get him to sleep. My second and third both had a week or 2 between 6-8 weeks where they were inconsolable from 2-5am or so. I just put them in the baby carrier and paced around the apartment, occasionally trying to see if nursing would help, until they finally calmed down. My 4th is going through a grumpy period at night lately (he's 6 1/2 months, though) where he cries a lot and is generally miserable. Hoping the teeth he's been working on since 6 weeks are finally coming through.

That's really interesting about the patient bells and how they use them less often if they're asked more about needing help before someone leaves. If you haven't read any attachment parenting stuff, you might find it interesting. Basically, babies who have their cries responded to, contrary to popular belief, are more independent and less clingy as toddlers and older children than those who were left to "cry it out" or "self soothe". There's also some newer research showing that babies and toddlers are utterly incapable of self-soothing. They learn how to soothe themselves by having their cries responded to promptly and lovingly and very gradually gain the ability to calm themselves.

Edited to add last paragraph & fix typos

[Miggy]

One area Josie definately hasn't caught up: she still has that "premi" look. I don't mean that in a nasty way, it is just an observation. There is something about the shape of the face/head in kids that were born early that they don't seem to loose until about 8-10. I doubt most parents really notice this as they see their child every day and just accept what they see. As a teacher, I see a few premi kids go through that still look different. I am sure there are plenty I don't notice. Josie is one I would notice.

[SeaSaltCaramel]

That's really interesting about the patient bells and how they use them less often if they're asked more about needing help before someone leaves. If you haven't read any attachment parenting stuff, you might find it interesting. Basically, babies who have their cries responded to, contrary to popular belief, are more independent and less clingy as toddlers and older children than those who were left to "cry it out" or "self soothe". There's also some newer research showing that babies and toddlers are utterly incapable of self-soothing. They learn how to soothe themselves by having their cries responded to promptly and lovingly and very gradually gain the ability to calm themselves.

Haha, I couldn't think of "attachment parenting" and "self soothe" last night to save my soul. That's what I get for posting when I'm that tired! I used to be of the "self soothe" camp, but when I had my daughter, she definitely demanded my attention more than my son did during his baby days. As a result I realized that did more research on the matter and found out about attachment parenting (not to the degree of breast-feeding a 4year old etc). She is still intense emotionally, but I can logically explain the situation to her and she calms down quickly for the most part. I've really enjoyed learning about this. I know like anyone who has kids, you have to be two steps ahead of the game. Are there any particular references you know of that are more helpful than others?

[FlorenceHamilton]

My children are all grown up. I was not a perfect parent and made my share of mistakes. Each of my three were a little bit different. I tried do respond to them individually. (Even though two of them were identical twins.) It occurs to me that I did have a line when it came to attending to their cries. The line was me. After I was certain their physical needs were attended to, I continued to attend to theor cries until I felt that i was too frazzled to be a comfort. At that point, I made the decision to let them cry for a few minutes until I composed myself.

I just thought I would share.

[PennySycamore]

It may be common, but I wouldn't call it a developmental phase. None of my kids ever had anything like it. The worst we had was my eldest had one brief period where he spent the better part of 36 hours or so crying, plus the occasional nights when it took a couple hours to get him to sleep. My second and third both had a week or 2 between 6-8 weeks where they were inconsolable from 2-5am or so. I just put them in the baby carrier and paced around the apartment, occasionally trying to see if nursing would help, until they finally calmed down. My 4th is going through a grumpy period at night lately (he's 6 1/2 months, though) where he cries a lot and is generally miserable. Hoping the teeth he's been working on since 6 weeks are finally coming through.

That's really interesting about the patient bells and how they use them less often if they're asked more about needing help before someone leaves. If you haven't read any attachment parenting stuff, you might find it interesting. Basically, babies who have their cries responded to, contrary to popular belief, are more independent and less clingy as toddlers and older children than those who were left to "cry it out" or "self soothe". There's also some newer research showing that babies and toddlers are utterly incapable of self-soothing. They learn how to soothe themselves by having their cries responded to promptly and lovingly and very gradually gain the ability to calm themselves.

Edited to add last paragraph & fix typos

I've never heard of "purple crying". I don't see it as a developmental phase either. Sometimes babies are just plain fussy at times, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't try to figure out what's making them miserable. Dr Sears did say, though, inThe Fussy Baby that sometimes when the baby is having a fussy period and nothing seems to help, the mom should take feel free to take a short break and do something like play the piano for few minutes. (IIRC, it was play the piano LOUD!) Some babies may fuss quietly for a few minutes as they settle to sleep, but it is not hard crying.

The research that babies whose cries are attended to are more secure as they grow older has been around for 20 or 30 years. (There's also research that carrying [wearing] the baby leads to more secure attachment and less crying.) Dr T Berry Brazelton noted that he saw almost no crying among infants in Central America where the infants were carried in a sling almost constantly. One study conducted in the 80s in a New York hospital gave one group of mothers a baby carrier (an old type Snugli) with instruction to wear their baby a few hours a day while another group of mothers did not get a carrier. The babies who were carried cried much less and were more secure.

There is some fairly recent research that shows that crying increases the infant's cortisol levels.

As child psychologist Dr Lee Salk used to say "If crying is good for the lungs, then bleeding is good for the veins."

[EmmieJ]

It's still amazes me how much information remains in general circulation about letting babies cry because it's "good for their lungs" and other nonsense.

I was unable to let my son "cry it out" when he was an infant. When he cried, I went to see what he needed. I'd rather have interrupted sleep than feel like an ogre. To me, letting them cry until they give up teaches them that they can't fully rely on mom (or whatever parental unit is their primary care giver) to be there for them. Why is it wrong to give babies unconditional love and be there for them at least during the first year of their life?

I strongly disagree with the way Michelle shuttles off her freshly weaned young ones into the girls' bedroom, but maybe there they at least take comfort in sleeping next to their siblings. Still, there is a striking lack of casual affection in the Duggar household. I think the Duggar children learn early that crying will be ignored, and even when you are seriously hurt, your mom doesn't give a shit.

[Ajaminor]

My children are all grown up. I was not a perfect parent and made my share of mistakes. Each of my three were a little bit different. I tried do respond to them individually. (Even though two of them were identical twins.) It occurs to me that I did have a line when it came to attending to their cries. The line was me. After I was certain their physical needs were attended to, I continued to attend to theor cries until I felt that i was too frazzled to be a comfort. At that point, I made the decision to let them cry for a few minutes until I composed myself.

I just thought I would share.

I'm willing to bet that even the most "attachment" parent does this - at least I know I have. Better to catch your breath and calm yourself and then return to the baby. A tense frustrated mother, I think, is sensed by the infant and only ups the situation in a not-good way. JMHO, of course.

And Michelle has to say Josie is "normal" - how else could she possibly be "joyful" in getting pregnant (yet again) with yet another "blessing"?

Some people need their heads examined. (Again JMHO, of course).