Submission= Passive agressiveness

[AtroposHeart]

If he is asking you what restaurant you want to go to – tell him politely and respectfully where you would prefer to go. If he is talking with you about moving or y’all are discussing having another child or home schooling or private school or changing churches or buying a major purchase – then you tell him your feelings and desires, but if you cannot agree – you can tell him, “You know that I believe we should do X, but I trust you to make the best decision for our family. I know you are accountable to God for this and I trust you to do what is best for us.â€

http://peacefulwifeDOTcom/2012/08/11/ro ... -archives/

[thoughtful]

"No pressure, dear, just remember you are ACCOUNTABLE TO GOD."

:lol:

[Imora]

http://peacefulwifeDOTcom/2012/08/11/ro ... -archives/

Just changed that a little...

[Deleted07]

Love it Imora, my version would be "well if you're not going to listen, don't come crying to me when it doesn't work out, because all I can do then is say I told ya so!" lol... I actually have a brother like this, asks everyone's opinions on what to do, gets good advice, then of course goes and does what he wants anyway and wonders why he gets himself into bad situations.

[Dixiebelle]

This is just sad to me...

- Being an identical twin and constantly talking to my twin sister about every single thought and feeling I had all day long was not the best preparation for marriage! A husband is NOT a twin sister!

it's true that a husband is not a twin sister, just like a husband is not a girlfriend, but it's really sad to me to think that if she had identical twins she would discourage their relationship. That would be so cruel.

[lilah]

Yup and if he makes a decion you don't agree with you get to be a martyr and pray to jesus for the strength to persevere.

My husband I recently bought a house after months of looking.there were times when I liked a house but he did not and vice versa. If we had a patriarchal house I'd be stuck with a house i did not want. But because we have an egalitarian marriage we compromised to find a house we both love

[wtfrenchtoast]

My thing with the women who encourage submission is how they try and get you to believe that submission is somehow better. Like this one.

You actually get to have MORE power when you respect your husband because when he feels respected – he will CARE DEEPLY about your feelings and desires!

So you see, ladies? By submitting, you actually get MORE power than your husband! So really women are coming out on top after all! It's like they're taking what they think feminism tries to do, put women above men, and they're twisting it to their beliefs. Submitting makes you powerful! Submitting makes you strong! Submitting makes you free! But then any time anyone else proposes something that truly makes women stronger or more free, that's evil feminism talking. I don't get it.

[Imora]

Love it Imora, my version would be "well if you're not going to listen, don't come crying to me when it doesn't work out, because all I can do then is say I told ya so!" lol... I actually have a brother like this, asks everyone's opinions on what to do, gets good advice, then of course goes and does what he wants anyway and wonders why he gets himself into bad situations.

Ahhh yes the old please advise me even though I won't take it... I have a friend (well, work colleague) like that. Sometimes tempting to give her ridiculous advice just for a laugh because I know she will do what she wants anyway.

But seriously - Oh The Martyrdom! On a rare occasion I have played the martyr with my husband because I know I will end up getting what I want because he will feel bad, teehee ;) . So maybe it does end up giving me power! Oh except of course in the patriarchy they would never 'feel bad' because they aren't equals.

[Witsec7]

So you see, ladies? By submitting, you actually get MORE power than your husband!

Topping from the bottom :lol:

[2xx1xy1JD]

I'm happy to report that I do the exact opposite in my marriage.

If my husband asks my advice on an issue, and I'm truly fine with whatever decision he makes, I'll say "it's up to you." Sometimes, I'll really need to tell him that whatever he chooses is REALLY fine with me, and that he can trust me.

OTOH, if the decision affects me and I have strong opinions, then OF COURSE I'm going to make my POV known, and will NOT leave it up to him. I think that big decisions like moving or having another child have to be mutual, and that it would be hugely selfish for either spouse to force a decision on the other. My husband would certainly not need me being silent and resentful for years after a decision was made. When we make a decision, even if you idea originally came from him, he needs to know that I'm 100% on board once I say "I agree". At that point, it's not my decision or his decision - it is OUR decision, and we are in it together. It took us years to decide to buy our current house, but ultimately that was the right decision. There were challenges along the way, such as a massive renovation that had us living in our inlaws' basement and maxing out our financing. When hubby wondered, "what did we get ourselves into?", I wasn't saying "told you so". I was able to say, "this is what we both wanted, it's what we planned for and we know that it's the right move for us."

It is precisely because there are times that I put my foot down that my husband knows that he can trust that my agreement is genuine when I give it.

Also - my husband actually wants my input. He didn't marry a passive-aggressive doormat.

[Imora]

I'm happy to report that I do the exact opposite in my marriage.

If my husband asks my advice on an issue, and I'm truly fine with whatever decision he makes, I'll say "it's up to you." Sometimes, I'll really need to tell him that whatever he chooses is REALLY fine with me, and that he can trust me.

OTOH, if the decision affects me and I have strong opinions, then OF COURSE I'm going to make my POV known, and will NOT leave it up to him. I think that big decisions like moving or having another child have to be mutual, and that it would be hugely selfish for either spouse to force a decision on the other. My husband would certainly not need me being silent and resentful for years after a decision was made. When we make a decision, even if you idea originally came from him, he needs to know that I'm 100% on board once I say "I agree". At that point, it's not my decision or his decision - it is OUR decision, and we are in it together. It took us years to decide to buy our current house, but ultimately that was the right decision. There were challenges along the way, such as a massive renovation that had us living in our inlaws' basement and maxing out our financing. When hubby wondered, "what did we get ourselves into?", I wasn't saying "told you so". I was able to say, "this is what we both wanted, it's what we planned for and we know that it's the right move for us."

It is precisely because there are times that I put my foot down that my husband knows that he can trust that my agreement is genuine when I give it.

Also - my husband actually wants my input. He didn't marry a passive-aggressive doormat.

My husband wants my input and often would rather defer to my opinion even if it differs from his because he SHOCK HORROR believes I am more knowledgeable on that subject.

[luckystone]

http://peacefulwifeDOTcom/2012/08/11/ro ... -archives/

That is so passive aggressive and sounds like a recipe for disaster to me! She thinks this makes wonderful marriages?

[patsymae]

Well, it still makes sense if your mindest is the 1950a-- look at Lucy and Desi. No question that the man is in charge of the house. No question that the woman manipulates to get what she wants. Or big fat greek wedding: "THe man is the head, but the neck can make the head turn anyone it wants to.

Accept a headship and also figure out how to manipulate.

[crassy]

My husband wants my input and often would rather defer to my opinion even if it differs from his because he SHOCK HORROR believes I am more knowledgeable on that subject.

My husband can't make decisions for shit. He has serious anxiety issues so having to make up his mind on the spot just doesn't work for him. He is also completely inept at money handling, and getting shit done. If I had brain damage and decided to go fundie we would be living on the street in a box eating noodles with baked beans. Everything gets deferred to me because he just isn't capable of doing it.

[lilith]

My partner and I have chosen a power exchange relationship in which I am submissive. It's totally unrelated to religion (neither of us are believers) and it works for us.

If he asks my opinion on something it is because he wants my opinion, and he would not be at all happy with passive aggressive evasiveness. Valuing ones partners opinions and input has nothing to do with wether that partner is submissive.

In my view very few of these fundie wives are actually submissive and fulfilled as such. Most of them are passive aggressive, "topping from the bottom" as experiencedd put it, and trying to manipulate their husbands while still staying within the prescribed behaviors of a proper "Titus 2 woman". For which I don't blame them - just as I would find it hell to be the dominant partner in a relationship, I imagine it would be awful to be forced into a submissive role if that role wasn't natural to you, and I am sure many men find the expectation placed on them to be the dominant leader difficult to live up to too.

[MamaJunebug]

...In my view very few of these fundie wives are actually submissive and fulfilled as such. Most of them are passive aggressive, "topping from the bottom" as experiencedd put it, and trying to manipulate their husbands while still staying within the prescribed behaviors of a proper "Titus 2 woman". For which I don't blame them - just as I would find it hell to be the dominant partner in a relationship, I imagine it would be awful to be forced into a submissive role if that role wasn't natural to you, and I am sure many men find the expectation placed on them to be the dominant leader difficult to live up to too.

We've seen that in Vyckie Garrison's experience, no? And in other families where the wife has decided that the complementarian-domination model is the right one, and has foisted it on the family through whatever means, and the results are ... yeah, not so good.

Curiously, reading about women who willingly cede all decision-making power to their husbands has been helpful in my very flawed marriage. Pretty simply, I ask myeslf, "how important is it?" if a question is before me/us where we don't automatically agree.

Where to go to dine out? If I really don't have a yen for something in particular, he can decide. Whether he's to take a weekend away? Unless there's soemthing I really need him to stay in town for, I encourage him to go enjoy himself. (He still WOH, I'm retired and footloose pretty much 24/7)

Whether to keep the house tidy or in disarray? .... Turns out that is important to me. I was a slob when we married, but I've changed over the centuries decades. He doesn't like it and he yells about it, and I tell him to turn it down. It's the way it's going to be for my mental health.

Whether to take out a HELOC for some optional updating on the house (as opposed to necessary renovations)? ... Turns out that he seems to feel as though he's got say in other areas, and it's incredibly important to me, and we made the decision: yes.

Is this manipulative? I say yes, and why not? (ETA: to manipulate is to move things around so that they work.) Is it passive-aggressive? In our case, no. Ceding decision-making power in one situation or another is simply a way of life. His leaving clutter around, that's passive-aggressive. *snarl*

My point is (and I apologize for the long description of ME and my situation), this good balance and healthier-than-ever situation would not have been achieved if I - emulating Teri Maxwell - had given over decision-making power in every second of my married life.

I strongly suspect that those who tout the complementarian/husband-dominant lifestyle as blissfully god-pleasing are kidding us, not to mention themselves. We can appear to be anything we want on teh interwebz.

[2xx1xy1JD]

We don't make every single decision together. There are areas where we simply trust each other, giving just general updates (like with our professional lives). Sometimes, one of us doesn't have a strong opinion, and delegates the decision. Sometimes, the decision will be delegated along with an explicit understanding about responsibility (eg. hubby cares much more than I do about hockey and soccer, so he committed to being in charge of these activities.) I don't see anything manipulative about it.

In some cases, I am willing to accept that he will spend X amount of money as he wishes, or have X amount of time, and I decide not to question at all what he does with his time or money within these limits, since I know that he otherwise dedicates his time and money to the family. Since I've said ok, I don't expect to be further consulted, I don't really offer much of an opinion and I wouldn't sulk about his decisions.

In other cases, I have strong feelings, and I'm affected by the decision. I'd rather be perfectly clear up front, so my hubby knows exactly where I stand, than pretend to agree while giving digs and guilt trips. If I'm popping out a baby, or moving my home, or homeschooling my kids - that affects me! How on earth can you make a decent decision on these things in a healthy relationship without both being on board?

[emmiedahl]

With decision-making power comes accountability. She even says that her husband is accountable to God for the outcome. But we are all accountable. If the husband wants to make a poor financial decision and the wife remains submissive, she is still 50% responsible because she withheld input that might have led to a better outcome.

Part of this comes from the way these girls are raised. My children begin making decisions at an early age and learn to deal with the consequences. I increase their decision-making power as they get older. My teenager is pretty much autonomous when it comes to making life decisions. I give input, but I do not force him to obey me unless we are talking about safety or extremely destructive behavior. I would put my foot down if he wanted to drop out of school, but I did not make him take AP Physics his junior year even though it would have been the better life decision in my opinion. A fundie daughter is never allowed to make even the simplest decisions. Their clothing, food, education, hobbies are all chosen for them. Of course this woman feels uncomfortable having a final say in huge decisions. She is just getting used to deciding what type of fruit to buy at the supermarket.

There is no escaping human emotion. I am sure that these passive, submissive wives still have a great deal of anger at their spouse when they are forced to live with the consequences of a decision they did not agree with. Unilateral decisions should be reserved for issues that disproportionately affect one spouse. There are some decisions I make myself, with very little input from my husband. And if I make the wrong decision, it is totally on me. But for the most part, we consult each other and come to a mutually agreeable compromise.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I have a relative who was raised in a controlling and patriarchal (although not fundie) environment, and as a woman in her early 60s, she is STILL struggling with the idea that she can make decisions. Financial matters were simply for her husband to dictate - even though her consent was legally required to access funds, even though he was clearly suffering from a gambling addiction and making crazy decisions, and even though these decisions clearly affected her.

We'll get calls from her where she's on the verge of tears. It's not manipulation - she's a very sweet lady, unlike Toxic Relative - but the learned helplessness is frustrating. "I don't know what to do" and "I don't know how we'll cope" are constant refrains, even when we clearly point out that she has the power to say no to husband, that there are resources and options available, and that she can take a stand.

Patriarchy screwed her over, and it also screwed over her husband. He got caught in the need to establish that he was financially success and in charge, and that didn't allow him to admit that he needed help or to take advice until it was too late to avoid bankruptcy. In a healthy relationship, she would realize that she was also responsible for the financial decisions that were being made, and she would have been able to be a voice of reason that could have stopped some of the insanity before it truly got out of control.

Whenever I hear this fundie marriage advice, it just seems like a recipe for disaster, to replicate my relative's screwed up marital dynamics.

[Olive Plant]

My thing with the women who encourage submission is how they try and get you to believe that submission is somehow better. Like this one.

So you see, ladies? By submitting, you actually get MORE power than your husband! So really women are coming out on top after all! It's like they're taking what they think feminism tries to do, put women above men, and they're twisting it to their beliefs. Submitting makes you powerful! Submitting makes you strong! Submitting makes you free! But then any time anyone else proposes something that truly makes women stronger or more free, that's evil feminism talking. I don't get it.

Reminds me of that famous phrase in German: arbeit macht frei.

That's what people tell those they're exploiting in order to keep them working hard. And just FYI, if your husband only cares about your feelings when you keep them in line with his, then, honey, he doesn't really care about your feelings.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Respect also has nothing to do with submission. For starters, it should be mutual.

My husband and I can respect each other when we truly listening to each other, when we understand that there are things that are important to the other, when we are wiling to delegate areas of responsibility, when we are willing to compromise, and when we deal with areas of genuine disagreement honestly and in a way that focuses on the issue itself without attacking or belittling the other person.

For example, if a credit card bill was not paid, you could say "I noticed that the statement indicates that a payment wasn't paid. Do you have the confirmation number? How can we make sure that we have a better system, so that this doesn't happen again", vs. "I can't believe that you are such an irresponsible idiot."