Raising Olives on bossiness between siblings.

[tabitha2]

raisingolives.com/2012/08/dealing-bossy-older-siblings-moms/

The hell? i can barely understand all the rules, minutia and technicalities of their system-How is a five year old supposed to? Instead of Chrstian spirit i suspect all this does in reality is lead to frustration in children.

[CanadianHippie]

Wait, she was expected to take over mom's job at 11 years old after mom passed away? How fucked up is that?

(Couldn't focus after that, it's just so... wrong. Is dad so incapable that he needed an 11 year old to take over at home?)

[Morton Fan]

raisingolives.com/2012/08/dealing-bossy-older-siblings-moms/

The hell? i can barely understand all the rules, minutia and technicalities of their system-How is a five year old supposed to? Instead of Chrstian spirit i suspect all this does in reality is lead to frustration in children.

I was frustrated just reading it. Unbelievably complicated and weird.

[guidedbybobafett]

“Nick (4), I want you to go potty and get into bed.â€

Nick says, “Yes Ma’am.†(cheerfully) and then says, “I have a request.â€

Nick may NOT say, “I just went potty.†or “Daddy said I may stay up.†even if these things are true.This “rule†simply gives our little ones a concrete way to obey respectfully even when we, as the parent, may not have all of the information. This also has translated well to their siblings and others in authority over them.

WHAT. This seems completely insane to me! The kid may not tell the person requesting that they go to the bathroom that they have just gone to the bathroom without first agreeing that they will go to the bathroom?

Total, utter nonsense.

[BlondeAgent007]

It just sounds like they created a process that is so intricate and complicated that the child is better off just obeying and not questioning.

[NurseNell]

Wait, she was expected to take over mom's job at 11 years old after mom passed away? How fucked up is that?

(Couldn't focus after that, it's just so... wrong. Is dad so incapable that he needed an 11 year old to take over at home?)

But God had other plans I guess because her mother didn't pass away and is still alive.

[CanadianHippie]

But God had other plans I guess because her mother didn't pass away and is still alive.

Maybe God looked at the situation and said "No way in hell! She needs to be a child!"

[Deleted07]

At very, very young ages our children have practiced putting aside their desires

So you just break their spirit very young, presumably with blanket training meaning they don't fuss as much and hop straight to a task out of FEAR? :cry:

We deal with 5 year old because he disobeyed mom and dad by jumping on the couch. Additionally we deal with 5 year old because he refused to accept the wise counsel of his sibling. In other words, 5 year old is now in trouble for two different sins.

Way to go! A 2 for the price of one in terms of sin! :shock: That is magnificent, especially for a 5 year old! :?

If I have indeed given 5 year old permission to jump on the couch, I tell 4 year old and he should cheerfully accept my instruction.

Right, Mommy has the right to be a hypocrite, don't you dare question her nor be upset or unpleasant about her inconsistency! :|

I had to stop reading, she makes me violently angry and deeply upset! :x

[JesusFightClub]

Why do they need all these rules?

I like my brothers as well as loving them. We now have a great relationship, I'm going to youngest brother's flat today to see him and play with my nieces. I see him daily and I keep in touch with middle bro via facebook, phone calls and meeting up (he lives further away). I am extremely fond of them both and respect them both.

It didn't take a huge list of mad rules. And I am not a naturally nice person. My parents' only rule was "You take care of the wee ones." I like their personalities a lot. My middle bro is a brave human being who is clever at science. My youngest bro is a naturally talented musician who's also clever at science and thinks deeply about issues. I would be lost without them.

Nobody had to tell me to have a servant heart towards them or whatever bollocks. What for wid ye no? Of course you love your young siblings even though you may have fighty patches, the love never vanishes. I didn't need it pounded into me.

We've dealt with serious illness, PTSD, natural death and murder. Some of the issues are ongoing. Nothing broke us up. Nothing ever will.

These prescriptive lists make me sad. It's almost like they don't trust their kids to get on. Some siblings don't, which must be super tough (and I don't mean to minimise anyone's issues with that). But fundie families seem to assume brother will hate brother.

[slickcat79]

So you just break their spirit very young, presumably with blanket training meaning they don't fuss as much and hop straight to a task out of FEAR? :cry:

Way to go! A 2 for the price of one in terms of sin! :shock: That is magnificent, especially for a 5 year old! :?

Right, Mommy has the right to be a hypocrite, don't you dare question her nor be upset or unpleasant about her inconsistency! :|

I had to stop reading, she makes me violently angry and deeply upset! :x

So, I wonder if one sibling "counseled" the other to jump on the couch and they do it, does the fact that they obeyed cancel out the sin of jumping on the couch for a net gain of 0 sin?

I call BS on this one. No 4yo says things like "I have a request" and "Daddy says I may stay up later" without serious coaching. It's also really stupid to teach a kid that they have to obey someone who doesn't even have all the information about the situation. What if Mom tells Nick to go get in the car, Nick requests to give her the information that there's a scary man hiding beside the car, and Mom doesn't have time to listen? Now Nick's been snatched by a psychopath because Mom wouldn't listen.

I noticed they also follow the Duggar rule about ratting out your siblings to Mom and Dad at every opportunity. Can't give those kids a chance to develop their own discernment, or unify against their oppressors! She also gives specific examples of how her older kids "serve" the younger ones, but oddly enough, the kids with servants' hearts who are supposed to be taking care of their siblings are all girls. Fancy that :roll:

[desertvixen]

I like my brothers as well as loving them. We now have a great relationship, I'm going to youngest brother's flat today to see him and play with my nieces. I see him daily and I keep in touch with middle bro via facebook, phone calls and meeting up (he lives further away). I am extremely fond of them both and respect them both.

It didn't take a huge list of mad rules. And I am not a naturally nice person. My parents' only rule was "You take care of the wee ones." I like their personalities a lot. My middle bro is a brave human being who is clever at science. My youngest bro is a naturally talented musician who's also clever at science and thinks deeply about issues. I would be lost without them.

I will admit that I LIKE my brothers a lot more now that we're adults and aren't responsible for each other. (I have 2 younger ones, 4 and 6 years younger so a decent sized gap.) We don't get together much since I am stationed in Colorado and they live in Nevada, but that's what FB and texting are for.

Of course you love your young siblings even though you may have fighty patches, the love never vanishes. I didn't need it pounded into me.

QFT.

[Deleted07]

I made a reply there that never saw the light of moderation, but another persons did get posted and she went off on a LOOONG post:

PJB

August 4, 2012 | 4:39 pm

Are you sure that things like, “Not listening to wise counsel†and “Speaking in an unkind manner†etc. are, in fact, sins?

I’d like to know what definition of sin you use in your home — and how you distinguish ‘sin’ from other things, such as mistakes, misbehavior, or a child’s inability think well or fully control themself.

[Reply]

Kimberly @ Raising Olives Reply:

August 4th, 2012 at 6:13 pm

Sin is defined by disobedience to the law of God.

I, as a sinful human being, have no right to define sin apart from His Word nor to say that something that violates the law of God is not sinful, but merely a ‘mistake’. If I do that then I have placed myself as judge over the God of the universe.

The Bible clearly and repeatedly commands children to obey their parents. Therefore, when a child disobeys his parents he has sinned against God.

Of course there are other standards within the law of God and because we love our children and wish for them to love the Lord with all their heart, soul, mind and strength, (in John 14:21 Jesus says, “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.â€) we have tried to consistently teach them God’s standards for their lives.

As for your specific examples, Romans 12:10 says,

Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another;

and also Ephesians 4:32,

Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

The Bible also repeatedly talks about receiving wise counsel,

Listen to counsel and accept discipline, That you may be wise the rest of your days. Prov 19:20

A wise man will hear and increase in learning, And a man of understanding will acquire wise counsel Prov. 1:5

Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety. Prov. 11:14

The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, But a wise man is he who listens to counsel. Prov 12:15

Through insolence comes nothing but strife, But wisdom is with those who receive counsel. Prov 13:10

Because of these (and many other passages) we require that our children speak kindly and accept wise counsel.

The amazing and beautiful thing is that, even in the midst of our frequent failure and inconsistency, God has abundantly blessed the time that we’ve taken to patiently explain, help role-play and correct our children. This has paid off with children who, for the most part speak kindly and listen to wise counsel, not only from their siblings, but also from others.

People (strangers and friends) frequently say they have never seen such well behaved and happy children. Often, complete strangers will come up and comment about how much our kids love each other and how happy they being together. This is not something that we could hope to accomplish by a set of human standards, this is only by the blessing and mercy of God in giving our children changed hearts that love us, love Him and love others.

[Rosa]

of course. "It's not me, it's GOD. So I win."

[Want More Babies]

No wonder these fundie children are so fucked up when they become adults. The abuse that happens to them is unspeakable.

What an evil, vile, person Kimberly is.

[slickcat79]

Oh yeah, Kimberly, I'm sure your 3 and 4 year old children totes understand about sinning and keeping the commandments of god. Or maybe they just understand the fact that if they do something mom and dad tell them not to do, they'll get hit with rulers/spoons/plumbing line.

[tabitha2]

Raising Olives is very much against the Pearl method it is fair to note.

raisingolives.com/2010/03/the-pearls-and-your-childs-heart/

[slickcat79]

Raising Olives is very much against the Pearl method it is fair to note.

raisingolives.com/2010/03/the-pearls-and-your-childs-heart/

It is very good that she doesn't advocate the Pearls. I do find it troubling, though, that her biggest argument against them seems to be that she considers what they teach unbiblical, not that she finds hitting her kids to be bad. She is certainly in favor of "biblical discipline" and quotes the "spare the rod, spoil the child" verse to support her view. She also doesn't seem to be able to distinguish a child's mistake or inability to understand from willful sin, so there are a lot of Pearl-ish elements there :|

[NurseNell]

The older children read through the entire Bible 4 times a year and the younger ones read through it twice a year.

The older ones have an hour every AM for Bible reading, the younger ones 30 minutes. What is accomplished by reading it over and over? I'll admit I've never read the Bible cover to cover but holy cow, 4 times/year seems excessive to me.

[Koala]

Raising Olives is very much against the Pearl method it is fair to note.

raisingolives.com/2010/03/the-pearls-and-your-childs-heart/

No, she favors Tedd Tripp instead: http://raisingolives.com/2010/01/your-c ... ty-part-1/

Kimberly @ Raising Olives Reply:

January 22nd, 2010 at 8:36 am

Thank you for your kind words.

Shepherding a Child’s Heart really helped Mark and I understand how we should discipline our children by reaching their hearts. You’re more than welcome to borrow our copy if you’d like to read it.

In that same post (in comments) she stated the following:

Let me clear, I am not saying that Mr. Pearl’s ideas are wrong, just that to use and agree with his system as the standard is wrong.

She then went on to have the following interaction with a reader:

Reader:

I’m coming pretty late to this discussion I know, but I really wanted to comment since this is something I’ve struggled with since becoming a mum (my kids are 4.5, 2 and 7 months). I’ve read Shepherding a Child’s Heart, and others (Don’t Make Me Count to Three, Hints on Child Training etc) and I know lots of amazing Christian families who make use of spanking. I am convicted that it is a fruitful and Biblical discipline.

However, my issue relates to my temper, my outbursts and lack of self-control. Partly because of the way I was raised (as an adult my dad apologised for his spanking in anger) – I always thought that I was one of those ‘I was spanked and it did me no harm’ kind of people, but now I wonder. I only ever smack my oldest child in anger and frustration – if I am calm I always naturally use a different (hopefully no less effective) form of discipline.

Because of the verse “In your anger, do not sinâ€, I have removed smacking from my discipline repetoire (if I tell myself it is not right for me to do it, I am less likely to resort to it while angry – does that make sense?). I guess my question is – do you think this is right? I wonder if I should be praying to ask God to help me use smacking wisely, or if, because of my sinful nature and temper, it is ok to focus on other forms of discipline? I can already see my anger and temper in my son, and it breaks my heart.

I am getting so much out of your blog, and would love to know what you think. Thank you

She answers:

I’m very hesitant to do anything but point you to Scripture on this issue. I agree that physically punishing your child in anger is sinful and is something to be abhorred and avoided.

God says,

He who withholds his rod hates his son,

But he who loves him disciplines him diligently.

. As a Christian I am not at liberty to encourage you to violate God’s Word.

As a side note, I do not believe that ‘smacking’ your child is Biblical discipline.

I pray that God will give you wisdom and strength as you raise your children for His honor and glory.

[tabitha2]

I have never come across a true Fundamentalist family that did not believe in corporeal punishment. That said I think the extremes of the Pearl type of discipline are akin to the Maxwell family-way on the fringe and not appealing to most ''normal'' fundies

[Koala]

I have never come across a true Fundamentalist family that did not believe in corporeal punishment. That said I think the extremes of the Pearl type of discipline are akin to the Maxwell family-way on the fringe and not appealing to most ''normal'' fundies

Have you read Tedd Tripps book? Believe me, he's as extreme as they come. For that matter so is their Bible.

[Guest Anonymous]

I have never come across a true Fundamentalist family that did not believe in corporeal punishment. That said I think the extremes of the Pearl type of discipline are akin to the Maxwell family-way on the fringe and not appealing to most ''normal'' fundies

My pants wearing fundie medium mother loved James Dobson and the Pearls, and lots of parents in the large Southern Baptist church we attended at the time did also. There were tables in the foyer outside the sanctuary where these books were sold on quite a few occasions. Most of those families would have looked pretty normal from the outside, so I disagree with this.

[Rosa]

To be fair, a lot of people love the Dobson stuff in theory but in actuality don't have the stomach for it.

Ditto the Pearls, I think - a lot of the people who defend it are actually not doing it. They read it and take away "do the style of discipline I already do!" which may be authoritarian and include hitting/spanking, but would NEVER hurt an infant or beat a child down the way the Pearls recommend, and just sort of don't remember that those parts exist when they talk about the book.

My problem with that is that they're covering for the actual baby beaters, and the really abusive fuckers use the exact same language a the people who are just strict/authoritarian but not over the top with it, so you can't tell from the outside what's actually going on.

[Guest Anonymous]

To be fair, a lot of people love the Dobson stuff in theory but in actuality don't have the stomach for it.

Ditto the Pearls, I think - a lot of the people who defend it are actually not doing it. They read it and take away "do the style of discipline I already do!" which may be authoritarian and include hitting/spanking, but would NEVER hurt an infant or beat a child down the way the Pearls recommend, and just sort of don't remember that those parts exist when they talk about the book.

My problem with that is that they're covering for the actual baby beaters, and the really abusive fuckers use the exact same language a the people who are just strict/authoritarian but not over the top with it, so you can't tell from the outside what's actually going on.

I accept that my own experience colors my perspective on this one. I know what happened in my house was not okay, and some of my friends had it worse. Frankly I hope that you're more right than I am.

[JesusFightClub]

Because of the verse “In your anger, do not sinâ€, I have removed smacking from my discipline repetoire (if I tell myself it is not right for me to do it, I am less likely to resort to it while angry – does that make sense?). I guess my question is – do you think this is right? .

This is the line. This is how we keep the line. "If I tell myself it is not right to do it". You tell yourself it is not right to do it. Not with smacking :lol: but with other things.

S'funny how close communists are to fundies. I was thinking about that yesterday. I don't think, however, they would appreciate the comparison ;)

And some fuckers can't keep Party discipline.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Sheridan