Interesting Coincidence about the Colorado Shooter’s School

[Kitty]

You don't need to be mentally ill to be violent. In fact, I know there's studies out there that say that mental illness has far less to do with violence than many people think. It's really a cop-out to ignore other factors leading up to the violence.

Unless he comes out with something like "ghosts made me do it" or something obviously not congruent with reality, I'm not going to assume he's mentally ill or unstable.

[FakePigtails]

Mental illness or not, clearly *something* is off in this country since you don't hear about these types of massacres happening on a regular basis in other similarly developed countries. Whether it's access to guns and ammo, the mental health care system, something else, or some combination of whatever, it's there, the consequences are appalling and we need to figure out where we're going wrong and fix it.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Ahem.

I don't want to devolve into a topic that's been argued here legions of times before.

[emmiedahl]

And yet, the majority of violent crimes are committed by people who do not meet the criteria for mental illness. How do we "get safer" from that?

Casey Anthony and Andrea Yates have key differences that make me see one of them as mentally ill and one as a child murderer.

Maybe I am just over-sensitive. While I deal with my own mental illness and have never committed a crime, I have a brother who committed a violent crime due to his untreated bipolar disorder. I can accommodate both thoughts "Mentally ill people are not generally dangerous" and "Mentally ill people with delusions that encourage violence are dangerous". I can have both thoughts because I have experienced both sides.

[Mango]

I think being like "he's obviously mentally ill" is often a way of marginalizing and stigmatizing mental illness. While mental illness absolutely can contribute to things like this, assuming that it does without evidence is just wrong. Most people with mental illness are not abusive or violent. That doesn't mean they can't be, but it also doesn't mean that every abusive or violent person is automatically mentally ill either.

QFT!!!!

Sorry, but while I love you guys, one of the things that keeps me from posting here more often (like anyone cares, LOL) is the demonization of the mentally ill - fundie-ism and basically anything bad always seems to get attributed to mental illness rather than you know, people making shitty decisions. :( As someone who struggles with mental illness, that's just really hard to read over and over again.

[No Fun My Babe]

It's just the assumption that pisses me off and it's been everywhere since it happened. It's there like it's there throughout society anytime something horrible happens.

Since I can't think of anything on topic, I shall post this pic:

[Childless]

Mentally ill or not, this guy should be charged not only with murder, but also terrorism. If he were Muslim, you know that book would be thrown at him. I don't see why this individual shouldn't also be charged similarly. I don't care what religion he is. But, you know full well, that it won't even be discussed. He's white and a Christian, so he can't be a terrorist. :roll:

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Mentally ill or not, this guy should be charged not only with murder, but also terrorism. If he were Muslim, you know that book would be thrown at him. I don't see why this individual shouldn't also be charged similarly. I don't care what religion he is. But, you know full well, that it won't even be discussed. He's white and a Christian, so he can't be a terrorist. :roll:

:clap:

[emmiedahl]

QFT!!!!

Sorry, but while I love you guys, one of the things that keeps me from posting here more often (like anyone cares, LOL) is the demonization of the mentally ill - fundie-ism and basically anything bad always seems to get attributed to mental illness rather than you know, people making shitty decisions. :( As someone who struggles with mental illness, that's just really hard to read over and over again.

If you avoid FJ because of random speculation, I suggest you go back into hiding.

The assumption that irrational acts may be caused by delusional thought is not a huge leap. My brother would be in prison instead of getting treatment and being released to be a safe and productive member of society (when on his meds) if a DA had not been so eager to "demonize" the mentally ill by asking for a psych evaluation.

Delusional thought can be dangerous in some mental illnesses. There is nothing prejudiced about saying that. If anything, it is actually giving someone the benefit of the doubt. Andrea Yates would have gotten the death penalty instead of treatment if no one looked at certain crimes and thought, "This pattern of behavior seems delusional..." While I struggle with a mental illness and I am not a danger to society, I am grateful for having a society that is just beginning to realize that *some* people do bad shit because of brain chemistry that is not their fault and deserve different treatment from the random bad guy.

If we are afraid to treat mental illness for what it is--an illness that affects all of us as a culture--then we will be punishing the ill.

[Guest Anonymous]

QFT!!!!

Sorry, but while I love you guys, one of the things that keeps me from posting here more often (like anyone cares, LOL) is the demonization of the mentally ill - fundie-ism and basically anything bad always seems to get attributed to mental illness rather than you know, people making shitty decisions. :( As someone who struggles with mental illness, that's just really hard to read over and over again.

That does happen here sometimes. However, it's less often than most places on the internet and it's nearly always called out when it occurs. We're not a hive vagina though and not everyone agrees about this (or anything else.)

You have to make the decisions that are best for you and if it's detrimental for you to continue to read here I understand. But there are posters here who frequently talk about the subject and engage with others about it, so it's definitely something that's recognized and on the radar.

[bananacat]

I'm really curious about this. What are we considering mental illness? Schizophrenia? My sister has it, and while she isn't violent, she is verbally abusive and no one is abusive to her. Bi-polar? That's my ex-husband, and he was the one doing the hitting and choking, not just to me, but to at least 2 other women.

Not all mentally ill people are violent or abusive, but to act like it has nothing to do with violence isn't the answer either.

If you were educated about this issue, you would know that statistically, people with mental illness are no more likely to be abusive than people without mental illness. Your personal anecdotes won't convince me more than actual data.

[bananacat]

How often do you hear "I knew there was something 'off' about him/her" when someone commits a violent crime? This perp's own mother was not the least bit shocked by her son's behavior. That should say something!

It is very valid to discuss mental illness in situations like this. Stable people don't go around shooting up crowds of innocents. It does not degrade others with mental illness. Seriously, if there was better access to mental health services, society would be a LOT better. Not just in matters of crime, either.

Wow, have you seriously never heard of the hindsight bias? Our school system needs to do a much better job teaching the general public about logical fallacies.

[bananacat]

When someone tells others that he believes he is the Joker and then perpetrates a crime that is right out of a Batman comic at a Batman movie, I think perhaps he is mentally ill and that this contributed to his crime. This is not to say that the mentally ill are a uniformly dangerous population. I don't think we should shut down all discussion of the fact that society is safer when mental illness screening and treatment are available.

Lots of people without mental illness believe lots of incredibly ridiculous things. Many people believe that there is an invisible all-knowing entity that will personally interfere with their lives. Many people believe that the alignment of stars and planets at their time of birth magically affects their personality and the events of their lives. You can make any belief sound ridiculous if you phrase it the right way. And yet, most people do not have mental illness. You just really really want to blame this on mental illness. I can't believe you are even defending the stance that mental illness causes violence.

[emmiedahl]

If you were educated about this issue, you would know that statistically, people with mental illness are no more likely to be abusive than people without mental illness. Your personal anecdotes won't convince me more than actual data.

I can't believe you are even defending the stance that mental illness causes violence.

I never said it causes violence. I said that in crimes like this in which a person has had disordered behavior before the fact, mental illness is something that should be explored.

Mental illness is a huge label, so that means nothing. A person with chronic depression is no more likely to commit a crime, but someone with schizophrenia with violent ideation is an entirely different story. Severe and untreated mental illness is dangerous. Studies prove it. The NIH found that "during an episode of psychosis, especially psychosis associated with paranoia and so-called “command hallucinationsâ€, the risk of violence is increased" in the same study that you keep quoting. A study found that 10-15% of people in prisons are suffering from severe mental illness--are we helping them by pretending mental illness is not even a contributing factor? (http://psychiatryonline.org/article.asp ... leid=81232) Another study found that people with untreated severe mental illnesses are significantly more likely than the general population to be violent. Like 50% or more. (http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/ ... Itemid=221) Studies estimate that 5-15% of community violence is commited by people with severe mental illness. Is it fair to ignore the problem under the guise of political correctness? Are we just going to hope that it goes away?

[yaright]

Many crimes are committed everyday and people do not claim mental illness. So I am not sure why you are so upset that someone who did a very messed up crime has people saying they feel he may.

No not all crime is mental illness. No one has EVER said that. When people are murdered in drugs deals, crimes of passion, robberies, car jackings people say that they are bad people. When a man dresses in costume kills people for no reason and then says he is a comic book character people are going to wonder about mental illness.

And yes people with severe mental illness that is not treated can become very violent and obviously it is rare or the whole country would not be posting about about the murder of 12 people. People are murdered everyday. Lots of people are murdered everyday approximately 45 per day in the US.

A link to back up my numbers http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_murd ... _day_in_US

[NjoyingNsanity]

I know this won't make me popular but anyone who would buy a gun and then go on a killing spree shooting random people that hadn't done a damn thing to him can't be dealing with a full deck. I fully acknowledge that the majority of mentally ill people are harmless and often are victimized the history of psychology and the abuses that occured early on is proof of that. Of course then something like this happens and it is so senseless and just so horrific that you have no choice but to believe the person is either evil or insane. Baring the possibility of something as out there as demonic possession, what makes a seemingly normal person just snap and shoot up a theater full of people? I don't think you can look at what he did and say that there wasn't something seriously wrong with him. Whatever he was feeling or thinking that led him to arm himself to the teeth, dress-up like the Joker and go on a shooting spree wasn't normal. Sure people are capable of great evil without being mentally ill, but then you also have the field of psychology that recognizes some people as being sociopaths or psychopaths there are people with antisocial behavior and people who lose touch with reality and become delusional. That's why our judicial system has laws set up to protect people who commit a crime while not in their right mind.

[BravaAmica]

I know this won't make me popular but anyone who would buy a gun and then go on a killing spree shooting random people that hadn't done a damn thing to him can't be dealing with a full deck. I fully acknowledge that the majority of mentally ill people are harmless and often are victimized the history of psychology and the abuses that occured early on is proof of that. Of course then something like this happens and it is so senseless and just so horrific that you have no choice but to believe the person is either evil or insane. Baring the possibility of something as out there as demonic possession, what makes a seemingly normal person just snap and shoot up a theater full of people? I don't think you can look at what he did and say that there wasn't something seriously wrong with him. Whatever he was feeling or thinking that led him to arm himself to the teeth, dress-up like the Joker and go on a shooting spree wasn't normal. Sure people are capable of great evil without being mentally ill, but then you also have the field of psychology that recognizes some people as being sociopaths or psychopaths there are people with antisocial behavior and people who lose touch with reality and become delusional. That's why our judicial system has laws set up to protect people who commit a crime while not in their right mind.

What I bolded made me think of Timothy McVeigh. He wasn't suffering from mental illness. He was angry and wanted to kill a lot of people. Perhaps his delusion was that committing the hugest act of terrorism on American soil until 9/11, he'd actually create the change he wanted in the world. But that is more magical, child-like thinking- if I hurt someone else, I will get what I want- than mental illness.

This guy, though, highly probable that he's mentally ill.

[pomology]

I see people on both sides of this thread arguing essentially the same thing from different perspectives--that it is highly problematic that mental illness is so stigmatized in this country.

[BlueChair]

From where I stand, being able to acknowledge that the stigma is strong and damaging does not also mean that there are not sometimes consequences for mental illness, both to the person with the illness and those around them. A large proportion of the child protection cases that are dealt with are due to the parents' untreated or non-stabilized mental illness.

[3 is enough]

From an article in the Washington Post:

He’d been a good student in high school and college — indeed, exceptional, according to University of California at Riverside chancellor Timothy White. He’d graduated from Riverside with highest honors.

But it appears that Holmes was going into a personal tailspin in the months before the shooting. He’d been a doctoral candidate in neuroscience at the University of Colorado at Denver but had performed poorly on comprehensive tests this spring and, according to a faculty source, was in danger of going on academic probation. He had decided to quit the school and was in the process of withdrawing.

I don't want to make any assumptions about mental illness, but evidently this guy had hit the wall, academically speaking. That would be pretty traumatic for an over-achiever. I could see it possibly sending him off the deep end.

[Sumeri]

Saw this yesterday and thought it was interesting:

http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07 ... s-say?lite

[treemom]

He might have mental illness or he might now. But violence and deviating from acceptable social behavior and killing people is not enough to demonstrate mental illness.

Otherwise every person who is involved in a gang killing or anyone who rapes a woman is mentally ill.

[fakepigtails73]

Ugh, do we really have to go through this again? No, evil people aren't evil because of mental illness. Some people are just bad people. He may or may not have a mental illness, but it's not why he committed this massacre. Remember that people with mental illness are actually more likely to be the VICTIM of violence. Stop trying to pin all of this horror on mentally ill people.

Yeah, I'm so tired of it as well.

Each time a tragedy like this happens we see "he is mentally ill!" pop up here and there on this board. Every.single.time.

There are many things that mass murderers have in common with each other but mental illness is not one of them.

It's likely that members who write this mean well, but for members who deal with such conditions either in themselves or in their loved ones it hurts to be lumped with mass murderers...

ETA: I'm very tired today, so my English is worst than it usually is. Sorry! :whistle:

[Spartan89]

I never said it causes violence. I said that in crimes like this in which a person has had disordered behavior before the fact, mental illness is something that should be explored.

Mental illness is a huge label, so that means nothing. A person with chronic depression is no more likely to commit a crime, but someone with schizophrenia with violent ideation is an entirely different story. Severe and untreated mental illness is dangerous. Studies prove it. The NIH found that "during an episode of psychosis, especially psychosis associated with paranoia and so-called “command hallucinationsâ€, the risk of violence is increased" in the same study that you keep quoting. A study found that 10-15% of people in prisons are suffering from severe mental illness--are we helping them by pretending mental illness is not even a contributing factor? (http://psychiatryonline.org/article.asp ... leid=81232) Another study found that people with untreated severe mental illnesses are significantly more likely than the general population to be violent. Like 50% or more. (http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/ ... Itemid=221) Studies estimate that 5-15% of community violence is commited by people with severe mental illness. Is it fair to ignore the problem under the guise of political correctness? Are we just going to hope that it goes away?

Well said, Emmie. We had a discussion about this in my psych class last month before we started our clinicals. Overall, mentally ill people are not dangerous and are much more likely to be a victim than a perpetrator. My professor has worked in psychiatric hospitals for over 40 years and was very adamant about us knowing that and going into clinicals unafraid. However, he warned us that people with paranoid schizophrenia who experience command hallucinations are one exception to the general rule - they can be dangerous at times. Obviously, nobody can say for sure if the gunman is mentally ill, but it does sound like he was showing signs of paranoia.

[deelaem]

Well said, Emmie. We had a discussion about this in my psych class last month before we started our clinicals. Overall, mentally ill people are not dangerous and are much more likely to be a victim than a perpetrator. My professor has worked in psychiatric hospitals for over 40 years and was very adamant about us knowing that and going into clinicals unafraid. However, he warned us that people with paranoid schizophrenia who experience command hallucinations are one exception to the general rule - they can be dangerous at times. Obviously, nobody can say for sure if the gunman is mentally ill, but it does sound like he was showing signs of paranoia.

I've shared this before - my oldest son has paranoid schizophrenia. He is currently in a good remission and treatment compliant. When he was delusional, he did have times of acting out. Why? Because in his deluded thinking, he felt he was at great risk of harm at all times. He couldn't figure out what was a real threat and what wasn't. So he spent almost 100% of the time scared shitless. When he had a "violent" reaction, it was because he perceived himself to be in danger. He could be easily subdued by trying to calm his fears and reassure him. I worked in a psychiatric hospital for a long time, and it was usually the same with the people there.

What I'm trying to say is that when delusional people are violent, it's because they think they're in danger and what they do is react to the immediate threat. That often means they strike out at the person or thing that's agitating them. It is EXTREMELY rare that they spend months plotting out an elaborate scheme to kill large groups of people. That is psychopathy, which is caused by much more than mental illness. So to just say "this guy is mentally ill!" is not coming even close to telling the whole story, and has the effect of making those who are uneducated about mental illness be even more judgmental about them. And to say that the only other explanation is that he's demonic (I've seen this a few times) is just idiotic.

So yeah, some mental illness is probably a factor with Holmes. But by no means is it the only factor, or even the most important one. So that's why I object to the needless speculation on what his "illness" must be. The most important factor is that he's a violent predator.