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Destiny31's Corner

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What Are You Doing? Chapter 8: What are you teaching?, Part 1

Disclaimer: this chapter is all boring walls of text. I'll do my best to make it interesting, but I may not be successful.

Wine: naw, it would just make me fall asleep, cos this shit is boring.

We have another new character today! Captain Courtship, the youth pastor at Good Girl and Barren Spinster's church. Um, Barren Spinster is 32. Why does she have a youth pastor? Maybe I need some wine after all. Artist's rendition:

Spoiler

Charles.png.2e6d88f1b45af603acfa039d38a32bfa.png

Back in the god damned park. I may end up becoming a full on hater of nature by the end of this clusterfuck of fail. Incidentally, the chapter illustration is a high rise. One might wonder what a high rise has to do with a park, but one would never get an answer, so moving the fuck on. Nosy Busybody is chillin' in the park and OMFG DO THESE PEOPLE HAVE JOBS? WHY IS EVERYONE IN THE PARK ALL DAY LONG? Captain Courtship is also in the park today BECAUSE REASONS AND COS FUCK ME THAT'S WHY, so he wanders over to Nosy Busybody and asks if they can talk. Captain Courtship wants to set the record straight on what courtship really means, because he feels like Good Girl and Barren Spinster did a bad job of it. Spoiler: this explanation goes on for FIFTEEN fucking pages. SEND HELP! (this is totally why this chapter has taken so long, cos it's too damned long and I'm scared.)

Quote

Sakal: Oh? I thought they did a rather good job, between them. It was rather awkward for them, obviously.

Charles: Yes, you’re right. It is awkward for them. They aren’t really trained in those things.

Sakal: Those things?

Charles: Well, theology, and youth ministry.

Sakal: I see. I had thought maybe you meant in Bible study and doctrine.

Charles: Yes, that’s what I meant by ‘theology’.

Nosy Busybody, you arrogant motherfucker. I hate you and your condescending ass. That's what fucking theology means, you steaming pile of shit. This was the point were I took a 20 minute detour to try to determine if Mr. Ohlman (who is a creeper) has a college education, but I was unsuccessful at doing so. I assume that he must have some sort of secondary education if he worked as a schoolteacher, but I could find nothing that says that he has a college degree. Not that I think having a degree matters all that much, but this quote definitely seems to hate on people with educations. This guy. This fucking guy. HATE.

Anyway, Captain Courtship gives the boring courtship is godly and keeps you from giving away pieces of your heart speech, and I'm just going to skip it, because, if you are on FJ, you have heard it all before and because I have blood pressure to consider. Nosy Busybody retorts that courtship really doesn't seem all that dissimilar from dating, because there are serial courters in the world. I don't entirely disagree with Nosy Busybody on this issue, but I also think the whole courtship movement is FUCKING HORSESHIT and that getting your heart broken a time or two is part of growing up. It's a shitty part, but learning what DOESN'T work for you in a relation ship helps you learn what DOES.

Nosy Busybody starts in on his spiel about how the bible doesn't say that people who marry should be able to support themselves or that they should be mature enough to make a life altering decision and omfg, I want to punch him. It breaks my heart to think of the kids this asshole has harmed. Captain Courtship and Nosy Busybody go back and forth for a while on whether courtship is Biblical, and it's boring and stupid and send help and wine!

Quote

Sakal: Let me see if I can explain it in terms you are used to. The same author you quoted earlier, said there are five fundamental principles to what he calls ‘Scriptural romance’: piety, patriarchy, purity, preparedness and patience.lx (Footnote is a link to http://itwillpass.com/family_dating.shtml.)

God, hes' being condescending again, and I want to reach through the screen and throttle him. So fucking badly. Apparently we are going to go through all five of these points and Nosy Busybody is going to explain to us how courtship does NOT serve these goals. (Personally, I think anything that doesn't serve the goal of more patriarchy is a win, but I'm a godless heathen so what the fuck do I know?)

I'm just gonna summarise the five points, because this goes on for PAGES. Piety: courtship can't be pious because there's no one who gets married via courtship in the Bible? Uh, what the actual fuck does that have to do with piety? I don't think that word means what he thinks it means. Go get the fortifying beverage of your choice before you start the next one. I did. For the record, I now have a cider next to me while I'm writing this because this one made me angry. Patriarchy: courtship allows the children to make choices with the parent's approval. The Bible doesn't talk about that.  The Bible has the parents telling the children what to do and they just do it. *vomits* Purity: the tl;dr of this argument is that Paul said it is better to marry than burn, so let's marry them off so they don't have bad thoughts about teh ebil secks. Preparedness: basically, it's they've reached sexual awakening, so they should get married and go start popping out babies. Patience: a good thing, but should not be confused with delay. The whole section was a word salad that made no sense to me.

They go back and forth on whether Rebekah consented to the marriage with Isaac for like 2 pages. Captain Courtship is team Rebekah gave consent to marrying Isaac because there is a Bible verse where she says "I will go". Nosy Busybody tries to make the case that her consent was demanded because her father had already made the agreement. Here's what it says, because it makes me too angry:

Quote

Sakal: Exactly, so what does that do to Calvin’s argument here? Read Bethuel’s statement again, and see how much he qualifies it. Does he say, ‘If Rebecca agrees’? Does he even imply it?

Charles: Well, no, not really. It is a very strong statement. But no doubt they made strong statements in those days.

Sakal: And no doubt they meant them too. Come, you studied those cultures in seminary. How likely is it that an oriental man of his type would have really meant,”...if my daughter agrees” when taking a vow?

Charles: Well. Not very likely. Then why did they ask her?

Sakal: Gill, who still wants to find some ‘consent’ from Rebecca, says of verse fifty eight: “the question was not about her marriage of Isaac, that was agreed upon, and she had doubtless given her consent, and which she tacitly did by accepting of the presents, but about taking the journey immediately:lxxv” She had already been given to Isaac; they were having an argument about when exactly she should leave. Her mother wanted her to stay for a few days of ‘goodbyes’, and Abraham’s servant, the impatient one, wanted them to leave immediately.

Leaving out the oriental bit, which is terrible for its own reasons, WHAT THE SHIT FUCK?????????????????? This guy is fucking evil.

Moving on, we are going to go through Nosy Busybody's five principles for how to make a successful marriage. I am going to go through these tomorrow, or later tonight, because Luna should be here soon, and I don't want to be angry when she gets here. Part 2, coming soon.

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CTRLZero

Posted (edited)

I checked out the itwillpass.com website, which describes itself as "Australian website liberating [fellow Aussies] from the occultic tripod of fear, ignorance and superstition."  Really!  If you want to exercise your eyerolls, this is the site for you!  Nothing new here, but conveniently concentrated in one easy-to-snark website.

The real meaning behind "it will pass" is contained in the Health tab's offering of liver and gallstone info.  Studies confirm that no one has died of using vitamins, etc.  Pyramid schemes galore and connections, of course, to Answers in Genesis. 

:5624797b0697e_headbash:

Quote from itwillpass.com:  " Do you resent the thought of your father initiating, investigating, choosing, and overseeing your romantic relationship? Instead do you want control, "freedom," and privacy in your relationship?"

Putting freedom in quotes makes my head hurt.

Edited by CTRLZero

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Destiny

Posted

I didn't look too carefully cos no time for a rabbit hole today. It looks like a gold mine of crazy though. 

I'm only half way through that clusterfuck of a chapter. 

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WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?

Posted (edited)

I tried checking out itwillpass.com but all I could see from the home page was the home page. Anything I clicked on sent me right back to the home page. :pb_rollseyes: The home page with the wonderful quote, "This to [sic] shall pass."

I did get to the "courtship is better than dating" page by using @Destiny's link above. I loved this part:

"Unrealistic standards of comparison.

It's not uncommon, after the newness of marriage wears off, that marriage partners find themselves discontented with each other. Often, then, they will mentally compare their spouse to someone they knew in the past. Men sometimes think thoughts like this: "She doesn't cook like so and so; she isn't as pretty as so and so." And women are tempted to think thoughts like: "He isn't as sensitive as so and so was; he just doesn't listen to me the way so and so did; maybe I should have married so and so - he never made me feel so cherished." If we had never been intimate with so many "so and so's" we wouldn't have such extensive standards for finding fault with our mate but would find greater contentment in marriage."(my bold)

So, discontentment in marriage is caused by having higher standards? We shouldn't set "extensive standards" for our spouses; we would be happier if we were ignorant? If only I had just settled for the first man I ever kissed!

image.jpg

Edited by WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?

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HerNameIsBuffy

Posted

If her consent is not required I need them to clearly explain how this is different than selling her into sexual slavery which is a fucking crime.  It's not just not stressing consent, it's addressing it to specifically point out that it's not required that makes me want the police to interview every woman and girl with whom they've ever had contact.

im rereading these thinking the second time I'd be less angry but I'm viscerally furious that people like this exist and as you put it so beautifully before - some kid is being harmed by this right now.

and apropos of nothing but the illustration looks so much like one of my old gynecologists that I did a spit take.

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Destiny

Posted

8 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

If her consent is not required I need them to clearly explain how this is different than selling her into sexual slavery which is a fucking crime.  It's not just not stressing consent, it's addressing it to specifically point out that it's not required that makes me want the police to interview every woman and girl with whom they've ever had contact.

It's fucking not, and given that the girl that Vaughn Ohlman (who is a creeper) bought for his son was underage, I'd love to have that happen too.

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uber frau

Posted

Actually, I think that article is incorrect.  Laura wrote somewhere that she was 19 when she was 'betrothed' and 20 when she was married.

Vyckie is just being Vyckie. She's grabbed an angle without actually checking the facts and running with it regardless. (In this instance, she doesn't seem to have realised that the ppl often forget to update the header/'about me' section on their blogs and social media accounts.)  But then, little things like facts don't matter to her.  It doesn't matter if what she says helps or hinders whatever other ppl are trying to do, what matters is that someone is looking at Vyckie.  Anything to catch the wave of attention and direct some of it her way.   

 

 

  

 

 

 

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Destiny

Posted

14 minutes ago, uber frau said:

Actually, I think that article is incorrect.  Laura wrote somewhere that she was 19 when she was 'betrothed' and 20 when she was married.

Vyckie is just being Vyckie. She's grabbed an angle without actually checking the facts and running with it regardless. (In this instance, she doesn't seem to have realised that the ppl often forget to update the header/'about me' section on their blogs and social media accounts.)  But then, little things like facts don't matter to her.  It doesn't matter if what she says helps or hinders whatever other ppl are trying to do, what matters is that someone is looking at Vyckie.  Anything to catch the wave of attention and direct some of it her way.

Possibly because V is a special snowflake. That said, I found the bit about her being underage elsewhere last week, and it was based on a comment on the now deleted blog where she gave her age as 19 then, while having a kid or two. There was some guesswork in the article on if she was 15 or 16 at the time of the marriage. I can't remember where I found that now, so I can't remember for certain if there was a direct quote in the article or not.

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uber frau

Posted (edited)

I can't work out how to do a quote box thingy on a mobile phone but this is part of a response to a comment on her blog http://www.princecharmingdiapers.com/betrothal-story-joshua-laura/

It's dated 14th April 2016.

 

" Hello Ruth,
Thank you for commenting! I was 20 when we got married, 19 when we got betrothed."

Ppl like V annoy me because they discredit and distract from the real issues. VOhlman is an incredibly fucked up individual but the fact that he's personally organised underage marriages is not a charge that will stand up.

 

 

Edited by uber frau

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  • Posts

    • Katzchen24

      Posted

      That's a really interesting article. I hadn't really thought about it, but the majority of the fundies we snark on really do only rant on a limited number of themes. Mostly it's abortion, female purity, anti-LGBTQI and  general KJV-ness. 

      "The Bible’s exhortations to compassion for immigrants and the poor stretch long enough to comprise a sizeable book of their own, but no matter. White evangelicals will not let their political ambitions be constrained by something as pliable as scripture."

      Maybe FJ selects to snark on only a particular type of fundie, but I have NEVER heard one obsess about the poor or immigrants even one iota as much as they do about modesty or abortion. 

      As far as I'm concerned, the fundie obsession with female purity is a power and control grab dressed up as godliness. I've never understood why men have so much power over the female reproductive system and how so much prestige has been granted to male inheritance. It makes so much more sense for inheritance to be matrilineal if you want to be really sure of parentage. 

      • I Agree 2
    • SolomonFundy

      Posted

      You may be thinking of the Goodwins. Atlanta and Jordan live on a homestead (adjacent to his family) in middle Tennessee. A few years ago, they acquired a second, larger wood stove to use in their home, and moved the smaller wood stove to an exterior porch for Summertime cooking. This accomplished the tandem goal of allowing heat to remain outdoors in the Summer, and indoors in the Winter as the larger stove is capable of heating the entire house in colder months. The smaller stove is eventually supposed to be moved to an unfinished area of the homestead that is intended as a Summer kitchen. Atlanta and Jordan now have 6 children, and she generally spaces about 18 months apart. So your memory of a baby + pregnancy is entirely possible. (The last two children were twins.)

      I'm not sure what you consider "well connected" to entail, but Atlanta and Jordan have quite a few social ties to fundy families. They also infamously had a Civil War themed wedding, complete with Confederate flags, antebellum dresses, and southern army uniforms for the men. She's remotely descended from Nathaniel Bedford Forrest (Confederate army general), and the wedding was held at his childhood home site. Forrest is credited with founding the KKK. Not exactly the family connection that most people would think to celebrate on their wedding day, but I guess Atlanta and Jordan felt that it was a appropriate for themselves. 😑

      • Love 1
    • marmalade

      Posted

      On 8/3/2020 at 12:16 PM, HereticHick said:

      Where did he say that he knows zero Spanish? And I wonder what language he studied at Syracuse, which I believe has a language requirement.

      He did grad school at Syracuse. Not sure if his undergrad had a foreign language requirement. I think it was a small liberal arts college, so I imagine it did. However, he could have fulfilled it in high school when he went to public school to boost his soccer. 

    • SolomonFundy

      Posted

      3 hours ago, calliopecassandra said:

      I'd say getting pregnant again 5 months after a stillborn is pretty soon. I know after a miscarriage, you're "supposed" to wait 6 months. Oh and they had to wait 6 weeks to have sex again. Are they people who say so many days after a girl birth and less after a boy, do we know?

      Susannah wasn't stillborn. She lived for several days after birth on life support. Melanie and Nathan seem to have a pattern of trying very soon after a loss. Susannah's death was incredibly traumatic for the whole family, and I personally don't think that they were any more irresponsible than any other couple who has 2 babies in 14 months. But then, about a year after Abby was born, they had a miscarriage. 10 months later, Betsy was born. So, over the course of 3.5 years, they had four pregnancies, including three full term births, the loss of Susannah soon after birth, and a miscarriage. 

      • Upvote 2
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    • thoughtful

      Posted

      Becky's turn - she'll post stupid inaccurate shit about masks, but she'll sell Tupperware to store them:

      Spoiler

      image.png.cd050deb5b23c784693b948b7b183209.png

      Guilt works for sales, as well as church. Becky, the companies you listed are not independent, Mom and Pop businesses, and they're mostly dishonest.

      Spoiler

      image.png.c8c7f9409ca39b11a75cb94c9e5183fc.png

      image.png.e9d9330273c25eb79912415b1571ade1.png

       

       

      • Thank You 2


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