Quick argument against Biblical corporal punishment

[2xx1xy1JD]

1. If you read the Bible as saying that you MUST spank all children, in order to prevent them from becoming horrible sinners, that would mean that there are NO children who weren't spanked who are decent.

I wasn't spanked and turned out fine. My kids weren't spanked, and get perfect conduct grades. [i'm not saying that it's all due to my perfect parenting as opposed to luck, but clearly lack of spanking didn't turn them into delinquents.)

2. Therefore, the verses on the rod must meaning that you use it IF NECESSARY, not that it is mandatory.

3. You cannot know whether or not corporal punishment is truly necessary unless and until you seriously try positive parenting/non-physical discipline.

4. Why not use physical punishment even if other methods exist? Because the Golden Rule makes it pretty clear that you need to treat others - including your children - as you would want to be treated. It's not okay to break the Golden Rule just because you find it less effort to spank, if the spanking is not truly necessary.

5. If you are still worried about disregarding something in Proverbs, take your Bible and read Proverbs - ALL of it. You'll notice a lot of emphatic, even extreme language, because the text is trying to make a point. If you still want to claim that every line is meant to be taken literally as a directive, read Proverbs 23 and think about what you would need to do if you were invited to a White House dinner and felt hungry. Presumably, you wouldn't answer "stab yourself in the throat" - but that's the literal meaning of the verse.

[CanadianHippie]

Matthew 25:45: "Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me."

According to Jesus himself, every time you spank your child, you spank Jesus.

[apple1]

5. If you are still worried about disregarding something in Proverbs, take your Bible and read Proverbs - ALL of it. You'll notice a lot of emphatic, even extreme language, because the text is trying to make a point. If you still want to claim that every line is meant to be taken literally as a directive, read Proverbs 23 and think about what you would need to do if you were invited to a White House dinner and felt hungry. Presumably, you wouldn't answer "stab yourself in the throat" - but that's the literal meaning of the verse.

Definition of "proverb"

a short popular saying, usually of unknown and ancient origin, that expresses effectively some commonplace truth or useful thought; adage; saw; a wise saying or precept; a didactic sentence

This is what the Biblical book of Proverbs is - a collection of the above; a book of probabilities. Not "promises".

For example:

Proverbs 19:15

Slothfulness casteth into a deep sleep; and an idle soul shall suffer hunger.

i.e. If someone is so lazy that they just lie around all the time, they might end up hungry.

Just an example.

People who get child beating out of Proverbs fail in basic understanding of what Proverbs is, i.e. a collection of historical sayings, representative of the culture of the times, some of which may have timeless application.

(I pretty much agree with 2xx1xyJD).

[2xx1xy1JD]

Since the English definition obviously came after the Hebrew text, I looked up information about the Hebrew meaning of the word and language style of the book.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... 16139.html

The Hebrew name of the Book of Proverbs is Mishlei, which is the plural form of "mashal".

The word mashal, literally "likeness, comparison" (cf. Akkadian mašālu, "to be similar to"), would most obviously refer to proverbial expressions employing similes (e.g., Ezek. 16:44, "like mother, like daughter"). In practice however, mashal is applied to a wide variety of compositions characterized by elevated language or rhetorical style, such as prophetic speeches, parables, and even extended series of oaths (e.g. Num. 23:7; Ezek. 17:2; Job 27:1). Indeed, in the Hebrew Bible itself, mashal appears alongside and is linked to such disparate designations as kelalah, "curse"; lit., "deprecation" (Jer 24:9), neginah, "(taunt) song" (Ps. 69:13), nehi, "lament" (Mic. 2:4), and ot, "sign," "symbol" (Ezek. 14:8). In Proverbs 10–22:16 and chapters 25–29 the heading Mishle Shelomo may have designated the literary form characteristic of these sections, namely, a single-line proverb in poetic parallelism, as distinguished from the half-line or prosaic form of colloquial sayings (cf. I Sam. 10:12; 24:14).

[bold added]

So....if it is a book of similes and metaphors, then it could be understood that "rod" isn't necessarily supposed to be a literal rod, and if the word refers to something characterized by "elevated language or rhetorical style", then people reading it would realize that it's very different from a literal commandment.

[apple1]

We are in agreement, although I bow to your more historical definition.

[She Who Laughs]

1. If you read the Bible as saying that you MUST spank all children, in order to prevent them from becoming horrible sinners, that would mean that there are NO children who weren't spanked who are decent.

I wasn't spanked and turned out fine. My kids weren't spanked, and get perfect conduct grades. [i'm not saying that it's all due to my perfect parenting as opposed to luck, but clearly lack of spanking didn't turn them into delinquents.)

2. Therefore, the verses on the rod must meaning that you use it IF NECESSARY, not that it is mandatory.

3. You cannot know whether or not corporal punishment is truly necessary unless and until you seriously try positive parenting/non-physical discipline.

4. Why not use physical punishment even if other methods exist? Because the Golden Rule makes it pretty clear that you need to treat others - including your children - as you would want to be treated. It's not okay to break the Golden Rule just because you find it less effort to spank, if the spanking is not truly necessary.

5. If you are still worried about disregarding something in Proverbs, take your Bible and read Proverbs - ALL of it. You'll notice a lot of emphatic, even extreme language, because the text is trying to make a point. If you still want to claim that every line is meant to be taken literally as a directive, read Proverbs 23 and think about what you would need to do if you were invited to a White House dinner and felt hungry. Presumably, you wouldn't answer "stab yourself in the throat" - but that's the literal meaning of the verse.

I, along with all 8 of my siblings were spanked, and we all turned out fine. I spanked my kids, they turned out fine and they spank/plan to spank as well. If I, or my kids, thought spanking were so horrible we wouldn't choose it ourselves. Although, the spankings I received and gave were done only in cases of blatant, in your face, disobedience and they were done calmly, with explanation and were never done in anger. There was also a time of reflection and talking about it and why it happened and how to avoid it in the future. Naturally at the time I didn't enjoy it when I was being spanked, but looking back on it, those were some of the most meaningful conversations I had with my parents following a spanking and after I was grown I thanked my parents for spankings and I am truly grateful that they loved me enough to spank me when I needed it. I know my siblings feel the same way. My kids have come to me and told me they appreciated the parenting they received, including the spankings and that is why they have chosen to also spank and I support them 100%.

[Koala]

I, along with all 8 of my siblings were spanked, and we all turned out fine. I spanked my kids, they turned out fine and they spank/plan to spank as well. If I, or my kids, thought spanking were so horrible we wouldn't choose it ourselves. Although, the spankings I received and gave were done only in cases of blatant, in your face, disobedience and they were done calmly, with explanation and were never done in anger. There was also a time of reflection and talking about it and why it happened and how to avoid it in the future. Naturally at the time I didn't enjoy it when I was being spanked, but looking back on it, those were some of the most meaningful conversations I had with my parents following a spanking and after I was grown I thanked my parents for spankings and I am truly grateful that they loved me enough to spank me when I needed it. I know my siblings feel the same way. My kids have come to me and told me they appreciated the parenting they received, including the spankings and that is why they have chosen to also spank and I support them 100%.

Lots of people go through horrific childhoods and come out "fine". It's in spite of, not because of.

Your parents could have had the meaningful conversations without hitting you. Or are you arguing that hitting you somehow brought them mental clarity?

Don't hit kids. It's disgusting.

[She Who Laughs]

You have your opinion, I have mine. I love how anti-spankers call it hitting, they like to do that to make it sound violent and "disgusting." I never felt that way about it even while it was happening. I knew why I was being spanked and I knew what I had done to deserve it. If my parents had tried some other lame method, I would have seen it as a victory and would have continued in my bad behavior. Funny thing that anti-spankers never mention is that even parents who may not spank can end up using their discipline method in an abusive way. Some lock their kids in closets, handcuff them to their beds, lock them in the basement, make them sit in time-out for hours on end. Absolutely ANY method for discipline can be turned into a horrible and abusive thing if done the wrong way, in an extreme manner, and out of anger.

[formergothardite]

Please explain how you spanked without hitting your child. And we have had lots of threads where it has been brought up that non-spanking methods of discipline can be abusive so bullshit on that part of your posts.

[Koala]

I love how anti-spankers call it hitting

I call it hitting because it is hitting. Is it not?

I knew what I had done to deserve it.

No child deserves to be hit...especially by someone twice their size that is supposed to love and protect them.

Funny thing that anti-spankers never mention is that even parents who may not spank can end up using their discipline method in an abusive way.

Some lock their kids in closets, handcuff them to their beds, lock them in the basement, make them sit in time-out for hours on end. Absolutely ANY method for discipline can be turned into a horrible and abusive thing if done the wrong way, in an extreme manner, and out of anger.

Yeah, we just turn a blind eye to that. :roll: I'm sure no one here would utter a word about kids locked in the basement or handcuffed to a bed. Of course not.

Don't be an stupid.

[Koala]

Please explain how you spanked without hitting your child.

This is the question I would most like to see answered.

[formergothardite]

This is the question I would most like to see answered.

And it is the one that spankers try to avoid answering.

[Conuly]

I, along with all 8 of my siblings were spanked, and we all turned out fine. I spanked my kids, they turned out fine and they spank/plan to spank as well.

You have no control group. You don't know how you would have turned out if you had not been spanked. You don't know if you DID turn out "just fine" because you have no basis of comparison, in the same way that children with bad eyesight often don't know they can't see because they assume they're normal.

If I, or my kids, thought spanking were so horrible we wouldn't choose it ourselves.

This is irrelevant. Even children who are being horrifically abused often try to protect their parents and believe they deserved it and it's not that bad.

This is because criticizing your parents can cause huge cognitive dissonance in people. If your parents were good people who loved you (and even if they weren't most people like to believe it and try really hard to do so) then it can be hard to question their methods. If spanking is wrong, does that mean your parents were bad people? Better to not even ask the question!

So most people will just go along with however they were raised, because it's better than wondering if their parents messed up. Sometimes this is great - mom breastfed me, so I'll breastfeed my kids! Sometimes this is awful - mom never cooked dinner, and I turned out "just fine" even though I subsisted off of chips and cookies, so why can't I do that with my kid? My parents loved me! Regardless, it means the "I don't think my parents were wrong!" argument is totally useless. When it comes to big things, very few people think their parents were wrong.

And besides, plenty of people who were spanked grow up and say "I'll never do that to my kids!" Does that mean they're right and you're wrong? Maybe.

Although, the spankings I received and gave were done only in cases of blatant, in your face, disobedience and they were done calmly, with explanation and were never done in anger. There was also a time of reflection and talking about it and why it happened and how to avoid it in the future. Naturally at the time I didn't enjoy it when I was being spanked, but looking back on it, those were some of the most meaningful conversations I had with my parents following a spanking and after I was grown I thanked my parents for spankings and I am truly grateful that they loved me enough to spank me when I needed it.

I don't know, it sounds like the conversations did the work.

My kids have come to me and told me they appreciated the parenting they received, including the spankings and that is why they have chosen to also spank and I support them 100%.

Again, they are biased. Everybody is, which is why anecdotes don't really *work*. Your kids aren't going to go to you and say "Mom, you were an awful person. Spanking messed me up." Why would they do that?

You have your opinion, I have mine. I love how anti-spankers call it hitting, they like to do that to make it sound violent and "disgusting."

Dude, you're using a tool or a hand to strike your child's flesh in order to cause pain as a punishment for bad behavior. That's hitting. If you don't think this is bad, then own it. Call a spade a spade and admit you hit your children because that's what spanking is.

I never felt that way about it even while it was happening.

Human memory is notoriously fallible, especially when it comes to things like our thoughts and feelings.

I knew why I was being spanked and I knew what I had done to deserve it.

And if you'd had a time-out or been grounded or been lectured you would have known as well.

If my parents had tried some other lame method, I would have seen it as a victory and would have continued in my bad behavior.

1. You don't know this because you were only raised with one method. There is no basis of comparison here.

2. Not all people raise their children in this adversarial way with winners and losers. Sometimes I think the best bet is to stop being so punitive in the first place, although it's hard to make that change. (Boy is it ever!)

3. Given that you mention multiple spankings it sounds to me like you DID continue in your bad behavior.

Funny thing that anti-spankers never mention is that even parents who may not spank can end up using their discipline method in an abusive way. Some lock their kids in closets, handcuff them to their beds, lock them in the basement, make them sit in time-out for hours on end. Absolutely ANY method for discipline can be turned into a horrible and abusive thing if done the wrong way, in an extreme manner, and out of anger.

1. When you change subjects, do us a favor and make a new paragraph. It's just good editing and good manners.

2. No shit. We're not here comparing "three smacks on the bottom" to "being locked in the basement for two weeks with no food", we're comparing "three smacks on the bottom" with "five minutes on the time-out step". If you don't have a good argument, don't use a bad one. It only makes your entire point look feeble and weak.

[snarkbillie]

You have your opinion, I have mine. I love how anti-spankers call it hitting, they like to do that to make it sound violent and "disgusting." I never felt that way about it even while it was happening. I knew why I was being spanked and I knew what I had done to deserve it.

Violence is the expression of physical force against self or other, especially against their will with the intent to cause pain. That describes spanking perfectly. Spanking is violent. Whether or not you "felt" it was violent is immaterial, because words have meanings and the word violent is an adequate adjective for spanking. When someone hits someone else they are being violent. You are using violence against your children. Someone used violence against you. You did not deserve it.

[snarkykitty]

I seriously wonder, out of all the children who have ever been spanked as a regular form of "discipline"/punishment/training up/lazy parenting, how many had meaningful conversations with their parents afterward?

Is "now get the hell out of here, I don't want to look at you" or "stop crying or I'll give you something more to cry about" meaningful? I'm confused, :think:

[Koala]

Violence is the expression of physical force against self or other, especially against their will with the intent to cause pain. That describes spanking perfectly. Spanking is violent. Whether or not you "felt" it was violent is immaterial, because words have meanings and the word violent is an adequate adjective for spanking. When someone hits someone else they are being violent. You are using violence against your children. Someone used violence against you. You did not deserve it.

well said.

[geniebelle6901]

I will say that my sis & I got a few swats on the butt when we really misbehaved & time outs didn't work, and we turned out ok. My sister will not use any type of corporal punishment because her son is autistic & because she was very effective with the time outs and withholding toys and such when the kids misbehaved. A couple of things she used was taking away MP3 players, video games, loss of computer time unless needed for homework or school projects, and plain old grounding for a week or two. Kid's these days feel they can't live without their "gadgets".

I have no kids, so it's not an issue. But when I would babysit, I wold never, ever spank or otherwise hit a child. Even if I knew the family did spank, I wouldn't do it if the kids acted up. Same think applied when I would babysit my sis's kids. Hitting kids is plain wrong. I can kind of sort up understand other people giving their kids little swats on the behind (when I say swat, I mean on little swat on the butt with the hand beating with a belt, switch, or any other instrument) as a last resort punishment, but I could and would never do it to a child.

With my nephew it's different, because he's mildly autistic. They don't really punish him with time outs or withhold toys or other privileges But she & BIL found out that he got a paddling for acting out, after they signed a form requesting no physical punishment for their kids. That teacher has since been fired. But they are looking into a private school or see if our cousin could accept him as part of her homechooling. She only has 2 kids & one has severe learning disabilities. She doesn't use corporal punishment, has a degree in early childhood education, and a teacher's certificate, and would be happy to help practically for free. We're just not sure what AL law is on this since my nephew won't be technically homeschooled my his parents, and from what I understand AL has some strict homeschooling regulations. Anybody from AL have any advice? My sis would really prefer to have my cousin homeschool. They can't afford private school. My oldest niece graduates high school next month, and my other niece is just fine in public school and is an honor roll student. It's just me nephew we are all worried about.

ETA: Big correction

ETA Agan for a grammar mistake

[deelaem]

I, along with all 8 of my siblings were spanked, and we all turned out fine. I spanked my kids, they turned out fine and they spank/plan to spank as well. If I, or my kids, thought spanking were so horrible we wouldn't choose it ourselves. Although, the spankings I received and gave were done only in cases of blatant, in your face, disobedience and they were done calmly, with explanation and were never done in anger. There was also a time of reflection and talking about it and why it happened and how to avoid it in the future. Naturally at the time I didn't enjoy it when I was being spanked, but looking back on it, those were some of the most meaningful conversations I had with my parents following a spanking and after I was grown I thanked my parents for spankings and I am truly grateful that they loved me enough to spank me when I needed it. I know my siblings feel the same way. My kids have come to me and told me they appreciated the parenting they received, including the spankings and that is why they have chosen to also spank and I support them 100%.

And by what standard did you and your progeny turn out "fine"? Your own? Don't you think it's incredibly arrogant of you to assert that you and your kids are the only special, "fine" ones because you were spanked? That everyone else who was raised without spanking isn't "fine?"

It is impossible to spank someone without hitting them. According to Dictionary.com -

spank    [spangk] Show IPA

verb (used with object)

1.

to strike (a person, usually a child) with the open hand, a slipper, etc., especially on the buttocks, as in punishment.

[nolongerIFBx]

You have your opinion, I have mine. I love how anti-spankers call it hitting, they like to do that to make it sound violent and "disgusting." I never felt that way about it even while it was happening. I knew why I was being spanked and I knew what I had done to deserve it. If my parents had tried some other lame method, I would have seen it as a victory and would have continued in my bad behavior. Funny thing that anti-spankers never mention is that even parents who may not spank can end up using their discipline method in an abusive way. Some lock their kids in closets, handcuff them to their beds, lock them in the basement, make them sit in time-out for hours on end. Absolutely ANY method for discipline can be turned into a horrible and abusive thing if done the wrong way, in an extreme manner, and out of anger.

I was also spanked as a child and I'm fine with it. I do believe it can be done incorrectly, done in anger, done excessively, etc. I have one sibling that spanks their children and one who does not so I get to see both options intimately. From that I believe that should I have children I would spank, but very little. There are times when I need my child to obey me not debate with them their best choice. I applaud teaching children early to make choices. "You cannot play outside at 10:00 pm. Would you rather watch TV or read a book?" But when they decide to let themselves out of the house and head out to cross the nearest highway and I see an 18 wheeler coming down the highway, I don't want to debate "Would you like to continue across the road or come back this way?" I need them to stop when I yell "Stop".

I see many parents who say, "Oh, I would never spank my child!" grab their child in anger and roughly make them to what they are told. In my opinion, that is abuse.

[thetabmeister]

I was spanked. My three siblings were spanked. We hated it. We hated it so much we would lie and get each other in trouble to get out of our own trouble.

We are all lazy and undisciplined. We have each had to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps since moving out and had to teach ourselves proper measures to handle, well, any problem, since we cannot "be spanked" for our issues now and we cannot spank others for their issues. We all struggle with abnormal reactions, laziness, disorganization, communication skills, and anger.

We were all, except maybe one of the brothers, sexually molested. At least two of us engaged in promiscuous behavior. Two of us attempted suicide. We all evince symptoms of clinical depression.

We've never been diagnosed or treated for any of the above, and only two of us even acknowledge these realities and make the connection to our barbaric method of being raised.

If you're not interpreting the "way [someone] who was spanked turned out" with the POSSIBILITIES of the above symptoms and results in mind, you WILL NOT SEE THEM. Because you are BLIND to your faults, wrongdoings, and the consequences of your actions.

When we were spanked (yes, it was for everything; it was always calmly and never done in anger so you can put that in your pipe and smoke it, pro-spank psychopaths), our parents called it "consequences"; subsequently, we never learned the true "consequences" for everything. We expected mommy and daddy to bail us out of everything, pop a spankin' on it and move on. Somebody tell me you know exactly what I'm talking about!

We all started out early adulthood lauding our parents and thinking they were really good parents and really loved us and did what was best for us. We thought that other people's parents, therefore, could not have been "as" good or loved "as" much because they weren't the same as our parents--taking into account the whole gamut of child-rearing methods used upon us, from spanking to micro-management of necklines, hemlines, music choices, and time spent in the shower (5 min. total, going in dressed, coming out dressed).

But the proof is in the pudding as 2xx said. After moving out and attending college / the military, for the first time, we started seeing the world as it really is and seeing other people who had learned lessons, come down their own journeys, and turned out how they turned out. And we realized that the way we were raised was not the only right way. There are many right ways, and I am thinking these days that MOST of what my parents did was actually--gasp--WRONG. It has been a long while coming to that decision. But having children of my own I am forced to evaluate WHAT I do and WHY, and I'm sorry, but "just because the parents did it" isn't good enough for me.

It shouldn't be good enough for you.

You should never stop questioning, learning, and seeking TRUTH.

/steps off soapbox/

P.S. Last year, when all four of us were over the age of 20, the truth about the extent of the sexual abuse we endured finally hit the fan and has helped more than ever to show us four siblings that something was very, very wrong with the way our parents raised us. I'm not saying that being spanked is what caused the abuse (caused us siblings to be abusers and conditioned us to be more easily abused) although I wouldn't be surprised if it was, but I am saying that the proof of how wacky and unrighteous our parents have turned out to be just confirms that they weren't being wise or godly or loving or knowledgeable by using their punishment of choice, spanking.

P.P.S. My parents always boasted that they were such great parents that we kids never, ever ever got time-outs or groundings. They had better ways to deal with it. My last spanking was at age 19. For the first time in my life I resisted her and told her if she didn't stop I'd call the cops. She didn't stop but my dad walked in just then and saved me. I moved out the next week and have had a non-relationship--we speak, but don't communicate or understand--since then. We always will.

P.P.P.S. (sorry) It has been a long, slow journey coming to the point of my above opinion. I most regretfully started out parenting my oldest, now four, by spanking him. I now use other methods and his behavior has improved dramatically as has my emotions and attitude. My wisdom has increased and my patience and love has grown. I have a baby daughter who will never have a hand laid on her and I can't tell you how darn proud I am of that. I am a Christian and I wholeheartedly agree that the Bible not only doesn't support or teach spanking but rather opposes it.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I, along with all 8 of my siblings were spanked, and we all turned out fine. I spanked my kids, they turned out fine and they spank/plan to spank as well. If I, or my kids, thought spanking were so horrible we wouldn't choose it ourselves. Although, the spankings I received and gave were done only in cases of blatant, in your face, disobedience and they were done calmly, with explanation and were never done in anger. There was also a time of reflection and talking about it and why it happened and how to avoid it in the future. Naturally at the time I didn't enjoy it when I was being spanked, but looking back on it, those were some of the most meaningful conversations I had with my parents following a spanking and after I was grown I thanked my parents for spankings and I am truly grateful that they loved me enough to spank me when I needed it. I know my siblings feel the same way. My kids have come to me and told me they appreciated the parenting they received, including the spankings and that is why they have chosen to also spank and I support them 100%.

Your comment doesn't really address my argument at all. Nevertheless, I'm going to respond because it brings up some other important points.

How do young kids learn? We know that role modelling is really important. Kids learn to act like their role models. Kids seek out love and closeness from parents. Kids also respond to a parent's emotions.

When parents spank, their children learn to use spanking to discipline their own children. It becomes hardwired into their brains as a normal, appropriate response. If you take a child from a spanking family and a child from a non-spanking family, the child from the spanking family is more likely to act out play scenes with dolls where a naughty child gets a spanking. As adults, they are more likely to see spanking as the needed response to a behavior. Think about it: this means that whether a child receives a spanking or not often depends less on the child's actions and needs, and more on whether or not the parent was spanked as a child.

As a child, you naturally want love and closeness from your parents, and you grew to associate this with the aftermath of the spankings.

I have no doubt that your parents loved you and meant well. Kids pick up on their parents' feelings. You grew to associate the spanking with being loved.

In other words - you really weren't learning and growing from the physical part of the discipline at all. Having someone else inflict pain wouldn't have had the same impact. Instead, you were responding to role modeling, receiving love and closeness and being aware of your parents' deep love for you.

Guess what? These are the building blocks for positive parenting! You build a strong relationship with your child, show them that you truly love them with all your heart, give them attention and affection and appreciation - and then be a positive role model, because your kids will WANT to be like you and will naturally take on your values and listen to you.

[thetabmeister]

I have to add one more thing: At the time that I and my sibs thought we "turned out fine," it was before we really realized the extent of our damage. And there isn't a certain age at which you "get it." You can be in denial about your problems, especially emotional and mental ones, for a long time, sometimes for the rest of your life. And the longer you think you're okay, the harder it will be to look objectively at yourself and the effects of your upbringing.

[formergothardite]

I was also spanked as a child and I'm fine with it. I do believe it can be done incorrectly, done in anger, done excessively, etc. I have one sibling that spanks their children and one who does not so I get to see both options intimately. From that I believe that should I have children I would spank, but very little. There are times when I need my child to obey me not debate with them their best choice. I applaud teaching children early to make choices. "You cannot play outside at 10:00 pm. Would you rather watch TV or read a book?" But when they decide to let themselves out of the house and head out to cross the nearest highway and I see an 18 wheeler coming down the highway, I don't want to debate "Would you like to continue across the road or come back this way?" I need them to stop when I yell "Stop".

I see many parents who say, "Oh, I would never spank my child!" grab their child in anger and roughly make them to what they are told. In my opinion, that is abuse.

And you can teach that without hitting them.

[Conuly]

But when they decide to let themselves out of the house and head out to cross the nearest highway and I see an 18 wheeler coming down the highway, I don't want to debate "Would you like to continue across the road or come back this way?" I need them to stop when I yell "Stop".

Wouldn't it be more effective to put a lock on the door so they can't just get out until they're old enough to understand not to go in the street?

[thetabmeister]

Please explain how you spanked without hitting your child.

THIS. ^^^ The closest answer I've ever gotten was a non-answer taking my question and twisting it to say that "my parents must have spanked me in anger." Yea, if you consider, cold, calm and calculated to be a form of anger (the real answer to that is not relevant here, when it is obvious that pro-spankers are implying that spanking in anger must involve the red-hot kind of anger which would make THEIR spanking "hitting") See? Anyway, apparently spanking "not in anger" does not qualify as hitting. And yes, I have even spelled it out to some--so how is the physical form of striking with your hand or an implement not hitting? Would you want another adult to spank you for your wrongs? Would you want your spouse to? (not in the kinky sense) Would you want another child to spank your child? Would you want a stranger to spank your child? Would you want a policeman to spank you for breaking the law? This isn't meant to be funny or put anyone's minds in gutter, it's meant to show how utterly ridiculous both premises are, of spanking not being hitting and of spanking being okay in the first place. Because it's not.

People can and have been doing wrong things for centuries and humankind keeps going on. But the end never justifies the means. I am surprised how many so-called Christians espouse that when pointing to the results as proof that spanking is appropriate, but they'll not agree when say, you present them with a scenario like Robinhood types stealing from the rich to feed the poor. Oh, they love to say that the end doesn't justify the means then!

And please, of course spanking "works." It's called brainwashing and breaking the spirit, and if you don't think that works join the military and go to boot camp. Just because something works doesn't mean it is good, right, or justified. Human rights. Goodness.