YLCF: harassment = this man is complimenting you!

[LucySnowe]

http://ylcf.org/2012/04/qa-saying-no-to-a-relationship/

Once a guy followed me from a store and asked me out in the parking lot. Talk about awkward! I was very upset and uncomfortable with it afterwards (I think I stuttered out a “no, thank you†before quickly getting into my car). Through it I realized the importance of seeing a guy’s pursuit of you as a compliment no matter how awkward it is. They saw you and liked you and by pursuing you they are paying you a compliment. God made guys to pursue us, so when we turn them down we need to do it in a respectful way that won’t crush them. Never attack them when you turn them down. In your explanation be honest, but don’t drag it out. Proverbs 10:19 says that in a multitude of words sin is not lacking.

Italics in original.

I feel we've covered this all recently in that thread where The Gift of Fear was mentioned a lot because of the insane advice to tamp down your gut instinct, but I felt the need to say 'holy crap, are you serious?'

Because obviously if some guy is trailing you, it's your responsibility not to hurt his feelings.

There isn't even a hint of suggestion here that she should be more concerned for her own safety than for being polite to a stranger - but then, I guess the answer to THAT would be that she shouldn't be in a parking lot by herself anyway.

[JesusFightClub]

Christ.

I can tell her from personal experience sometimes "man following you and asking you out" means "man about to do bad things to you".

Why or how can you deliberately crush anyone's feelings anyway? They are going to feel upset and crushed because you said no. Unless you go with every man you meet, how is this avoidable?

I don't at the moment, but usually I have a no.1 cut and I get approached by skinheads who usually say something about it's nice to see a woman representing and then ask me out. So I guess fundie advice would be "date lots of skinheads". Or "keep your heart pure by never speaking to a man". Or...oh fuck knows, I am utterly confused.

[alysee]

Christ.

I can tell her from personal experience sometimes "man following you and asking you out" means "man about to do bad things to you".

Why or how can you deliberately crush anyone's feelings anyway? They are going to feel upset and crushed because you said no. Unless you go with every man you meet, how is this avoidable?

I don't at the moment, but usually I have a no.1 cut and I get approached by skinheads who usually say something about it's nice to see a woman representing and then ask me out. So I guess fundie advice would be "date lots of skinheads". Or "keep your heart pure by never speaking to a man". Or...oh fuck knows, I am utterly confused.

Obviously in her "perfect world" there are no murderers or rapists...I would avoid being followed by a man (even a nice looking man a la Ted Bundy or Paul Bernardo) I am 100lbs there is no way I can get away so I avoid these situations by talking on the phone, not going out alone, not listening to my IPod when its dark out. These people are so ignorant I can hardly stand it.

[Sola]

Wow, if he'd have followed me home from the store like that, he'd have got pepper sprayed...

[alysee]

Wow, if he'd have followed me home from the store like that, he'd have got pepper sprayed...

I really wish we had a LIKE button! I wish I had pepper spray. All I have is my keys between my fingers to jab in someones eye...not sure if it would work but I'd definitely try if I was put in that situation.

[LucySnowe]

Keys between your fingers can backfire because they can cut like hell into the soft areas, but if you hold one key firmly you can use it to jab at the attacker, and also it means you have your key ready to go into the lock ASAP so less time fumbling around at the door.

[MamaJunebug]

Oh Lord! Have mercy!!!

Circa 1969, and we're learning that rape is not a woman's fault.

And we're in a self-defense class, and we're told to strike at the most vulnerable parts we can reach - the eyes, in one case.

A student protests, "But I just want him to stop, I don't wanna hurt him!"

The instructor goggles, "Lady, he very much wants to hurt you!"

...."I didn't want to hurt his feelings..." ...."I didn't want to make a scene....." ...so gasped the victims who survived with their lives, but with battered bodies, inside and out....

The site shared by the OP? It's all so 1960s, pre-"women's lib." It seriously makes me sick to my stomach.

That said, thank you, OP, for sharing it. We need to know that the fight still needs to go on, to educate women to the facts of the matters. Good. Lord.

[erunerune]

zomg, it really scares me to think that young girls are reading this type post and taking it to heart. The fact that the no one at YLCF has the common sense to say "If a stranger follows you out to the parking lot and makes you uncomfortable, get the fuck away and be as rude as you fucking need to be!" blows my mind. And unfortunately this is only one of the more obvious examples of how out-of-touch with reality YLCF is.....

[CanadianHippie]

Wow, someone really screwed up in teaching her about her instincts. I really don't know what to say other than that. To blatantly ignore your instinct because you don't want to hurt someone's feelings is no way to protect yourself.

[polabear]

One of the biggest takeaways from The Gift of Fear is that a decent guy won't put you in an uncomfortable situation. He won't follow you to your car in a dark parking lot. He won't insist on "helping" when you say no. And, if a guy does accidentally do something that makes you uncomfortable, he'll immediately back off. And if a guy doesn't care that he's making you uncomfortable then he doesn't deserve to have his feelings protected.

That whole post reminds me of when I was in 4th and 5th grade. I developed before most of my classmates, and so spent a few years dealing with guys snapping my bra, trying to look up my skirts, and just all around making me uncomfortable with teasing. When I complained to my mom, she said "OH, they do that because they LIKE you!"

[sea_gale]

FFS. Personal safety comes before hurt feelings, always. Could somebody compose a nice comment telling this to the young ladies? I would, but I'd probably include too much Glaswegian punctuation for it to pass.

[erunerune]

I clearly can't post without exceeding my f-bomb quota. Maybe someone more refined than myself should do it. I hear that *actual adult women* run the YLCF site, which makes me want to swear even more. Way to provide guidance to the youngsters, pearl-clutching YLCF matrons.

[RR88]

Absolutely, polabear. A genuinely good guy won't creep others out. And creeps who bother you shouldn't be treated kindly, since this only keeps them around longer. One time, a weird man was looking me up and down at a bus stop in Detroit and talking to me. He asked if I had a boyfriend, so I told him "Yes" in the hopes that he would leave me alone. Instead, he asked, "Why isn't your boyfriend here to keep you safe?"

I took that as a threat and replied, "Don't worry; my knife will keep me safe." He was irritated but left me alone from then on. Had I been nice to him so as not to "crush" his feelings, I might not have gotten rid of him and something seriously wrong may have occurred. (And yes, I really was carrying a knife, as well as pepper spray.)

[LucySnowe]

FFS. Personal safety comes before hurt feelings, always. Could somebody compose a nice comment telling this to the young ladies? I would, but I'd probably include too much Glaswegian punctuation for it to pass.

I did actually have a comment window open and started typing, but I couldn't write coherently so closed it all down.

[doggie]

I am sure she thought god would protect her.

[margiebargie]

One of the biggest takeaways from The Gift of Fear is that a decent guy won't put you in an uncomfortable situation. He won't follow you to your car in a dark parking lot. He won't insist on "helping" when you say no. And, if a guy does accidentally do something that makes you uncomfortable, he'll immediately back off. And if a guy doesn't care that he's making you uncomfortable then he doesn't deserve to have his feelings protected.

That whole post reminds me of when I was in 4th and 5th grade. I developed before most of my classmates, and so spent a few years dealing with guys snapping my bra, trying to look up my skirts, and just all around making me uncomfortable with teasing. When I complained to my mom, she said "OH, they do that because they LIKE you!"

Absolutely yes on the bolded part. Normal guys make mistakes and might inadvertantly spook you, but they pick up on that. Scary creepers want you to ignore your instincts and will continue to invade your space.

I didn't read the whole post on YCLF. It could be that parking lot guy was just clueless and didn't realize how creepy it is to follow someone out to their car like that. It could be that he was a bad guy. I don't know. The problem is she doesn't know either. It's very bad that she's second guessing herself. It's foolish to come away from that experience thinking, "Gee, I should have been more polite". She should be thinking about how to be more safety concious. She should not ignore that uncomfortable feeling. If she insists on believing in god, then she needs to believe that god gave her instincts to protect herself, not some stranger's squishy little feelings.

My daughter is only 5, but already we're teaching her to use her "stern voice". She has to learn how to stand up for herself and its my job to teach her. These fundie parents fail their daughters in so many ways. It's frustrating to watch.

[OohLaLa]

Absolutely yes on the bolded part. Normal guys make mistakes and might inadvertantly spook you, but they pick up on that. Scary creepers want you to ignore your instincts and will continue to invade your space.

I didn't read the whole post on YCLF. It could be that parking lot guy was just clueless and didn't realize how creepy it is to follow someone out to their car like that. It could be that he was a bad guy. I don't know. The problem is she doesn't know either. It's very bad that she's second guessing herself. It's foolish to come away from that experience thinking, "Gee, I should have been more polite". She should be thinking about how to be more safety concious. She should not ignore that uncomfortable feeling. If she insists on believing in god, then she needs to believe that god gave her instincts to protect herself, not some stranger's squishy little feelings.

My daughter is only 5, but already we're teaching her to use her "stern voice". She has to learn how to stand up for herself and its my job to teach her. These fundie parents fail their daughters in so many ways. It's frustrating to watch.

I really really wish my parents would have thought like you. It took me a long time to realize exactly what people on this board are saying, that I am under NO responsibility to spare a man's feelings when he is making me uncomfortable. I grew up with this ridiculous fear of appearing rude and would sometimes engage the creeps for way too long because I didn't know how to be assertive enough to tell them to take a hike. Thankfully I never dealt with any truly dangerous situations, but some of the looks, comments, following, etc., were still enough to make me feel violated and insecure. Even then, I would never, EVER have taken it as a complement, creeps like that always made me extremely uncomfortable. I just can't wrap my mind around telling girls to acknowledge any male's attention as a complement. It makes me sick. What's next, "keep sweet" until you get raped or killed?? Apologize to a rapist for tempting him? This is fucking scary.

[RR88]

I wonder if these people would feel the way they do (about being nice to creeps) if they had ever been mugged or assaulted. Women especially should have no compunctions about keeping themselves safe. If that means rudeness or even violence, so be it.

[erunerune]

The poster of that particular piece has changed her "example" due to comments pointing out that bending over backwards for creepy dudes might hurt more than just someone's speshul snowflake feelings.

[BelieveinScience]

Wow, someone really screwed up in teaching her about her instincts. I really don't know what to say other than that. To blatantly ignore your instinct because you don't want to hurt someone's feelings is no way to protect yourself.

This! Not trusting your gut is a good way to get yourself killed. What bad advice to be giving!

[salsa]

I suppose the appropriate response would be to thank the creeper - uh - man - uh - guy - uh male human being for his attention and give him my father's phone number so he could ask his permission to court me. The guy is just doing what God made him to do and won't rape me because I'll be dressed modestly.

[PennySycamore]

This! Not trusting your gut is a good way to get yourself killed. What bad advice to be giving!

That recently happened to a young teacher and single mom who graduated from my daughter's small college in Vermont. She got a call from a couple who used to plow her driveway. They said they'd had car trouble and asked her for help. She felt that something wasn't right about their call and she had the foresight to call her ex-boyfriend to tell him where she was going and why. She didn't follow her gut completely though. She was raped and murdered by snowplow guy. Her 2-year old likely saw his mom's murder. Some students my daughter knew had had this teacher for high school sciences.

I noticed that they are holding a self-defense class for women students at her school and a group of men met at the Congregational Church in St Johnsbury to help prevent male violence against women.

[LucySnowe]

The poster of that particular piece has changed her "example" due to comments pointing out that bending over backwards for creepy dudes might hurt more than just someone's speshul snowflake feelings.

Thankfully.

My comment (which I did eventually write) still hasn't been posted, though, and I doubt it will be...I'm guessing at least one other FJer commented, not that we have the lock on The Gift of Fear.

[ellerigby]

One of the biggest takeaways from The Gift of Fear is that a decent guy won't put you in an uncomfortable situation. He won't follow you to your car in a dark parking lot. He won't insist on "helping" when you say no. And, if a guy does accidentally do something that makes you uncomfortable, he'll immediately back off. And if a guy doesn't care that he's making you uncomfortable then he doesn't deserve to have his feelings protected.

That whole post reminds me of when I was in 4th and 5th grade. I developed before most of my classmates, and so spent a few years dealing with guys snapping my bra, trying to look up my skirts, and just all around making me uncomfortable with teasing. When I complained to my mom, she said "OH, they do that because they LIKE you!"

QFT. Decent guys make mistakes (some guys are just clueless), but in my experience, they are mortified when they find out they made me uncomfortable and really want to learn how not to do it again. Some guys, in my experience particularly large ones, are total sweethearts and just don't realize how intimidating their size can be.

However, non-decent guys don't care about being intimidating and are generally the ones that whine about being butt hurt because a girl didn't appreciate their stalking.

And as for the second paragraph, I also developed early and experienced similar harassment. Luckily, my mom never said anything like that, but a teacher did. Be flattered! They like you! Grrrrrrr. :evil:

[Austin]

After the assault I experienced, my reactions are strong to anyone approaching me. I get loud and I get aggressive fast. I need to know immediately if they're going to retreat or if I'm going to have a fight on my hands. I'm sure I've scared the hell out of a few men over the years, but having someone walk away mumbling about what a crazy bitch I am causes me no loss of sleep and is definitely better than the alternative.