Willis Family 3: Toby Is Evil

[usedbicycle]

@FleeJanaFree Your insistence on getting an exact age is honestly creepy and unsettling. Have some basic decency and stop asking. I've never been confrontational on FJ before, but this hits too close to home. 

[IntrinsicallyDisordered]

1 hour ago, usedbicycle said:

@FleeJanaFree Your insistence on getting an exact age is honestly creepy and unsettling. Have some basic decency and stop asking. I've never been confrontational on FJ before, but this hits too close to home. 

I have been reading these threads with great emotional turmoil and empathy and thankfulness for other posters sharing their experiences and thoughts (I am having trouble formulating my own at this time) and these questions are like a punch in the face.  @FleeJanaFree Jessica might not be reading here but some of us who are were also sexually abused at 3 and your need for the details, even just mulling over the possibilities publicly, even if you are "just asking questions" is intensely triggering.

[Front Hugging Fiend]

Interrupting the current train of thought to say that I saw Jessica's husband sharing her website/post on social media and I am so touched by how supportive everyone has been. It looks like she married into a wonderful family. I followed various links he put on his website: https://www.fisherai.com/ and that's how I found his posts. I won't directly link here. 

Side note, some beautiful photos of some of The Willis Clan performing. Looks like Sean and Jess have been following the Clan to quite a few shows, which is lovely to see. He's taking photos and I think she's been selling her leather goods, too. 

I know they're all going to come through this in their own time and in their own way. They've got this. 

[Briefly]

18 hours ago, IntrinsicallyDisordered said:

I have been reading these threads with great emotional turmoil and empathy and thankfulness for other posters sharing their experiences and thoughts (I am having trouble formulating my own at this time) and these questions are like a punch in the face.  @FleeJanaFree Jessica might not be reading here but some of us who are were also sexually abused at 3 and your need for the details, even just mulling over the possibilities publicly, even if you are "just asking questions" is intensely triggering.

Sometimes those questions are very hard to respond to, both because they can be triggering and also because maybe it's nobody else's business and the asker is just trying to be nosy or mean.  I'm not saying that @FleejanaFree is being that way. I'm simply relaying the way that it would make me feel if I were someone who had been through something traumatic like that, exactly that, as a child.  Which I am, and even typing that is hard.

[NakedKnees]

Sorry to pile on, but I somewhat understand @FleeJanaFree's perspective. Those are the types of questions I could see myself asking about this situation maybe five or ten years ago. As an adult, I needed to learn about where to draw the line. I'm not proud of it, but I don't think it's uncommon either. I now know those types of questions are inappropriate and triggering, but it took some time for me to learn it. 

Feel free to "move along" this post. I sort of feel that way about it myself. Victims shouldn't need to educate the people around them on this, so I'd recommend a "when in doubt, don't ask" approach when a question might be inappropriate and/or painful.

[livinginthelight]

FWIW, sometimes I think people ask "information - type" questions as a way of distancing themselves from the emotions. "I'll focus on the facts so I don't have feel it." Which may or may not apply here. You also see this when people die.

[DaisyD]

8 minutes ago, livinginthelight said:

FWIW, sometimes I think people ask "information - type" questions as a way of distancing themselves from the emotions. "I'll focus on the facts so I don't have feel it." Which may or may not apply here. You also see this when people die.

Or asking a soldier if they killed/lost anyone.... I suspect it's usually a lack of knowing what else to say or not knowing how to relate.

[IntrinsicallyDisordered]

3 hours ago, Briefly said:

Sometimes those questions are very hard to respond to, both because they can be triggering and also because maybe it's nobody else's business and the asker is just trying to be nosy or mean.  I'm not saying that @FleejanaFree is being that way. I'm simply relaying the way that it would make me feel if I were someone who had been through something traumatic like that, exactly that, as a child.  Which I am, and even typing that is hard.

Yes, I know this isn't about me, but as someone who has abuse as her first memories, it flashes me back to being 3 years old and I am putting this under a spoiler to avoid triggering someone else.

Spoiler

Having a grown man attempting to penetrate me and not getting very far because I WAS THREE and always have that memory while always telling myself - in part because of self preservation, in part because I constantly read and understand that there are degrees and it's important to be accurate, wouldn't want a man accused of rape if it was just molestation, which is horrible but you know, it's not rape after all - that it was just molestation.  

I don't know what exactly happened to Jessica.  And I shouldn't know unless she chooses to tell me.  I get that people are trying to understand, but it can come across as purient and a way of discounting the victim - maybe as self preservation on their parts, because they don't want to believe it happens, it's too upsetting  "Are we sure, is that even possible"....it's possible.  Anything is possible because evil does what it wants and benefits from doubt.

[Carm_88]

Those poor kids. My heart breaks for them all. I hope that they find healing now that Toby is out of their lives. Jesus Christ what a disgusting monster.

[Firebird]

I have a hard time when people say it was "just molestation" when referring to forced sexual acts. Im 26 and im really struggling with defining what happened to me as a teenager. My dad would mock me for not looking on him when he was naked after a shower, and would tell me I was a prude because I didnt want to be naked in front of him. He would grab my butt.  He would tell me if he were my boyfriend he would have gotten me pregnant by now. He would want to cuddle and snuggle and told me I was uptight for being uncomfortable with it. He would ask details of sexual encounters with boyfriends and what they did to me. He flirted with a friend that was living with us. It was really confusing. I thought it was normal. It really hurts.  I know it wasn't rape and I understand that rape is way worse, but all that still really freaking hurts. On top of that was a lot of manipulation and control and emotional abuse. My sister has been affected even worse than I have.  He was more graphic with her.  Neither of us were raped, but it still hurts. I'm sorry if I'm rambling of crazy but I had a martini and I can't hold my liquor.

[DaisyD]

@Firebird As the daughter of one and best friend of another person with really confusing and painful childhoods that weren't legally criminal, but awful just the same, I say, I see you. I acknowledge that what happened to you was real, and not right. There are a lot of things that one person can do to another that are damaging (horribly so) and yet, not illegal. I wish peace and healing for you and your sister. Know that you are no alone. Many women/girls experience incredibly uncomfortable and inappropriate encounters that they can't really classify. It's not your fault. 

[IntrinsicallyDisordered]

9 hours ago, Firebird said:

I have a hard time when people say it was "just molestation" when referring to forced sexual acts. Im 26 and im really struggling with defining what happened to me as a teenager. My dad would mock me for not looking on him when he was naked after a shower, and would tell me I was a prude because I didnt want to be naked in front of him. He would grab my butt.  He would tell me if he were my boyfriend he would have gotten me pregnant by now. He would want to cuddle and snuggle and told me I was uptight for being uncomfortable with it. He would ask details of sexual encounters with boyfriends and what they did to me. He flirted with a friend that was living with us. It was really confusing. I thought it was normal. It really hurts.  I know it wasn't rape and I understand that rape is way worse, but all that still really freaking hurts. On top of that was a lot of manipulation and control and emotional abuse. My sister has been affected even worse than I have.  He was more graphic with her.  Neither of us were raped, but it still hurts. I'm sorry if I'm rambling of crazy but I had a martini and I can't hold my liquor.

I loathe the term molestation/molested.   The first definition of "molest" is "to bother, interfere with, to annoy". Fuck that.   Maybe when more people seem like they fully grasp the "to sexually assault" definition I will feel okay using it.  I've been assaulted as a child, a teenager, and an adult.  Only one of those times would qualify legally as rape.  All were violations and wrong and downplaying them in my head as not so bad led to a lot of extra pain.  It's not a competition and we need to remember we can support other victims without dismissing ourselves.  But it's hard.

What happened to you was awful and abusive and I am so sorry.

[IrishCarrie]

I've mentioned before on here that I work in a prison that houses sex offenders, but I've been careful not to identify myself by naming the specific work I do. But it's probably ok to say that it's on the therapeutic side - doing one-to-one work with men to try and help them acknowledge/address their offending. 

One of my tasks is to prepare risk assessment reports on them before they're due to re-enter the community at the end of their sentences, and this includes an assessment of how realistic they are about the harm that their behaviour caused.

If a man can't name his actions appropriately, that's a huge red warning. Using 'molested' or 'touched' or 'interfered with' or calling the contact with a child 'sex' or 'lovemaking' are all WRONG! It's sexual assault or rape. There's no wiggle room on that!! Either the victim was an adult who didn't consent or a child who couldn't consent.

I get that it can be the hardest thing in the world to actually name it your action for what it was and face up to that. But it's not nearly as hard as it was for the victim to experience it, so you know... Man up, name what you did and do the fricken work to get to the bottom of why you did it.

Anyway, rant over. Sorry if any of that is triggering to people who've had bad experiences with these type of men. I guess I just wanted to say that I completely agree with the people above who say the words matter, and the names we call things matter.

[CurlyWurly]

10 hours ago, Firebird said:

I have a hard time when people say it was "just molestation" when referring to forced sexual acts. Im 26 and im really struggling with defining what happened to me as a teenager. My dad would mock me for not looking on him when he was naked after a shower, and would tell me I was a prude because I didnt want to be naked in front of him. He would grab my butt.  He would tell me if he were my boyfriend he would have gotten me pregnant by now. He would want to cuddle and snuggle and told me I was uptight for being uncomfortable with it. He would ask details of sexual encounters with boyfriends and what they did to me. He flirted with a friend that was living with us. It was really confusing. I thought it was normal. It really hurts.  I know it wasn't rape and I understand that rape is way worse, but all that still really freaking hurts. On top of that was a lot of manipulation and control and emotional abuse. My sister has been affected even worse than I have.  He was more graphic with her.  Neither of us were raped, but it still hurts. I'm sorry if I'm rambling of crazy but I had a martini and I can't hold my liquor.

I'm so sorry that this happened to you but I want you to be aware that you're still belittling your experience. There's a thing that we all do where we (understandably) compare our experiences to other people's, but it can quickly turn into what's referred to as 'the olympics of suffering' where you rank how yourself compared to what happened to other people, and in so doing often delegitimise what you went through. I'd encourage you to not focus on that. What happened to you was shitty and awful and no-one else's experience needs to devalue you or what you went through.

[Firebird]

@DaisyD thank you for the understanding. It means a lot when people can just accept what you say.

@CurlyWurly

I do tend to belittle my experience. Thank you for pointing it out to me. I can go overboard with trying to keep things in perspective and swing the other way. I run in some circles that are very conservative Christian types and that was my upbringing. Its hard to even admit my dad wasn't perfect without being told its my duty to forgive and still have a relationship with him. Escpecially as my dad had a very good outward public appearance. People I know brag about how horrible their families are and how good they are to still have a relationship with them. My one pastor gave me the book boundaries.  I need to keep reading it.

[Briefly]

4 hours ago, Firebird said:

@DaisyD thank you for the understanding. It means a lot when people can just accept what you say.

@CurlyWurly

I do tend to belittle my experience. Thank you for pointing it out to me. I can go overboard with trying to keep things in perspective and swing the other way. I run in some circles that are very conservative Christian types and that was my upbringing. Its hard to even admit my dad wasn't perfect without being told its my duty to forgive and still have a relationship with him. Escpecially as my dad had a very good outward public appearance. People I know brag about how horrible their families are and how good they are to still have a relationship with them. My one pastor gave me the book boundaries.  I need to keep reading it.

I don't like labels for things in some instances.  I don't use the word molestation for what happened to me at the hands of the father of a friend of mine when I was 7 - it was considerably worse than "molestation" as the term is frequently used.  I am not trying to belittle what you went through, that is just my my opinion of the word itself.  What happened to you was horrible, no matter what it's called.  What does matter is that you know that you were not at fault. It sounds like you did get help.  It has always made me mad when I'm told that I "have" to forgive anyone for anything because that is up to me. If I am able to forgive someone, then it's got to be on my timelline.  I'm probably not wording what I want to say very well. 

[molecule]

Firebird, I'm so sorry that you experienced all that. Your dad was wrong, he was creepy, and he violated your sense of trust and safety. It was a big deal, regardless if what anyone else may have suffered.

I run in some circles that are very conservative Christian types and that was my upbringing. Its hard to even admit my dad wasn't perfect without being told its my duty to forgive and still have a relationship with him.

The people who are telling you this are wrong. If you are Christian, it is good to strive for forgiveness because the process of getting to that point can help you release bitterness and resentment. Forgiveness is a letting go of the power that the other person's actions have over you. It is good for *you* to be free of those things. However, forgiveness never requires you to have a relationship with the person you've forgiven. A natural consequence of violating the boundaries of a relationship is that the relationship is damaged. All their advice does is add guilt onto what you already feel. Your dad did something wrong. You don't have to have a relationship with him, and forgiveness has nothing to so with that. Your dad is reaping what he sowed.

Oh, and yes, read Boundaries. It can give you good tools and language for not letting people guilt you into things.

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

Forgiveness is over rated.

Sometimes you can just move on.

 

[Pecansforeveryone]

The theology of "high pressure forgiveness" bothered me a lot when I was still involved in evangelical Christianity. It can be used as a club over victims heads. It's also breathtakingly presumptuous for those who never experienced sexual abuse/trauma to lecture victims on duty to forgive. Where do they get off? 

[SilverBeach]

On 4/20/2018 at 7:58 PM, Firebird said:

I know it wasn't rape and I understand that rape is way worse,

There are no bronze, silver, or gold medals for these horrible events or the pain and suffering that they cause. You have been violated and that is enough. Never compare your trauma to anyone else or minimize what was done to you. I say this as a child sexual abuse victim at the hands of my stepfather, who did not penetrate but did a lot of other things that I did not characterize as sexual abuse until I was middle aged because I wasn't "raped". I was wrong. Take good, gentle care of yourself.

[SilverBeach]

There is never a duty to forgive anybody or have a relationship with them after they violate you, why would anybody say such bullshit to a sexual abuse victim? That would be stupid, especially when the perpetrator expresses no remorse and hasn't even asked for forgiveness and is likely still dangerous. Fucking religious people make me sick sometimes. Forgiveness to me is no longer expecting restitution from the wrongdoer, writing it off like a bad debt. God can do the rest. What helped me heal was realizing I was innocent, didn't deserve what happened to me, and that I was victimized by a sick asshole. I didn't need to be ashamed, that evil man did. Imma step away for a minute, getting riled up.

Edited May 4, 2018 by SilverBeach

[front hugs > duggs]

I think another thing (trying to word correctly as to not offend anyone) is realizing how much of an impact emotional abuse can have on a child as well. Or emotional neglect. I have recently begun therapy as my anxiety has been off the charts (among other reasons), and my therapist believes I've had a traumatic childhood based on the things I have said to her.  I would have never used "trauma" or "neglect" to describe my childhood - I had food on the table, a roof over my head, and was not ever touched sexually or harmfully.

By NO means am I trying to say this is worse than sexual or physical abuse, but like @Firebird, at 28 years old, I'm only just beginning to realize and comprehend that things that happened to me as a child were 1) not okay and 2) not my fault. 

[Firebird]

   This has been very empowering. Lots of Love towards you all  thanks!

[Briefly]

On 5/3/2018 at 11:08 PM, SilverBeach said:

There is never a duty to forgive anybody or have a relationship with them after they violate you, why would anybody say such bullshit to a sexual abuse victim? That would be stupid, especially when the perpetrator expresses no remorse and hasn't even asked for forgiveness and is likely still dangerous. Fucking religious people make me sick sometimes. Forgiveness to me is no longer expecting restitution from the wrongdoer, writing it off like a bad debt. God can do the rest. What helped me heal was realizing I was innocent, didn't deserve what happened to me, and that I was victimized by a sick asshole. I didn't need to be ashamed, that evil man did. Imma step away for a minute, getting riled up.

My opinion is that quite often it's about blaming the victim. The victim is supposed to forgive the offender, because the offender isn't responsible, etc., Makes me furious, but victim blaming is very much alive and well.

[Front Hugging Fiend]

The Willis Clan has performing tons lately, fairly active on social media. Looks like Jenny's gotten married, but it's not public online yet so I won't be posting anything about it.

Also, Jessica just recently performed at a backyard concert put together by her cousin Chris Wright, and she performed a brand new song called My History. She introduces it as something she's written recently, one of the few songs she's written over the past couple years. It's very clear what the song is about.

In my opinion, she sounds stunning, it's a beautiful song, and I'm glad to hear she's doing well. And that's her husband up there with her - a solid support system. So great to see.