Seewalds 32: The Big If

[JoytotheWorld]

1 hour ago, Audrey2 said:

I feel sorry for whichever M kid who played teacher. My Mom knew from her first day of school in first grade (70 years ago) that she wanted to be a teacher, so she played school with dolls, and any siblings/cousins that she could corall to teach. (Her 2 or 3 closest female cousins reciprocated by making her play nurse. All 3 became nurses.) She taught in elementary classrooms, took a break to have kids, then went back for a Master's degree and taught junior high and high school students with learning differences. I knew I wanted to be in a school, and I also played school with siblings, dolls, and stuffed animals. How sad that a M kid seems to have such a love of teaching, yet will doubtfully be able to go to college to pursue this.

If it was Mack, she’ll be expected to homeschool her own brood of offspring (and most likely help Anna with all her younger siblings), so she’ll get to play teacher long term. If it was Michael or even Marcus, well, they’re SOL.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

17 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

I will say I feel badly for woman that choose  adoption. and what they have to go through  to make that decision but I can't really stomach the fact that people are saying that these women have a right to keep things from the adoptee. that it's their live and they don't have to justify the choices they made. 

it's not just their life though. it's the adoptee's life. the choices the mother's made effect that child.  should they be forced to meet the child I will go with no but I do think the child has a right to know who their father is.  they have a right to know their medical history and if they have siblings out there. 

One thing you are missing here is the deep, deep guilt laid on these women by their parents and probably the nuns whom she lived with while pregnant who took her child. I'm assuming he parents sent her to a "house for whores" where the bad girls go to have their bastards and are shamed, punished and tortured for daring breaking the #1 rule, NOT getting caught sinning. These places were cruel to young scared unwed moms, some of whom had been sexually assaulted by family  members and were being cast aside for nothing they did wrong, some were rapped by strangers/boyfriends and some willingly had sex with their partners, but they were all treated like dirty sinners. In the end it may be too much for her mom to take, and it isn't fair to her to bring it back up as if she's obligated to relive it. she was forced to give birth and forced to give him away, this is the only CHOICE she's been allowed.  And unfortunately her son needs to realize that, it isn't him that is the issue, but he's not really the victim here, his mother is.

[Ivycoveredtower]

11 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

One thing you are missing here is the deep, deep guilt laid on these women by their parents and probably the nuns whom she lived with while pregnant who took her child. I'm assuming he parents sent her to a "house for whores" where the bad girls go to have their bastards and are shamed, punished and tortured for daring breaking the #1 rule, NOT getting caught sinning. These places were cruel to young scared unwed moms, some of whom had been sexually assaulted by family  members and were being cast aside for nothing they did wrong, some were rapped by strangers/boyfriends and some willingly had sex with their partners, but they were all treated like dirty sinners. In the end it may be too much for her mom to take, and it isn't fair to her to bring it back up as if she's obligated to relive it. she was forced to give birth and forced to give him away, this is the only CHOICE she's been allowed.  And unfortunately her son needs to realize that, it isn't him that is the issue, but he's not really the victim here, his mother is.

I was talking more in generals and not about that specific case but I don't how you can say the Adoptee isn't a victim in cases like above. the  poor  person doesn't even know who the other half of their DNA is. they don't know if they have other siblings out there. they don't even know their own biological family history. the case above I applaud the mom for being okay with her daughters interacting with the brother and I wasn't try to say anything bad about the mother or any bio mom in general  but my heart will always lay  more with the adoptee who got no CHOICE in the matter and many times has no to very little answers. 

[singsingsing]

6 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

I was talking more in generals and not about that specific case but I don't how you can say the Adoptee isn't a victim in cases like above. the  poor  person doesn't even know who the other half of their DNA is. they don't know if they have other siblings out there. they don't even know their own biological family history. the case above I applaud the mom for being okay with her daughters interacting with the brother and I wasn't try to say anything bad about the mother or any bio mom in general  but my heart will always lay  more with the adoptee who got no CHOICE in the matter and many times has no to very little answers. 

And whose fault is that, really? The woman who had to give him up? Or the societal system that abused, oppressed, and punished her, and left her so traumatized that the idea of communicating with the child she had to relinquish is unthinkable for her?

[Ivycoveredtower]

12 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

And whose fault is that, really? The woman who had to give him up? Or the societal system that abused, oppressed, and punished her, and left her so traumatized that the idea of communicating with the child she had to relinquish is unthinkable for her?

no matter where you want to place the blame be that the mother's choice or society's choices I will go down with the ship that adoptee's have a right to know the basic details of their very existence. bio parents names, medical history and if they have other family members. 

those are things I believe every person has a right to know. again  I'm not trying to rip down bio moms but either way you look at it won't be fair to someone and I'm more on the side of the adoptee for the reason's I have listed. 

[singsingsing]

8 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

no matter where you want to place the blame be that the mother's choice or society's choices I will go down with the ship that adoptee's have a right to know the basic details of their very existence. bio parents names, medical history and if they have other family members. 

those are things I believe every person has a right to know. again I am not saying anything I'm not trying to rip down bio moms but either way you look at it won't be fair to someone and I'm more on the side of the adoptee for the reason's I have listed. 

I'm very much for adoptees having the right to know where they came from, medical history, etc. I've poured countless hours of my own life into pursuing that very goal for someone, and succeeded. Both of his bio parents were dead (not unexpected) so there was no unwanted reunion there, but I did try to get in contact with a few of his other relatives, hoping to get more medical info, maybe even some photographs, etc. and was generally unsuccessful. I did not pursue it further. Because they also have a right to privacy. It's painful to be the adoptee searching, but it can be equally painful, confusing and frightening to be on the other side of it.

I think both adoptees and bio parents have the right to search for their lost relatives, and said lost relatives have the right to refuse contact/a relationship. It's way too complicated an issue for there to be any black and white answers. Most of these stories don't have shiny Hallmark Channel happy endings. There are a lot of hurt feelings, broken hearts, nasty surprises, and disappointed hopes involved for everyone. I wish there were a magical way to change the reality of that, but there just isn't. Life is messy. Adoption is generally more open now (at least in terms of the background info provided to adoptees), and I think that's a good thing, but unfortunately that can't be retroactively applied to adoptions that happened decades ago, in most cases.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

I Just thought about  something about 9/10 years ago when my kids were in day care, the baby sitter they went to coincidentally, lived on the street I grew up on. I was over one afternoon talking and someone was knocking on a door across the street, it was a Private Investigator and he was asking questions about people who used to live there. I just happened to know the people they were looking for as they lived there when I did. He was looking for a young woman about my age who had been adopted, her birth parents were looking for her. I didn't remember the girl, I knew they had 4 kids but the oldest boy was like 10 years younger than I was. He gave us both his card and said if we knew anyone or anything call him and he left.  A couple weeks later I found the card while talking to my mother, she asked me if I remember this little girl, as soon as she said her name I remembered it, she had died when she was 4 (I was 7 she was my brothers age).  I looked up some info on the name of the card the guy gave me and he was legit, so I called him and told him that he should stop looking for the parents, the little girl died when she was 4 years old, there was nothing to more tell, other than she was very wanted and very loved.  He asked if I knew her name, I did and I told him that & where she was buried, and he thanked me.  I never spoke to him again so I don't know what happened. I don't think he ever called the adopted family as they never mentioned it to anyone.   But he had her name and the cemetery she was buried in so it would have been simple enough from there to find out anything else. I thought the birth parents had a right to know their daughter had died, but in the short life she had she was loved, well cared for and didn't suffer from any abuse, she just got sick and they couldn't save her.  It was very surreal thing to remember and tell someone else.  I'm glad I didn't have to talk tot he Bio parents, that would have been really hard.

[Four is Enough]

3 hours ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

I was talking more in generals and not about that specific case but I don't how you can say the Adoptee isn't a victim in cases like above. the  poor  person doesn't even know who the other half of their DNA is. they don't know if they have other siblings out there. they don't even know their own biological family history. the case above I applaud the mom for being okay with her daughters interacting with the brother and I wasn't try to say anything bad about the mother or any bio mom in general  but my heart will always lay  more with the adoptee who got no CHOICE in the matter and many times has no to very little answers. 

Bolding mine. The point you are missing here, @Ivycoveredtower, is that the adoptee's birth mother may have been as much of a    victim.. She may have been raped, as stated before, or she may have had an indiscretion, which happens, but during the time of her pregnancy, she was shamed, called a whore, taunted, told she was no good, told no"decent" man would have her, and those months of trauma  have probably stayed with her  for her entire life. Small wonder she would not want to be reminded of that time.. perhaps she does not want to display her "shame" or at least her discomfort, in front of the adoptee.. It is sad to think, but  not every adoption story has the happy reunification ending.

[Jessesgirl]

6 hours ago, nausicaa said:

Just to put some things in perspective. In Ireland in the 1970s, not only were abortions illegal, so was contraception. This woman really had no choice in the matter of bringing this child into the world. So basically you are arguing that anyone who has ever had sex has a responsibility for a child. Also, we don't know the circumstances under which this child was conceived, how much coercion happened, and how old the parties were. You are really painting people you've never met with a very broad, very severe, anti-woman, anti-sex brush.

And...way to completely turn off new posters from FJ. 

I appreciate you putting things into perspective and explaining the climate of 1970’s Ireland better than I could have. My mom was raised in a strict Irish Catholic household and was made to feel incredibly ashamed after she became pregnant. I know this because When I first found out about my brother and my sis and I asked her about it, she admitted it was true and exclaimed, “I’m so ashamed!” I think she carried those feelings of shame with her for her entire life. It’s amazing how different Ireland is today. Many of my cousins live with their significant others and have babies without being married and now it seems to be much more accepted. It’s amazing how much attitudes can change in just a couple of generations. 

[Jessesgirl]

6 hours ago, Ais said:

@Jessesgirl I had clicked on to FJ and saw your comments just as the end credits rolled in the Judi Dench film "Philomena". If you haven't seen it it's the true story of one Irish woman's journey to trace her son who was adopted from a mother and baby home. I've seen it a dozen times and it still makes me cry hot angry tears. The history of babies born out of wedlock, adoption and the stigma attached to both is a stain that will never wash clean. Things may have improved slightly between the 50s and 70s but it was still more than bad enough to leave lasting scars on all sides. 

I'm glad your mother and your brother at least know of each other and I'm glad your brother has found sibling bonds. Giving her son up wouldn't have been an easy decision and staying separate from him now won't be an easy decision either. But if your mother was able to raise two daughters who are compassionate and empathetic enough to embrace a new sibling, support their parent, see all sides of the adoption story and refuse to condemn someone for the decisions they made in good faith then I can't see how she can be anything but a good person. Sending love and hugs to you all x

Thank you for your kind, encouraging words. I haven’t seen the movie (not really a big movie person) but i think I will have to make a point to see it. Btw, my moms name is Philomena too. How funny is that? 

[Ais]

@Jessesgirl fair warning it will probably make you cry, either through anger, frustration or sadness. There are a few other films made around the same time about the Magdalen laundries that might also shed some light on the Ireland of that time.

I think the fact that these mother and baby homes were so bad is part of the reason that attitudes changed as quickly as they did. Generation of women and children were ripped apart, mothers and babys died and there have been mass unmarked graves of infants discovered. And even for those that survived the effects continue to effect them daily. I looked after residents 10-20 years ago who had been in these laundries and then remained in social care their entire lives because they had either had breakdown s or were simply too institutionalised. More than one had never actually had a child, they had been placed in these institutions because of fears over their "Moral wellbeing", basically someone thought they might end up pregnant.

[subsaharanafrica]

11 hours ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

 

those are things I believe every person has a right to know. again  I'm not trying to rip down bio moms but either way you look at it won't be fair to someone and I'm more on the side of the adoptee for the reason's I have listed. 

Out of curiosity, do you feel the same way about people born with the assistance of donor eggs and/or sperm? 

[Meggo]

19 hours ago, Hisey said:

The earlier the better. Don't wait until the kid asks. I know parents who waited, and really didn't talk about the adoption much, because their daughter was "not interested." A rude family member told the child all sorts of details (true and untrue) when she was about nine. It shocked the kid and really damaged her trust.

That's a good point. I'll turn up the heat just a tiny bit on telling him. It's been a while since I brought out the "Tell me again about the night I was born" book (that is all about adoptive parents experiencing the call, the rush to the hospital etc). See if I can't spark it. 

We're lucky that MOST of our family is pretty well behaved about it - but Hubs family is giant so who knows what lurks. (I've corrected people who thought that he might have been born to a mom who was a substance abuser etc - she did no such thing - she was just a younger adult who got pregnant and made a decision for adoption. She didn't - and still doesn't - drink or do any drugs etc - she just ran into trouble) 

 

[AnnEggBlandHer?]

4 hours ago, subsaharanafrica said:

Out of curiosity, do you feel the same way about people born with the assistance of donor eggs and/or sperm? 

I’m curious how people feel about this too. I’m a 5-time egg donor and know there was at least one pregnancy that resulted from my first donation. I had to fill out an extensive medical history and have genetic testing, and once received a call (years after donation) from a nurse at the clinic asking about a medical issue that wasn’t previously discussed.

At the clinic that I went to, when a child born from donated eggs turns 18 they may inquire about the donor. I agreed that the clinic may reach out to me at that point, and they would basically mediate if contact was mutually desired. 

I know it’s different because the parents and children both have access to a medical history, but I do wonder how many children are told of their origins. It’s a more complicated process to explain to a young child. 

I don’t really feel like I have any claim or even connection to those children though, I provided a clump of cells but their mother carried them for 9 months and raised them. They’re not ‘mine’ by any stretch. 

[Carm_88]

16 hours ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

no matter where you want to place the blame be that the mother's choice or society's choices I will go down with the ship that adoptee's have a right to know the basic details of their very existence. bio parents names, medical history and if they have other family members. 

They can have the basic details of all that and it still doesn't mean that the biological Mom/Dad have to answer any of their other questions. It's hard for the adoptees but for many of the women who gave up kids in generations past, they gave them away never expecting to hear from them again. No one could have predicted the way that the world would have changed. So imagine going through 9 months of knowing that you would not keep the child, the shame of pregnancy and in many cases being sent away, being told that you are bad and wrong. The woman goes into labour, gives birth to a beautiful baby that will never be hers. If it were me, I think I'd have to bury it deep because I'd never be able to deal with that kind of pain. Many of these young women had to go back and pretend that it never happened. There were no support groups or understanding, just shame and guilt. So I will never put shame no guilt on these women now. They're incredibly strong. 

[SweetJuly]

How do children and the parents of children conceived with donor eggs/sperm and/or with the help of a surrogate deal with the entire matter in general?

Is it something that is discussed with the child at all?

What are the feelings and experiences of the parties involved?

Do people sometimes keep contact with the donors and/or surrogates, and do children have the desire to meet the woman who carried them for 9 months?

If someone here has been involved in donation or surrogacy and would feel comfortable to share their story, I would love to hear about it!

[ElToro]

I'm not involved but my cousin is the product of a sperm donation. He was never curious about his 'origin' (maybe because my father - his uncle- is a bit obsessed with geneaology... Another lovely way in which the universe laughs at us!) 

Where we live, at the time (early 1980s) there was nothing in place for tracing/sharing info unless both parties contacted the clinic directly.

He eventually got a bit curious and joined an internet group of 'donated' kids (from different clinics)...But a few details matched up and one of them turns out to be a bio half sibling (genetic testing is such a useful invention!) They have met up a lot since and have a really nice friendly relationship. Neither know their donor, and while I'm sure they both would like to meet him, neither mind too much. Perhaps both are genetically predisposed to being content with their lot- you never know!

[Ivycoveredtower]

7 hours ago, subsaharanafrica said:

Out of curiosity, do you feel the same way about people born with the assistance of donor eggs and/or sperm? 

yes. 

[viii]

It's too early to tell for my sister's children, but she has twins from a sperm donor. I think it will be an obvious conversation at some point, though, because my sister is married to a woman, lol. Whether or not the twins will feel inclined to reach out to the donor, I don't know yet. However, he has stated that he is okay with contact once they are eighteen (they're only 2 now) so we'll see. I think a lot of the reason people reach out because they want to know their origins such as ancestry, medical history, etc but with donors, that information is usually collected already. So if they do reach out, it might be more for emotional reasons. I guess we'll see in sixteen years or so, lol. 

[Four is Enough]

OK, @Ivycoveredtower, I'm going to carry this to the next extreme... do you feel the same way about people who have donated organs? Hearts, livers, kidneys, bone marrow? Does the recipient deserve to know all about them? Does the donor's family deserve to know about the recipient?

Until fairly recently, all of this information was kept private.. except for non-identifying information. (your donor was a 22 year old male who has no medical history of illness, who died in a car crash.)

[Ivycoveredtower]

1 minute ago, Four is Enough said:

OK, @Ivycoveredtower, I'm going to carry this to the next extreme... do you feel the same way about people who have donated organs? Hearts, livers, kidneys, bone marrow? Does the recipient deserve to know all about them? Does the donor's family deserve to know about the recipient?

Until fairly recently, all of this information was kept private.. except for non-identifying information. (your donor was a 22 year old male who has no medical history of illness, who died in a car crash.)

no because that is completely different, I mean some people would love to thank those people. but it's not the same with children you have other family out there you have whole medicial histories there are wholes sites dedicated to adoptee's and  other's like children from Egg sperm donation  who feel lost because they don't know their biological history or especially with adoptee the hows and why of their adoption. you see how it really effects them. like I said I feel for the mother's but my heart will always lie more with the adoptee. 

[AtlanticTug]

5 hours ago, SweetJuly said:

How do children and the parents of children conceived with donor eggs/sperm and/or with the help of a surrogate deal with the entire matter in general?

Is it something that is discussed with the child at all?

What are the feelings and experiences of the parties involved?

Do people sometimes keep contact with the donors and/or surrogates, and do children have the desire to meet the woman who carried them for 9 months?

If someone here has been involved in donation or surrogacy and would feel comfortable to share their story, I would love to hear about it!

I haven't been but I did 5 fresh IVF transfers and 3 frozen embryo transfers to have the 2 kids we have + 6 miscarriages along the way. Met many women through the fertility clinic and support groups who were using donated eggs or even adopting donated embryos. My therapist also treats infertile people/couples specifically and a large component of her practice is comprised of surrogates or women who are carrying adopted egg/embryo fetuses. We also had 7 embryos left over in the freezer when we were done having kids so we had to go through the process of deciding whether to donate them (we decided not to do embryo adoption ultimately). We just never felt 100% comfortable with it and we also did not want to impose this on our existing children - for example, would they have strictly biological siblings seeking them out later in life? We have no issue discussing with our kids how they were conceived and how wonderful we think science is, but we didn't really want to wade into "there  could be 7 more of you out there...somewhere." Our embryos are still in the freezer and our options are basically keep them there forever (at a cost), destroy them, or donate them to research.

While it always depends on individual circumstances, I can tell you that among therapists and psychological studies, the vastly preferred and recommended method is to be honest and tell the children as early as they are able to understand, obviously in an age-appropriate manner that they came from an adopted egg or embryo or sperm. The earlier it is done, the more normalized it becomes for them. My therapist said there are some situations where this may not be the best advice, often it is when the couple hails from very religious families or families where culturally this would be unacceptable and would carry negative repercussions for the child. The problem with secrecy in this instance is that you are also giving your child false information or a false impression regarding their health history which is fairly important information to have.

[ElToro]

@viii my aunt (cousin's mother!) also lives with another woman - since 1971- so there never was a 'father' either. While everyone is different, of course, I can't help but think that my cousin's relatively happy and fulfilled life, means that the details of his genetic origin aren't that important to him. Health-wise, genetics can be important, but so can a whole bunch of other things (income, lifestyle etc etc etc). 

[LacyMay]

13 hours ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

like I said I feel for the mother's but my heart will always lie more with the adoptee. 

I've been hesitant to get involved but I'm genuinely curious. 

We've all I think established and agreed on the fact that the sociocultural issues surrounding birth and adoption and reproductive choices (ie no access to birth control, illegal abortion, Magdalene laundries etc) make this a terrible terrible situation for the mother. I would go as far as to say most if not all of us are agreeing that some of these women faced coercion as well as physical and emotional abuse. 

That experience would be terrible at best but at worst it could cause severe long lasting trauma and emotional harm to the mother. And I don't think it's a stretch to assume some of these women suffer PTSS or PTSD from it. 

So in these cases where the events surrounding the adoption left the mother with long term trauma. 

How do you justify causing her more trauma? How do you just decide that the adoptee knowing is more important than the mental health of the mother?

I feel for the child I do. It's a shitty situation for both parties, but causing suffering to one to *possibly* help the other? It just seems to be going a little far. 

Like it or not women have the right to privacy. 

[Pretzel]

Has anyone noticed that Ben's sister Danielle is (apparently) attending Paul Mitchell Cosmetology School? I know cosmetology has been fundie approved ever since Clown College started theirs, but hey, Danielle doesn't look fundie there at all and it seems to be a good school. Glad she's got something going for herself! Do we know what happened to her sister Jessica Seewald? She is such a mystery. Ignorant fundie to the core, but apparently going through "fundie puberty". 

This will be very interesting. Poor Jessa. I think she would've done well at cosmetology school.