Florida High School Shooting

[quiversR4hunting]

A friend posted this on f/b, I finally had a time to read it. I posted it on my f/b and  I hope everyone on both sides of the argument read this opinion piece.

Oh my does it have a lot of points. Many of the things I proposed should work based on the research this guy pulled for the article. Here at FJ I bet we could dissect and bring out interesting points of this article for awhile. There is so much information it is too much for me to say which 1 part was an "ah ha!" moment for me because I had it many times. In general, when I read this article I don't understand how a gun enthusiast can intelligently debate some of the points.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/06/opinion/how-to-reduce-shootings.html

[JillyO]

21 minutes ago, quiversR4hunting said:

A friend posted this on f/b, I finally had a time to read it. I posted it on my f/b and  I hope everyone on both sides of the argument read this opinion piece.

Oh my does it have a lot of points. Many of the things I proposed should work based on the research this guy pulled for the article. Here at FJ I bet we could dissect and bring out interesting points of this article for awhile. There is so much information it is too much for me to say which 1 part was an "ah ha!" moment for me because I had it many times. In general, when I read this article I don't understand how a gun enthusiast can intelligently debate some of the points.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/06/opinion/how-to-reduce-shootings.html

Thanks for the link. I only just started reading the article, but the author has already hit one of the most important points why nothing ever changes:

Quote

People all over the world become furious and try to harm others, but only in the United States do we suffer such mass shootings so regularly; only in the United States do we lose one person every 15 minutes to gun violence.

American exceptionalism is so great that Americans seriously think that nothing the rest of the world has done to solve the problem will work for them. "Sure, all other developed countries have much stricter gun laws, but it wouldn't work here." "Sure, Australia managed to curve its gun problem after one mass shooting, but the same thing wouldn't work here." Etc. etc. I hear it all the time, even from proponents of stricter gun laws. As a trained sociologist, I understand that societal differences do impact outcomes. But let's face it, America: You're not that special. If it's worked for every other country, it's a least worth a try in America.

[Destiny]

6 hours ago, quiversR4hunting said:

I get your point but I don't agree. I think hunting guns can be purchased earlier than 21. 

Honest question: If we, as a society, have decided that they are too undeveloped to handle drinking at 18, why do we think they are able to handle a gun? Obviously, I don’t agree, but I’d like to understand why. 

For the record, I also think 18 is a bit young to join the military using this model.  If you are too young to have a beer, you are too young to be ordered to kill. I’m open to a societal discussion on these ages, but it seems the height of hypocrisy to me too tell an 18 year old that the are too young for a Hefeweizen but old enough to have weapons that kill and die for their country. 

[Shadoewolf]

Problem is, 18 is the age where a lot of kids graduate high school, and for some who live in the inner city or more rural towns, the military is their way out. Enlisting stops them from being on the street selling drugs. It may get them out of a bad home situation or their parents kick them out after graduation with nowhere to go. In small town Arkansas where we lived, there weren't nearly enough jobs so the kids saw it as a way to actually get out of there and do something. I can agree to raising the age to purchase a gun. (Didn't Dwreck say a person's brain isn't fully mature until they're like 25?) But I don't know about restricting the military age, because some kids really need the option. 

[quiversR4hunting]

23 minutes ago, Destiny said:

Honest question: If we, as a society, have decided that they are too undeveloped to handle drinking at 18, why do we think they are able to handle a gun? Obviously, I don’t agree, but I’d like to understand why. 

For the record, I also think 18 is a bit young to join the military using this model.  If you are too young to have a beer, you are too young to be ordered to kill. I’m open to a societal discussion on these ages, but it seems the height of hypocrisy to me too tell an 18 year old that the are too young for a Hefeweizen but old enough to have weapons that kill and die for their country. 

If (a big fat IF) the US has the laws that I suggest that includes training, registration, licensing, etc, then I am fine with them owning a gun, more specifically a hunting shotgun or rifle. If a child and teenager is trained correctly (like I was) on the handling of a deer rifle and go to classes (like I did) then they should be able to purchase a deer rifle or shotgun. I think of it like drivers training, as a teen the teen goes through book training and on the road training to get a license they graduate to more and more freedoms when using a vehicle. I think the same type of thing could be used for guns.

[Destiny]

21 minutes ago, quiversR4hunting said:

If (a big fat IF) the US has the laws that I suggest that includes training, registration, licensing, etc, then I am fine with them owning a gun, more specifically a hunting shotgun or rifle. If a child and teenager is trained correctly (like I was) on the handling of a deer rifle and go to classes (like I did) then they should be able to purchase a deer rifle or shotgun. I think of it like drivers training, as a teen the teen goes through book training and on the road training to get a license they graduate to more and more freedoms when using a vehicle. I think the same type of thing could be used for guns.

My problem with that argument is that we don’t let children drive cars without an adult, we don’t let them drink, so why would we let them have a gun with undeveloped brains? If they aren’t developed enough to do these things, how in the world are they developed enough to handle a firearm unsupervised? I personally don’t like guns, but i would have no problem with a teen learning under your conditions, but they should not be allowed to purchase or use one without an adult imho.

23 minutes ago, Shadoewolf said:

Problem is, 18 is the age where a lot of kids graduate high school, and for some who live in the inner city or more rural towns, the military is their way out. Enlisting stops them from being on the street selling drugs. It may get them out of a bad home situation or their parents kick them out after graduation with nowhere to go. In small town Arkansas where we lived, there weren't nearly enough jobs so the kids saw it as a way to actually get out of there and do something. I can agree to raising the age to purchase a gun. (Didn't Dwreck say a person's brain isn't fully mature until they're like 25?) But I don't know about restricting the military age, because some kids really need the option. 

I don’t disagree with you, but like i said, it seems hypocritical to me to say that someone is old enough to kill but not old enough for a beer. That was the point i was trying to make, badly.

Interesting discussion is interesting, but I must go adult so I’m gonna be gone for a while. 

[smittykins]

It used to be "old enough to kill, but not old enough to vote" until the 26th Amendment was ratified. 

[quiversR4hunting]

5 minutes ago, Destiny said:

My problem with that argument is that we don’t let children drive cars without an adult, we don’t let them drink, so why would we let them have a gun with undeveloped brains? If they aren’t developed enough to do these things, how in the world are they developed enough to handle a firearm unsupervised? I personally don’t like guns, but i would have no problem with a teen learning under your conditions, but they should not be allowed to purchase or use one without an adult imho.

I didn't put an age on my disagreement, I just said that I think people under 21 should be able to purchase a gun (specifically a hunting gun). I will clarify now, 18 is old enough to vote, military and legally considered an adult. I think they can buy a gun. So in this scenario if they are doing everything under adult supervision with the classes, licensing etc and they prove they have passed everything then at 18 they can purchase a gun. If teens/kids want to hunt or do sport shooting then it should be in a training environment with qualified mentors/teachers.

To this question- "If they aren’t developed enough to do these things, how in the world are they developed enough to handle a firearm unsupervised?"

A lot of youth hunters do hunt unsupervised, however the ones I know have had years of training under an experienced hunter and by the time they are 15 or so they are hunting by themselves. Again, just my experience hunters that teach their kids to hunt are teaching the safety because they are in the woods with them and they don't want their kid to accidently shoot a friend or family member in the woods in a different hunting blind.

The ones that worry me more are the gun nuts that love to go to a gun range and waste 100 rounds. Those are the ones that make me wonder what they are teaching their kids about guns.

[JillyO]

32 minutes ago, Shadoewolf said:

Problem is, 18 is the age where a lot of kids graduate high school, and for some who live in the inner city or more rural towns, the military is their way out. Enlisting stops them from being on the street selling drugs. It may get them out of a bad home situation or their parents kick them out after graduation with nowhere to go. In small town Arkansas where we lived, there weren't nearly enough jobs so the kids saw it as a way to actually get out of there and do something. I can agree to raising the age to purchase a gun. (Didn't Dwreck say a person's brain isn't fully mature until they're like 25?) But I don't know about restricting the military age, because some kids really need the option. 

But enlisting in the military because you have no other choice is horrible. It is such a life-changing, potentially deadly decision. Even those that come back physically unharmed often have mental health issues that remain untreated because we, as a society, don't care about veterans. We like sending young adults to war and then expect them to deal with it on their own when they come back heavily traumatized. Which in and of itself is horrible enough, but then the added layer of these young people not enlisting because they strongly feel they want to fight for their country, but because they come from economically desititute homes and see no other way out? That is absolutely horrifying! And yes, I understand that this is a sad reality, but it's one we should work to change.

[nausicaa]

2 hours ago, JillyO said:

American exceptionalism is so great that Americans seriously think that nothing the rest of the world has done to solve the problem will work for them. "Sure, all other developed countries have much stricter gun laws, but it wouldn't work here." "Sure, Australia managed to curve its gun problem after one mass shooting, but the same thing wouldn't work here." Etc. etc. I hear it all the time, even from proponents of stricter gun laws. As a trained sociologist, I understand that societal differences do impact outcomes. But let's face it, America: You're not that special. If it's worked for every other country, it's a least worth a try in America.

Sorry for the novel, but after a discussion with a French friend recently I've been thinking about this a lot. I sort of organized all my thoughts below. 

I can tell you that at least the gun confiscations that happened in Australia will never happen here.

Australia did not have a gun lobby as powerful and wealthy as the NRA (in fact Australia's very weak gun lobby had the NRA come in to advise them on messaging and mobilization). It also didn't have the right to bear arms ingrained in its constitution. And there were only six Australian states that needed to come to a consensus. We have fifty, plus a constitution that clearly delineates state versus Federal powers. There is also a gun culture that is so deeply ingrained here, I think it's hard to convey to non-Americans who haven't grown up with it. 

Australia essentially had a forcible buy back program and the number of gun owning households was cut in half (the equivalent of 53 million households in the United States). The logistics of implementing something similar in the United States is impossible for political, social, and logistical reasons. The country is too large, there are too many guns, and the dynamics are too different. I have yet to hear a plausible plan for how this could be done.

Any politician, even a Democrat, who supported such a scheme would be committing political suicide (and we have to be honest, at the end of the day, what any politician wants is to be reelected). It could easily be deemed unconstitutional due to search and seizure laws. And the only organizations I would think who could be deployed to do such extensive checks would be the military or law enforcement, both of which are made up predominately of conservatives who staunchly support the Second Amendment and likely privately own many guns themselves. Most would probably flat out refuse to listen to orders, go on strike, or at the very least do a wink wink nudge nudge to the homeowner with nine semis displayed above his fireplace telling them there are no firearms in his household.  

The way forward for U.S. gun control has to be implementing and expanding waiting periods, stricter background checks, and banning the purchase of semi-automatics. The focus has to be on future gun purchases and manufacture.

All of this to say, the 350 million guns (including 2.5 million AR-15s) currently in the United States? Those aren't going anywhere anytime soon. 

[JillyO]

1 hour ago, nausicaa said:

Sorry for the novel, but after a discussion with a French friend recently I've been thinking about this a lot. I sort of organized all my thoughts below. 

I can tell you that at least the gun confiscations that happened in Australia will never happen here.

Australia did not have a gun lobby as powerful and wealthy as the NRA (in fact Australia's very weak gun lobby had the NRA come in to advise them on messaging and mobilization). It also didn't have the right to bear arms ingrained in its constitution. And there were only six Australian states that needed to come to a consensus. We have fifty, plus a constitution that clearly delineates state versus Federal powers. There is also a gun culture that is so deeply ingrained here, I think it's hard to convey to non-Americans who haven't grown up with it. 

Australia essentially had a forcible buy back program and the number of gun owning households was cut in half (the equivalent of 53 million households in the United States). The logistics of implementing something similar in the United States is impossible for political, social, and logistical reasons. The country is too large, there are too many guns, and the dynamics are too different. I have yet to hear a plausible plan for how this could be done.

Any politician, even a Democrat, who supported such a scheme would be committing political suicide (and we have to be honest, at the end of the day, what any politician wants is to be reelected). It could easily be deemed unconstitutional due to search and seizure laws. And the only organizations I would think who could be deployed to do such extensive checks would be the military or law enforcement, both of which are made up predominately of conservatives who staunchly support the Second Amendment and likely privately own many guns themselves. Most would probably flat out refuse to listen to orders, go on strike, or at the very least do a wink wink nudge nudge to the homeowner with nine semis displayed above his fireplace telling them there are no firearms in his household.  

The way forward for U.S. gun control has to be implementing and expanding waiting periods, stricter background checks, and banning the purchase of semi-automatics. The focus has to be on future gun purchases and manufacture.

All of this to say, the 350 million guns (including 2.5 million AR-15s) currently in the United States? Those aren't going anywhere anytime soon. 

Oh, I agree. I wasn't trying to say that the US should employ the same plans as Australia or the UK did, for example. I strongly believe that every country needs to find its own way to address this issue. Australia and the UK also both have the advantage of being islands, which makes smuggling in weapons much harder. I understand that. I was just trying to say that there can be a plan specific to the United States (though taking cues from what has and hasn't worked in other countries certainly doesn't hurt) that successfully curbs this current gun madness. But way too many Americans (even those in favor of gun control) are convinced that America is so very special that really, there's nothing we can do, so why even try.

[Carm_88]

I wonder do the people who say constantly "It's Mental Illness" know that every other country in the world has mental illnesses too. Clearly it's a problem with guns, because if you're "mentally ill" and you want to shoot up a school but you can't get a gun; then you're not going to shoot up a school. 

There will always be evil people in this world but why the fuck are you making it easy for them? 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

11 hours ago, smittykins said:

snipped

And we have to go through our kids’ rooms/backpacks on a regular basis. “Their lives are not their own until they move out”(direct quote).

I volunteer in my first grader's class every week. One thing I do is help check in their homework folders. When a folder is missing but the student is there that day, I usually just go check their backpack in their cubby. (It saves time and doesn't interrupt class or their recess.) Today was the first time I felt really weird opening 3 or 4 backpacks, and these are 6 and 7 year olds. 

There was a very minor incident in an area school yesterday, where a young student had a bb gun in their backpack. Someone noticed and reported it. Fortunately, the student had no ill intentions and cooperated with school officials. 

It's all just so wrong.

[Shadoewolf]

This was my daughter's middle school yesterday.

 

[LiterallyBananas]

@Carm_88 I couldn't quite articulate what was bothering me about the mental illness argument until I found this article -- Untangling Gun Violence from Mental Illness. There's a difference between having a mental illness and being mentally unwell.

How that should fit in with gun ownership? I have no idea. 

 

[srlm]

5 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

I wonder do the people who say constantly "It's Mental Illness" know that every other country in the world has mental illnesses too. Clearly it's a problem with guns, because if you're "mentally ill" and you want to shoot up a school but you can't get a gun; then you're not going to shoot up a school. 

There will always be evil people in this world but why the fuck are you making it easy for them? 

I just recently read (can't remember where) that women have a higher percentage of mental illness than men, but men have a higher percentage of violent behavior/mass shootings.  I had never heard that before.  

[Chocolatedefrauded]

We got a note home from my daughter’s middle school today. Someone reported something disturbing about the school last night on social media, no direct threats but the cops are investigating & there were more officers at the school today. It was all very vague and parents are freaking out,. They are demanding to be called & emailed the instant something is reported, even in the middle of the night so they can decide if it is safe to send their kid to school the next day.

my 13 yr old just seems numb to it. It is at the point where they hear about a shooting & just ask, “how many died this time?” 

I hate when people say it can’t happen here, cause we are too nice a place or too rural or suburban. Mass shootings  are generally not happening in inner city schools.  And it is never girls shooting up schools. It is always white boys.

It just makes me feel like crying, the threat that always seems to hover. Why is no one figuring out what is wrong with those boys? Why can’t we solve this as a society?

[Shadoewolf]

9 minutes ago, Chocolatedefrauded said:

We got a note home from my daughter’s middle school today. Someone reported something disturbing about the school last night on social media, no direct threats but the cops are investigating & there were more officers at the school today. It was all very vague and parents are freaking out,. They are demanding to be called & emailed the instant something is reported, even in the middle of the night so they can decide if it is safe to send their kid to school the next day.

SNIP

Do our kids go to the same school??! Creepy coincidence!

[Chocolatedefrauded]

10 hours ago, Shadoewolf said:

Do our kids go to the same school??! Creepy coincidence!

That would be weird! We suspect a lot of disturbing things on social media have been reported in the last few days. Not that it did any good in this case. I’ve heard about other schools hearing about threats. Scary times.

[VelociRapture]

10 hours ago, Chocolatedefrauded said:

We got a note home from my daughter’s middle school today. Someone reported something disturbing about the school last night on social media, no direct threats but the cops are investigating & there were more officers at the school today. It was all very vague and parents are freaking out,. They are demanding to be called & emailed the instant something is reported, even in the middle of the night so they can decide if it is safe to send their kid to school the next day.

my 13 yr old just seems numb to it. It is at the point where they hear about a shooting & just ask, “how many died this time?” 

I hate when people say it can’t happen here, cause we are too nice a place or too rural or suburban. Mass shootings  are generally not happening in inner city schools.  And it is never girls shooting up schools. It is always white boys.

It just makes me feel like crying, the threat that always seems to hover. Why is no one figuring out what is wrong with those boys? Why can’t we solve this as a society?

People thought that about Newtown too. It’s a lovely little town filled with lovely people and filled with New England charm where bad things don’t happen (besides that unfortunate incident where Richard Craft killed his wife, Helle, back in 1986 and used a wood chipper to dispose of the body. Everyone seems to overlook that somehow.) 

The people saying it couldn’t happen in Newtown were obviously very, very wrong. Unfortunately, we live in a country where our Republican politicians don’t give a shit and so this can happen anywhere at anytime. 

[JillyO]

I just saw this on Facebook, and it is so sadly, horribly true that I wanted to share:

 

[Ali]

11 hours ago, Chocolatedefrauded said:

It just makes me feel like crying, the threat that always seems to hover. Why is no one figuring out what is wrong with those boys? Why can’t we solve this as a society?

The NRA has prevented the CDC from researching gun violence by getting donating to politicians. 

Is there an organization in the United States that is pushing common sense gun control that we can start getting involved with and give donations to?

[Rachel333]

It looks like the information about Cruz being in a racist paramilitary group may have been false. It seems the misinformation was spread by the group members themselves as well as 4chan users who think it's hilarious to give the media false information. https://www.politico.com/amp/story/2018/02/16/florida-shooting-white-nationalists-415672

He was definitely still racist, though, and expressed hatred towards Jewish people, black people, Mexicans, immigrants, and gay people. https://edition-m.cnn.com/2018/02/16/us/exclusive-school-shooter-instagram-group/index.html

[Evangeline]

I really really hate seeing people this defeated over the gun control issue. I hate reading things like "it will never happen," etc. People, we have to realize a few things. First, change, especially in the idiocracy that is the US, is not going to be linear. Things are changing but it isn't going to be a quick zip from A to B. We have to be in this for the long haul. Young people are pissed off about this! If you're one of them, great! Be pissed off! If you aren't then stop talking about how impossible this seems and help them!

Next, take a page from the Republican playbook. It look 40 years for their  vision to become a reality. They had plenty of setbacks but you have to admit they didn't just sit around and talk about how it was hopeless. They doubled down, they took help from every degenerate and every soulless monster they could. If Democrats are ever going to survive this shitshow and change this country, they need to knock it off with the hopelessness and the ideological purity tests. Vote,  donate, make calls, register voters, drive people to the polls, keep going, take the long view, and for God's sake, stop with the more-liberal-than-thou arguments. Take any help, from anyone, whether they are progressive or just want their kids to not be murdered and their social security to not be destroyed.

[HarleyQuinn]

Emma Gonzalez, a survivor of the shooting is giving one hell of a speech at a rally right now. I love that these kids aren't being silent, that they're out there challenging this head on. It's inspiring.