Dillards 49: Dull Dillards Dulling

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

4 hours ago, SweetJuly said:

He could, but does he want to?

Plus, he would be working for someone, and that is not considered good enough for a proper headship in fundie circles. Grifting and pretending to be a missionary/preacher is apparently more respected than providing for your family through honest, hard employed work.

Not only working for someone, he'd be working for the ebil baby killing Christian persecuting gubmint.

[SweetJuly]

3 hours ago, PennySycamore said:

@FluffySnowball

@SweetJuly, the Sissi films are not 70 years old, but 60ish. The first one came out 63 years ago in 1955.  Just because a film is old doesn't mean that it needs to be remade.  If there is something that they left out, though, because of the censorship standards of the time,  yes, remake away!

Nowhere did I say they needed to be remade.

All I said was that I wanted more - more Habsburgs, more Romanovs, more Rothschilds, more Bourbons, Valois, Wittelsbach, even Sachsen-Coburg-Gothas! Can't get enough of good historic drama.

[Carm_88]

16 minutes ago, Crazy Enough to Join said:

 I think Derrick would only check to make sure the school agreed with his politics, but be totally cool otherwise, not pressure his wife to homeschool or isolate. They really are not isolated at all, hanging out with college students and Muslims and people from other countries etc.

It's not his politics; he's a fundamentalist Christian. Do you seriously think that either Derick or Jill are listening to anything that anyone else says? Derick fights with people on twitter and then has to have his Mommy come in and have his back. There's not much difference between Derick and Jeremy, even Ben. They all chose Duggar wives. Ben was young, so I will give him that. He probably didn't know what he was getting into. Derick and Jeremy both experienced the average life and wanted a Duggar wife for a reason. 

Derick may be ok with jeans, he may be ok with Jill talking to college classes, but equal? Not following him bullshit! 

[albireo]

15 minutes ago, Crazy Enough to Join said:

Agreed to making one own's choices looking different. And, of course, we can't know for sure. But Derrick's ideology as spouted on twitter etc. is all about missions and political ideology and that kind of thing. He seems to care less what Jill does as far as mothering/clothing/work (unlike the Duggars who have a specific ideology about what women wear, birth, work, educate etc.). I think he would approve of whatever as far as Jill being independent. Jill is already giving speeches (probably lame ones) to college students. If she wanted to go to college, I see Derrick being like sure, whatever, as long as it doesn't mean I have to change my sons' diapers. If she wanted to send her boys to school, I think Derrick would only check to make sure the school agreed with his politics, but be totally cool otherwise, not pressure his wife to homeschool or isolate. They really are not isolated at all, hanging out with college students and Muslims and people from other countries etc.

I fear we don't have enough evidence to say that Jill is acting independently from Derick, and that any hopes that she's getting more free are anything more than speculation. Sure, he's OK with what she's done so far, but I don't think that necessarily means that he didn't have a role in sculpting her new image. Plus he's gross ideologically and most of the changes so far have been relatively cosmetic, so until further notice it seems they're still on board with most of what they were doing before the "changes." Interesting developments in their lives, sure, but probably not monumental. JMO of course.

[Crazy Enough to Join]

1 minute ago, Carm_88 said:

It's not his politics; he's a fundamentalist Christian. Do you seriously think that either Derick or Jill are listening to anything that anyone else says? Derick fights with people on twitter and then has to have his Mommy come in and have his back. There's not much difference between Derick and Jeremy, even Ben. They all chose Duggar wives. Ben was young, so I will give him that. He probably didn't know what he was getting into. Derick and Jeremy both experienced the average life and wanted a Duggar wife for a reason. 

Derick may be ok with jeans, he may be ok with Jill talking to college classes, but equal? Not following him bullshit! 

I think he would be too busy fighting with people on Twitter about his religion and politics to really notice if Jill was following him or not. More absentee type than controlling type like Jeremy imo.

[HermioneSparrow]

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

The movie made her seem so saintly, I even have a book about her that my parents got my when they were in Germany that is full of praise.... and then I read more about her! 

She was awful but the people around her were awful too, her MIL was a beeotch, her husband cheated on her and gave her STDs, her parents were okay with that marriage and she was way too young.. Her family failed her but she also failed her kids.

[HarleyQuinn]

The idea of Jill having an independent thought of any kind is laughable. 

[byzant]

On 17/01/2018 at 10:13 PM, singsingsing said:

There are way too many senior representatives of various competing royal dynasties here. I can tell you based on my expertise that this never ends well (that history degree was worth every penny, folks). Should we all just choose our methods of extinction now? Your options range from run-of-the-mill consumption, infection, childbirth complications, to plague or mysterious fevers, to death in battle or by beheading, to being drowned in a barrel of wine. Oh, or you could always just mysteriously disappear (I know a guy).

can I be drowned in a butt of malmsey wine? No other resemblance but I always thought it sounded like one of the best english royal deaths.

[Jenn The Heathen]

Uhhhh.... I step away for a couple of hours to run some errands and it goes from talk of Not Fat Henry VIII to Jill going to college and having independent thought.  That’s quite a leap...

Just because Derek is busy fighting with strangers on the internet doesn’t mean all of a sudden Jill has all this freedom to think and do what she wants.  I spend time chatting with strangers on the internet and I still have time to keep my kids in line.  Jill’s wearing pants, good for her.  Jill has a nose ring and I’m super jealous.  Jill has not said “I’m going to better myself and go to college.  Oh, and by the way, I’m not turning my uterus into a clown car and support and woman’s right to choose.”  Until that happens, I’ll continue to think she has the same views she’s always had, just with better clothes and accessories.

[VelociRapture]

20 minutes ago, HarleyQuinn said:

The idea of Jill having an independent thought of any kind is laughable. 

I think it’s likely all the Duggar offspring have had some independent thoughts, even if it’s only once. Whether they act on it is another matter entirely though.

 

@Crazy Enough to Join With the exception of Josh, I haven’t really seen anything from the Duggars that suggests they’re deviating from their core beliefs in a meaningful way yet. And, unfortunately, Josh’s independent thoughts and choices led to molestation and cheating allegations rather than to thoughts and actions that had a positive impact on him and his family.

To be fair, the Dills and Benessa haven't even celebrated their fourth wedding anniversaries yet. It’s possible that there will be changes from them or from some of the others at some point, but they haven’t reached that point just yet.  

6 minutes ago, Jenn The Heathen said:

Uhhhh.... I step away for a couple of hours to run some errands and it goes from talk of Not Fat Henry VIII to Jill going to college and having independent thought.  That’s quite a leap...

Just because Derek is busy fighting with strangers on the internet doesn’t mean all of a sudden Jill has all this freedom to think and do what she wants.  I spend time chatting with strangers on the internet and I still have time to keep my kids in line.  Jill’s wearing pants, good for her.  Jill has a nose ring and I’m super jealous.  Jill has not said “I’m going to better myself and go to college.  Oh, and by the way, I’m not turning my uterus into a clown car and support and woman’s right to choose.”  Until that happens, I’ll continue to think she has the same views she’s always had, just with better clothes and accessories.

I have to agree with this. I use this forum, social media, etc. yet I still manage to keep my kid happy, healthy, and loved. His Twitter habit is obnoxious, but I don’t see how it could be a major impediment from him bossing his family around. 

[DancingPhalanges]

Can I be a little weird and post a pic of my books? I absolutely loved the thread drift.

[Carm_88]

@DancingPhalanges I love your books! 

[cindyluvs24]

19 minutes ago, DancingPhalanges said:

Can I be a little weird and post a pic of my books? I absolutely loved the thread drift.

 I admire that you have your books arranged by region and dynasty.

[Jenn The Heathen]

@DancingPhalangesHow is the Dan Jones book on the war of the roses?

[BlondeIdol]

As far as Jill making her own choices and wearing pants goes, I don't think Jill is making any of these choices. Derick is definitely in charge. Because he says he is. According to Derick he made the decision to not have his family on the show anymore. 

Jill getting her nose pierced and wearing pants is just a part of an image change for her. Her crunchy missionary lifestyle where she has a billion kids in CA didn't workout for her. Now she's trying to be 'hip' and appeal to college kids, because her whole identity is tied to Derick. Appeal to college kids is what Derick does now, I guess. She does look good but she's still the awkward fundie Jill we've always known. It's very transparent. Or it seems that way to me.

[DancingPhalanges]

36 minutes ago, Jenn The Heathen said:

@DancingPhalangesHow is the Dan Jones book on the war of the roses?

I loved it. His books are very appealing to anyone interested in the subject. I especially loved his book on the Plantagenets but in general I just really like his writing style. 

Amy Kelly's book on Eleanor of Aquitaine is my favorite regarding Eleanor. It's more academic but a must read for Eleanor fans. 

 My nose is always stuck in a book or FJ when I have down time. 

Just want to edit to add that I am not an academic or history degree holder, just read history for the love of it. 

Just one more edit, I loved Wolf Hall, the cast is fantastic. It dragged a little here and there but I've watched the series twice. 

[tabitha2]

If you enjoy history  I want to recommend the Diary of 18th century Korean Noblewoman Lady Hyegyeong. She was Married at 9 to the Crown prince, saw her family brought down by political enemies, Her husband go insane and thus murdered by his father  and lived to see her become son and grandson emperor. Her memoir is a plea to her grandson to restore her families name and tell events as she saw them. It’s a fascinating read and her helplessness and frustration is palpable. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Hyegyeong

 

 

 

[just_ordinary]

5 hours ago, DancingPhalanges said:

Can I be a little weird and post a pic of my books? I absolutely loved the thread drift.

Love it! And I have to agree, Eleonore is just the best. A true ladyboss if there ever was one. I am very happy that her characterisation has shifted in the last years. Historic research like everything else is influenced by zeitgeist and because we can only know so much about the past there will always be conflicting interpretations. A lot of powerful woman had quite a bad reputation but more and more research tries to paint a more balanced picture (that started about 15 - 25 years ago). What I hate is when the shift is just from horrible to great. No one is just great. I like and admire Eleonore but I am well aware that her actions were not above criticism. But then there are actually very few good sources to research on her, a lot of the written sources were written shortly after her death and already painted a bad picture. Modern research is very aware of those problems and that helped tremendously in changing her characterisation. Maybe I will have a look into the book by Amy Kelly you recommend.

And Sissi is my absolute guilty pleasure. Of course they made a tragic story (with one big romantic element) into a overly sweet fairy tail, but I just love it. And so I ignore how inaccurate it is.

[Firebird]

So I'm just going to indulge in a little pride, but a family member of mine had done this extensive research of the family tree, and apparently I'm somehow related to Eleanor of Aquitaine.

Does anyone else remembering hearing or reading about this? I have this memory of a book I read in middle school where King John would chew his Oriental rugs when he was having a tantrum? Another story I vaguely remember is King Richard really wanted pork but there was none so the cook served up the prisoners because apparently people tastes like pork. That's pretty ghastly, but it was something that stuck in my middle school brain. Can anyone confirm or deny?

[just_ordinary]

13 minutes ago, Firebird said:

So I'm just going to indulge in a little pride, but a family member of mine had done this extensive research of the family tree, and apparently I'm somehow related to Eleanor of Aquitaine.

If so, that is really really cool!

But please be aware- the chances that this would withhold professional testing are rather small. I mean in the end everyone is related to someone important but for 99% of all the people there is no prove in written sources. A lot of people couldn’t read or write for the longest time in history and names got changed or were written wrong a lot. Stories were made up to gloss over (eight month 4kg babies)  and keeping a track record of family members wasn’t that important for most. Researching old church registers for wedding, christening and death certificates is one of the best options but still flawed. And often they are beyond reading as they are too yellowed or show the worst handwriting. With people starting to move more since  the 20th century research gets even more problematic. Just think about the name changes of people who migrated to America.

But if there is undeniable truth for your ancestry that is really great and I would envy you for sure!!!

[Firebird]

@just_ordinary

I believe I was told I was related to her through King John's side probably some illegitamite type thing. True or not it was still a great story as a kid I enjoyed it. I'm a Northern European mutt. I was also told I was related to Atilla the Hun and thought that was super cool until I realized all of Europe is basically descended from him as he raped basically the entire continent.

[PennySycamore]

@libgirl2,  I am old enough to remember Keith Michell as Henry VIII in The Six Wives of Henry VIII and yes, he's how I tend to envision Henry.  I was looking at the Wikipedia article about that series and hadn't realized that the Duke of Norfolk was played by the Second Doctor, Patrick Troughton.

[JoiseyGoil]

Compared to Derick and the other Duggar cult members, Ben has taken baby steps at least into having independent thoughts and “liberal” views regarding racism and the hypocrisy of the Republican Party. He wasn’t raised in IBLP exactly, but if he can be at least a little enlightened, maybe the younger Duggars and grand-Duggars can be too. Compared to his counterparts, who are cop-loving, American exceptionalist fundies, he chose to denounce Trump and support black lives matter. Derick and Cathy on the other hand basically live up Trump’s ass, as well as most other fundies I would imagine. Whether Jessa shares his beliefs or he has argued with the Duggars/Seewalds over them, we may never know, but he might be a sign of what is possible to come from the younger Duggars. Heck, since Ben’s beliefs evolved by hanging out with Flame, maybe Jill at least exposing herself to Muslims and other oppressed groups could allow her to evolve at least a millimeter from fundamentalism

[nst]

8 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

It's not his politics; he's a fundamentalist Christian. Do you seriously think that either Derick or Jill are listening to anything that anyone else says? Derick fights with people on twitter and then has to have his Mommy come in and have his back. There's not much difference between Derick and Jeremy, even Ben. They all chose Duggar wives. Ben was young, so I will give him that. He probably didn't know what he was getting into. Derick and Jeremy both experienced the average life and wanted a Duggar wife for a reason. 

Derick may be ok with jeans, he may be ok with Jill talking to college classes, but equal? Not following him bullshit! 

Ben never posts anymore... and we haven't heard about Flame in eons.   Ben knows where his bread is buttered unlike the man. 

the man has no clue 

actually i think weeks ago he highjacked Jessa's instagram and said something but apart from that he is just raising those babies.

 

[Crazy Enough to Join]

16 minutes ago, JoiseyGoil said:

Compared to Derick and the other Duggar cult members, Ben has taken baby steps at least into having independent thoughts and “liberal” views regarding racism and the hypocrisy of the Republican Party. He wasn’t raised in IBLP exactly, but if he can be at least a little enlightened, maybe the younger Duggars and grand-Duggars can be too. Compared to his counterparts, who are cop-loving, American exceptionalist fundies, he chose to denounce Trump and support black lives matter. Derick and Cathy on the other hand basically live up Trump’s ass, as well as most other fundies I would imagine. Whether Jessa shares his beliefs or he has argued with the Duggars/Seewalds over them, we may never know, but he might be a sign of what is possible to come from the younger Duggars. Heck, since Ben’s beliefs evolved by hanging out with Flame, maybe Jill at least exposing herself to Muslims and other oppressed groups could allow her to evolve at least a millimeter from fundamentalism

Again everyone's confusing politics with freedom imo. Voting against Trump might be good for the country, but it doesn't do anything to personally liberate a person who is being controlled by someone else. If Ben and Jessa have 19 kids and counting they will of necessity get all the baggage of sister moms, neglected kids etc. I think Michelle is insane, but I don't think she's inordinately lazy. When you have 19 kids, you can be working your tail off 24/7 and still need several sister moms just to make sure that babies don't die. That's how it was in historical times pre-birth control, granted high infant mortality eased up the childcare burden. Jessa, no matter how great you think she is now, will be forced into the same patterns if she continues her fertility rates. And I think Jessa wants to compete against Joy and her mom for number of kids so won't stop.
   Anyway, Jill and Derrick and their kids will be more personally free (no matter how many bad politicians they support on Twitter) than Ben and Jessa and their kids if Jill stops at 2 kids or even 3 or 4. It's more about math than any great ideological awakening. Personally, I think Derrick is sick of having kids and will convince Jill to use birth control because they will be able to do more mission work if they have less kids. I think Jill will see the c-sections as a sign from God that she is supposed to have a smaller family, also she wants to please Derrick. Additionally, she knows she can't be in the competition to have 20 kids like Jessa and Joy because of the C-sections, so that takes out the competitive streak. And YES Duggar women are taught to be competitive about procreating. Just look at Bates vs. Duggar competition. Jessa is a competitive person which is why I expect lots of babies from her.