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21 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

As far as Aziz, I don’t think you necessarily need to boycott. The woman let him know how uncomfortable she had been and he seems to have been genuine in his apology to her. If she accepts and he doesn’t have more accusations surface then I don’t see a reason to avoid his stuff. 

And I’m trying to word this carefully, but sometimes people don’t always realize when they’re making someone uncomfortable. If Aziz truly didn’t realize (as he said he didn’t) then I think he should be held to a different standard then someone who purposely continues making someone uncomfortable, especially because he offered an actual apology when she told him he was out of line. Hopefully he’s able to learn from this experience and he doesn’t make someone else feel as uncomfortable as this woman did in the future. 

As for Franco, I’m really not sure how to understand his recent interviews. He claims that the situations being described aren’t entirely accurate, but that he isn’t defending himself because he believes that the Me Too movement is important and that they have the right to speak out if they want to. I don’t really get what he means by that.

Aziz Ansari made a public statement about it: http://deadline.com/2018/01/aziz-ansari-allegations-sexual-encounter-metoo-1202242992/

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They had dinner together, and afterwards, ended up engaging in sexual activity, which by all indications, he said, “was completely consensual.”

“The next day, I got a text from her saying that although ‘it may have seemed okay,’ upon further reflection, she felt uncomfortable,” Ansari wrote in a statement. “It was true that everything did seem okay to me, so when I heard that it was not the case for her, I was surprised and concerned. I took her words to heart and responded privateqly after taking the time to process what she had said.” 

“I continue to support the movement that is happening in our culture,” he wrote. “It is necessary and long overdue.”

I’m glad he seems sincere. Though I wish he’d speak more about his reflection of the event, and about men needing to read nonverbal cues and not to push when a women isn’t interested. Especially since so many people seem to use not reading nonverbal cues as some sort of excuse, like, “oh if it wasn’t a firm verbal no it’s okay.” 

As for Franco, a lot is coming out about him abusing his power and throwing tantrums if women didn’t do what he wanted. And that time he hit up a 17 year-old to come to his hotel room.

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Regarding Franco, I think it's super creepy for a man in his 30's to date/sleep with teenagers even if you don't add in the extra power dynamics of him being famous and the specific inappropriate behavior he's been accused of.

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12 hours ago, HarryPotterFan said:

Aziz Ansari made a public statement about it: http://deadline.com/2018/01/aziz-ansari-allegations-sexual-encounter-metoo-1202242992/

I’m glad he seems sincere. Though I wish he’d speak more about his reflection of the event, and about men needing to read nonverbal cues and not to push when a women isn’t interested. Especially since so many people seem to use not reading nonverbal cues as some sort of excuse, like, “oh if it wasn’t a firm verbal no it’s okay.” 

As for Franco, a lot is coming out about him abusing his power and throwing tantrums if women didn’t do what he wanted. And that time he hit up a 17 year-old to come to his hotel room.

Oh, I know a lot is coming out about Franco now. I’m just genuinely confused by his response in those interviews. He’s saying stuff like the accusations aren’t accurate in his opinion, but he believes in the Me Too movement enough not to silence his accusers? Dude... you either fucked up or you didn’t. If you did, just offer a genuine apology and start taking real steps to make yourself into less of a trashy person.  

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I'm really angry about Aziz Ansari.  The guy literally wrote the book on modern dating.  He had episodes of Master of None about sexual harassment and power dynamics, gender bias, and why women are afraid of men's reactions if they say "no."  The asshole not only knew better, but he created art to show other people that they should know better.  All of this happened on his show before the September 2017 alleged incident.  And now I'm seeing comments in various places like AV Club that there have been rumors about him for a while, and that his behavior is well known in Charleston.

Also seeing lots of ugly comments about "why didn't she just leave his apartment?"  (At least one AV Club commenter wrote a detailed, numbered list of reasons why it is not easy for a victim to "just leave" or say a verbal "no.")

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4 minutes ago, GeoBQn said:

Also seeing lots of ugly comments about "why didn't she just leave his apartment?"  (At least one AV Club commenter wrote a detailed, numbered list of reasons why it is not easy for a victim to "just leave" or say a verbal "no.")

There are so many examples of women literally being killed for saying no. And even a weaker than average man is still stronger than most women. I don't want to hear another man ask why a woman didn't just leave or say no unless he knows what it's like to actually be in that situation.

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2 hours ago, GeoBQn said:

And now I'm seeing comments in various places like AV Club that there have been rumors about him for a while, and that his behavior is well known in Charleston.

This made me look around, and I saw this tweet:

It's disappointing, especially because I did like Aziz Ansari, but if men are engaging in this kind of behavior then I hope it continues to be exposed.

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9 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

Oh, I know a lot is coming out about Franco now. I’m just genuinely confused by his response in those interviews. He’s saying stuff like the accusations aren’t accurate in his opinion, but he believes in the Me Too movement enough not to silence his accusers? Dude... you either fucked up or you didn’t. If you did, just offer a genuine apology and start taking real steps to make yourself into less of a trashy person.  

I have no idea what goes on in that man’s brain. Maybe he disagrees with their take on the story, but since he wasn’t holding anyone at knife/gun point, he didn’t force them? Fuck if I know. They think he did something, he doesn’t think he did, so he won’t admit to it but won’t deny it either? He’s a “nice guy” asshole who clearly did no wrong because he’s so nice?  

@GeoBQn The comments infuriate me as well. A friend posted one of the stories about Aziz on Facebook, and said he was trying to sort out his opinions/feelings, and recognized his thoughts were influenced how much he likes Aziz’s work. Some asshole said what happened was nothing, and actually listed reasons why. People called him out, and one of my friends said he’s probably assaulted someone himself (which I agree with, if you think someone going to your apartment means yes to sexual acts, and pressuring and nonverbal cues mean nothing...) he got all defensive. I said something about him needing to reflect on why he cares more about a guy being accused/not understanding verbal cues than he is about people who experience assault. That that because he likes aziz doesnt mean a infallible. And he needs to listen to why a verbal no isn’t always possible. He tagged me in a response, if I haven’t looked because I don’t have time for fucking idiots.

@Rachel333 That’s so disturbing and really adds a lot...

 

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Update: Finally managed to read the article accusing Ansari. 

@HarryPotterFanI’m not a fan of book burning, but I wouldn’t be opposed to you chucking his book into the trash. Apparently that’s exactly where that book has always belonged.

ETA: On second thought, you could always keep it. You already spent money on it and it’s not like it’s going to financially benefit him anymore. You could keep it as a reminder that people lie and you can never really know someone until you’re alone with them. 

That may be too dark or weird for you. In which case, chuck it. 

Edited by VelociRapture
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@VelociRapture I was going to loan the book to my self-proclaimed online dating expert brother, and now I don’t want to. One of my friends is having a hard time with this, she’s posted on Facebook about having similar experiences as that woman and how traumatic it was, and people are trying to explain why what happened was okay. Fuck, this guy I know who posts tons about men being sexually abused posted an article from someone claiming to be a feminist saying how the woman didn’t experience anything traumatic and should have just left, and was tearing into her for every little thing. Like the woman mentioned Aziz got her a glass of red wine or something, and she didn’t like red wine. The self-proclaimed feminist mocked her for including that detail.

@Rachel333 I haven’t read the Atlantic article yet, just looked it up and read the sub headline. What, women are supposed to just sit there and take whatever men want to do? And from that quote, our ability to call out men for this depends on their skin color? Fuck her.

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1 hour ago, HarryPotterFan said:

@VelociRapture I was going to loan the book to my self-proclaimed online dating expert brother, and now I don’t want to. One of my friends is having a hard time with this, she’s posted on Facebook about having similar experiences as that woman and how traumatic it was, and people are trying to explain why what happened was okay. Fuck, this guy I know who posts tons about men being sexually abused posted an article from someone claiming to be a feminist saying how the woman didn’t experience anything traumatic and should have just left, and was tearing into her for every little thing. Like the woman mentioned Aziz got her a glass of red wine or something, and she didn’t like red wine. The self-proclaimed feminist mocked her for including that detail.

@Rachel333 I haven’t read the Atlantic article yet, just looked it up and read the sub headline. What, women are supposed to just sit there and take whatever men want to do? And from that quote, our ability to call out men for this depends on their skin color? Fuck her.

Yeah... if there’s any chance he may take that book as an endorsement of Ansari’s recent actions, then it’s probably better not to share the book with him. 

 

2 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

I agree with this guy's take on the issue:

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And also this guy's reaction to the terrible Atlantic piece:

 

These responses are great, but Anil’s in particular is pretty fantastic. You (General you) don’t get to pretend to care about minorities (or women or LGBTQIA or etc.) only when it’s convenient for you or only when you can use them as a prop for whatever bullshit you’re peddling.

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I've seen some takes that Aziz Ansari was guilty of nothing except not being a mind reader but I think he was acting like a creep.   So yeah granted she was in an apartment with him in a state of nudity and didn't run away screaming when he touched her so some people  are saying she sent mixed signals.

But if everything went down as described I don't believe that a smart guy like Aziz Ansari or really any other dude with a seminormal IQ could be unaware that she was uncomfortable. I think he knew but he just didn't give a damn because he was feeling horny and entitled.

Firstly, anyone who knows anything about women  would know that women generally might like a more gradual approach than sticking your fingers in their throat and vagina straight off the bat and oral sex five seconds after entering the doorway. She even explicitly said that he it was going too fast. But he didn't care. 

Then there was a whole lot of nonverbal pulling away and moving away from him and him having to put her fingers on his dick over and over again because she kept taking them off and that sort of thing. Anyone with a brain  understands those are not a positive sign of mutual lust.

Then he asked about where to have sex and she said next time and went to the bathroom. Anyone with half a brain would understand that "next time" in this context is code for "certainly not now" and quite likely also "never, you freak"

I don't know much about Aziz Ansari but I've seen him in some comedy bits and he never seemed like a moron to me so I'm giving him some credit and assuming that he is not the kind of moron who would be oblivious to all those verbal and nonverbal cues that she wasn't that into him. He knew but he wanted sex so what is a guy to do.

Then you have her explicitly telling him that she would hate him afterwards if she felt forced into having sex. No one who wants to have sex  ever said anything like that to the person they want to have sex with. The only reason you're having that conversation is that she's feeling forced and she doesn't want you. And he hears understands that, he acknowledges that it's not fun if both aren't having fun. But nevertheless, he still feels horny so he doesn't stop.

The overall theme of the story is that her  wishes simply aren't that important to him, starting from when they left the restaurant when he wants to leave, regardless of whether she wants to finish her wine or not.

Yeah well anyway, my point is that there were quite enough clues for a smart guy like Aziz Ansari to figure out that she wasn't into him. I don't believe he was confused or unable to tell, he was just a jerk.

Disclaimer: it's her side of the story and we weren't there and so on. But it doesn't seem like he denies the basic description of the encounter, he's just sorry that she was offended and wants to label it as consensual sex  when it quite clearly wasn't, if her story checks out.

 

aziz1.PNG

aziz2.PNG

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Yeah, people are saying she didn't communicate with him, but when he put her hand on his penis and she moved it off that was communication. When she said she didn't want to feel forced and he agreed to just "chill" that was communication, but right after that he stuck his penis in her face. I just don't buy that men are so dumb they can't read signals like that.

There was a great article about this back in November, The Myth of the Male Bumbler. A few quotes:

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Male bumblers are an epidemic.

These men are, should you not recognize the type, wide-eyed and perennially confused. What's the difference, the male bumbler wonders, between a friendly conversation with a coworker and rubbing one's penis in front of one? Between grooming a 14-year-old at her custody hearing and asking her out?

The world baffles the bumbler. He's astonished to discover that he had power over anyone at all, let alone that he was perceived as using it. What power? he says. Who, me?

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Allow me to make a controversial proposition: Men are every bit as sneaky and calculating and venomous as women are widely suspected to be. And the bumbler — the very figure that shelters them from this ugly truth — is the best and hardest proof.

Breaking that alibi means dissecting that myth. The line on men has been that they're the only gender qualified to hold important jobs and too incompetent to be responsible for their conduct.

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If you've noticed a tendency to treat girls — like the 14-year-old whom now-Senate candidate Roy Moore allegedly picked up at her custody hearing — as knowing adults and men in their 30s — like Trump foreign policy adviser George Papadopoulos and Donald Trump, Jr. — as erring youngsters, large sons and "coffee boys," this is why. Our culture makes that script available. It's why Sessions is so often referred to as an "elf" instead of a gifted manipulator (here's a very clever analysis of his strategy, which weaponizes our tendency to read white men — even very old attorneys with a long history of maliciously undermining civil rights — as slow, meandering children who know not what they do.)

 

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I see a lot of men going "I don't understand. Why didn't she just leave? What is the problem?"

Ugh...

I wouldn't feel comfortable saying "No" when I am completely alone and if he didn't take the news well or got violent, I'd have no way to protect myself. I'd have to have made up some excuse to get out of the room like "BRB about to puke!" which would be awkward and uncomfortable as well. Tucker Carlson literally said "What is wrong with a woman saying no?" Like, really Tucker? Can you imagine being a woman with a man and being afraid the news would not go over well???? Also, I absolutely hate Ben Shapiro, that guy is so wickedly cruel and thinks he's the shit.

Edited by luv2laugh
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On 1/15/2018 at 6:30 AM, VelociRapture said:

Oh, I know a lot is coming out about Franco now. I’m just genuinely confused by his response in those interviews. He’s saying stuff like the accusations aren’t accurate in his opinion, but he believes in the Me Too movement enough not to silence his accusers? Dude... you either fucked up or you didn’t. If you did, just offer a genuine apology and start taking real steps to make yourself into less of a trashy person.  

You know what, I actually kinda like his response. The apologies and impossible to tell genuineness of them is wearing me thin.  So, I take that as 'I have a different version but I don't want to silence or false apologise. Hear them out'.   I'm sure he's been sleazy and does not want to go there; just seems refreshing over the standard verbage 'I take full responsibility,  I'm so sorry'.  Like, whatever dude.  Your sorry you got caught.  James just may have thought about it.  

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Samantha Bee talked about the backlash to MeToo and the article on Aziz Ansari and I love her for it. A few quotes from her piece:

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A lot of people are worried about Aziz Ansari's career, which no one is trying to end because, again, we know the difference between a rapist, a workplace harasser and an Aziz Ansari. That doesn't mean we have to be happy about any of them.

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People like me had to wade through a sea of prehensile dicks to build the world we now enjoy, and part of enjoying that world is setting a higher standard for sex than just not rape. And women get to talk about it if men don't live up to those standards, especially if that man wrote a book about how to sex good,

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What many fail to understand is that it doesn't have to be rape to ruin your life, and it doesn't have to ruin your life to be worth speaking out about,

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I'm sorry that anyone ever thought the contents of that list or any of the other ways we protect ourselves from men were your goddamn business. I'm sorry you thought you got to choose what experiences we can share or how we react to the shitty ways we've been treated. And to men, specifically, I'm sorry our request to be respected makes office culture a little less fun and flirty. And I'm sorry that we tattled on that stuff you did on us even when it was totally not rape.

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Men, if you say you're a feminist, then fuck like a feminist. And if you don't wanna do that, take off your fuckin' pin, because we are not your accessories.

The whole thing:

 

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One of my friends is accusing people who are mad about Aziz Ansari of implicit racism because they have denounced him after he's had "only one accuser" while white men are only denounced after having multiple accusers.  I really don't know how to respond to that.

I saw multiple people on Facebook claiming that men as a whole are bad at understanding non-verbal signals for "no."  In response, my friend posted a link to an article about a study of this.  Basically, men DO understand non-verbal signals--they just ignore them when they don't line up with the answer that they want.  

https://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2011/03/21/mythcommunication-its-not-that-they-dont-understand-they-just-dont-like-the-answer/

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Yeah, from the little I know about Scott Baio, that doesn't surprise me.

SNL had a couple skits last night referencing the ongoing scandals.

Here's "Next," an antiperspirant for men who are going to be accused.

And an attempt to discuss the Aziz Ansari scandal. I was nervous about what they would say and so could very much relate to the characters in the skit. It did kind of bug me that the only ones who finished a thought were the men defending Aziz.

 

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