Your Wig Isn't Modest Enough

[front hugs > duggs]

Serious question because I do not know. I know when people convert to Judaism, it's very very common for them to convert Orthodox, even if they plan on being reform or conservative (even conservative rabbis may not "accept" them if not converted Orthodox). I can see how Ivanka would convert Orthodox, but do they actually identify as Orthodox?

[MamaJunebug]

On 11/7/2017 at 6:41 AM, CuttySark said:

 

Bupkis to see here!! OK, back under the warm rock for me.

 

 

Edited November 21, 2017 by MamaJunebug

[Eponine]

4 hours ago, front hugs > duggs said:

Serious question because I do not know. I know when people convert to Judaism, it's very very common for them to convert Orthodox, even if they plan on being reform or conservative (even conservative rabbis may not "accept" them if not converted Orthodox). I can see how Ivanka would convert Orthodox, but do they actually identify as Orthodox?

Jared was raised Modern Orthodox so I don't see any reason he wouldn't identify as that, unless he's specifically changed his religious practices. I assume Ivanka kind of goes along with his practice, although I have no evidence for that.

Obviously their interpretation of Modern Orthodoxy is a bit more liberal and looks different from many others who identify as Modern Orthodox. I live in an area with a wide variety of practicing Jewish communities - all groups of Hasidim, the whole spectrum of Orthodoxy, etc - and I don't think they seem particularly unusual for those on the liberal side of Modern Orthodoxy.

[SusanAtTheLastBattle]

10 hours ago, front hugs > duggs said:

Serious question because I do not know. I know when people convert to Judaism, it's very very common for them to convert Orthodox, even if they plan on being reform or conservative (even conservative rabbis may not "accept" them if not converted Orthodox). I can see how Ivanka would convert Orthodox, but do they actually identify as Orthodox?

In my experience, people generally convert with a rabbi in the denomination/community they mean to join. 

Conservative rabbis require a conversion with the traditional rituals (like immersing in a mikvah), so they wouldn't accept a Reform conversion that didn't involve those things. They would accept either a Conservative or an Orthodox conversion. (It makes sense that a Conservative rabbi would accept a Conservative conversion, right? They would accept someone whose conversion they themselves supervised... Otherwise why do it?)

If you convert with a non-Orthodox rabbi, Orthodox people will not accept you as Jewish, but this does not affect a non-Orthodox person's life very much (unless you live in Israel). And an Orthodox rabbi will probably not agree to convert you if they know you don't intend to follow the laws and live an Orthodox life.

Sometimes people who are religious seekers will convert with a more liberal rabbi, then decide to become Orthodox and have to convert again. Yisrael Campbell converted with a Reform rabbi, then a Conservative rabbi, then an Orthodox one, and wrote a one-man comedy show about it.

[CrazyLurkerLady]

I've never really understood the covering with a wig thing. If showing hair isn't modest, how is it more modest to show something that looks the same as your real hair? What's the difference if it looks exactly the same either way? Can someone smarter than me please explain this to me.

[Eponine]

11 hours ago, CrazyLurkerLady said:

I've never really understood the covering with a wig thing. If showing hair isn't modest, how is it more modest to show something that looks the same as your real hair? What's the difference if it looks exactly the same either way? Can someone smarter than me please explain this to me.

I'm not the most qualified person to answer this, but I'll give it a shot.

There is some controversy about wearing sheitels for that reason - these days they can be so realistic that there functionally isn't much of a difference. So there are some groups who have rejected super real-looking wigs because they don't meet modesty standards: their point is to make the wearer look more attractive.

However, I think that whether it's real-looking or not doesn't matter to a lot of people: the law is simply to cover the hair, and as long as it's covered, that's it. My understanding is that there is no specific instructions on how the hair is supposed to be covered so interpretation can be fairly open. I came across this interesting compilation of advice (apparently from the '50s) that stresses people shouldn't ask WHY the hair needs to be covered, and simply respect that it does need to be: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/72875/jewish/Wearing-A-Sheitel.htm

That comes from Chabad, so doesn't apply to all groups. It's interesting that they keep saying wigs are preferable because they're "impossible" to remove while a woman is out in public, thus making wigs preferable to scarves, which are much easier to remove (?).

On the other hand, in my observation other Hasidic groups prefer tichels (scarves). So, obviously there is no consensus and it seems largely up to individual preference.

**Please note, I'm not Jewish and not an expert on any of this! But my local fundies are pretty much exclusively Jewish so they're definitely the religious groups I'm most familiar with on a personal level.

[ven]

there is a term for overly modern orthodox jewish women . 

i proudly present the " hot chani"

you can find them on google facebook etc .. think jinjer, and u will get a long way 

Edited November 23, 2017 by ven

[ven]

On 22-11-2017 at 4:32 AM, CrazyLurkerLady said:

I've never really understood the covering with a wig thing

the answer to that one is indeed quite simple : you need to cover, but how exactly it should be executed is not described ... the jewish religion is based on rabbis interpreting what is written before , so it is constantly evolving . There is a concensus among quite a lot of jewish women that " covering" should not make u look " ugly" so there comes the 4000 dollar wigs ! 

[Granwych]

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 4:54 PM, ven said:

the answer to that one is indeed quite simple : you need to cover, but how exactly it should be executed is not described ... the jewish religion is based on rabbis interpreting what is written before , so it is constantly evolving . There is a concensus among quite a lot of jewish women that " covering" should not make u look " ugly" so there comes the 4000 dollar wigs ! 

I've read where the late Rabbi Schneerson kept a sum of money to buy a woman a decent sheitel should her family not be able to do so.  When I managed a wig dept in a store, there were several Jewish ladies who bought wigs from me.

[MamaJunebug]

It’s back in the news: extremists vs. non-extremists. The stories of bullyingbif little girls sndca mom and her daughters infuriate me. 

Corollary is the “list boys”’ofvtge haredi world in Israel. A few parallels to FLDS lost boys but not quite the same situation, AFAICS.

Jew against Jew. Distressing!!!

[Marmion]

Standards of dress varies across various groups .  In some it would appear that even girls might wear the tichel , as evidenced by this music video I found .  

 Here is what Andrea Greenberg , AKA Wrapunzel , has to say on the topic .  https://wrapunzelblog.com/2015/05/20/tichels-vs-sheitals-what-wrapunzel-has-to-say/