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samurai_sarah

Carry on from here:

 

Last post by @Jaeniduggar

Quote

Ok, I read this thread for a while, being a bit apprehensive about getting involved, but here it is. My obsession with the Duggars went from mild interest to an obsession when the scandal hit the air.

Because I had similar things happen to me. My brother molested me (in hindsight heavily) from 6 years old on for a few years. I didn't understand that it was wrong what he asked from me. He never really forced me either. He was four years older and able to convince me, to beg me, to do it. Innocent little me didn't know better. It stopped when we moved and we had coincidentally our room in two different floors. I have never had PTSD. I have never been to a therapist. I have a very fulfilled, sexually active relationship for a while now. I have had other sexually active relationships before, even a ONS. From what I can judge, I live a happy, purposeful life. This does not negate my experience and does not make me any less of a victim. Every victim is still a victim. Like a poster before said, this is not abuse Olympics. No matter how a victim chooses/can live their lives post-abuse does not take away the experience.

 

 

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cascarones

@Jaeniduggar I'm glad you got involved, and really, truly glad you're in a happy, healthy relationship. The quote is coming up off since it's not from the original post, but I can't agree more with your statement.

54 minutes ago, samurai_sarah said:

. This does not negate my experience and does not make me any less of a victim. Every victim is still a victim.

I feel partially responsible for starting that shit show of thread drift, so I'm sorry everyone. I said little and let other people's claws come out, because I was seriously taken aback that we were having to have this fucking conversation. What was already closer to the top of my mind, due to it being quite close to the anniversary and Mr. C having just gotten back from a work trip where unbeknownst to him he stayed at the same hotel, four doors down from where I had the longest night of my life. He liked the room, loved the hotel, wants us to go back, flirting and trying to steal the brownie batter spoon with hints that he wanted sweet fellowship time.  He got alarmed at how aggressively I was tearing cabbage leaves off, realized what was up and we stayed up late in the hopes I'd sleep better, but also because we discovered the epic train wreck that is the 90 day fiance franchise (Dear Rufus, please let there be a thread on that). 

Sometimes it hits and it stings and I cannot fucking imagine having to deal with it played out in the media years later. Continuously thrown in your face or your husband's face every time they speak. Unless Derick is wishing me some happy food day, I don't agree with anything coming out of his twitter fingers, but I also can't imagine it's pleasant to be reminded your wife was abused and he should minister to his wayward BIL every five seconds. He knows what his BIL is, his wife knows, we all know, but I cringe for Jill every time I see those comments on every single post. That's her reality though and it's a reality and narrative she didn't chose for herself. We talk about abuse victims having their own narrative, etc, but these girls had that taken away from them when the easily identifiable documents were published. They are forced into being perpetual victims through no fault of their own.

They've got a right to sue, even if it is just for personal vengeance. 

 

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Fluffy14

While I'm on a roll for pissing people off. I have a question for law degreed people.

How does a court of law come to monetary awards for varying degrees of sexual abuse?  Or any abuse for that matter. 

I was under the impression judgement of the offender, and awards of money to the victim was based on damage Done? 

Are suing suits evaluated in the same way.

If the courts can decide monetary damage done to any victim based on the results of damage done to that person it's okay.

Lets be clear here we all cheer when an offender gets a harsh sentence. And we all cheer when a victim of horrific assault gets a massive monetary award.  We all judge based it on damage done.

And if you were all honest with yourselves you would say yes.

I was talking to @Greendoor about the nature on Freejinger and its true. YOu are a harsh bunch of people. If you say something the mass majority agree with you get high fives and up votes.

If you say something the masses disapprove of you get down votes. I had to  learn the hard way that sometimes a disagreeable point of view causes trouble for the poster.  And like me at the time , I think it was one of the administrators had to fill me in on the nature of freejinger.  Which I was completely unaware of at the time.

I don't have to agree to the majority vote. I can stick by my opinion. And to the poster on the other threads about my 3am thought drift, that's exactly what it was a 3 am thought drift. So whatever. You can blather on about that till the cows come home.

And people on here do express their opinions and thoughts.

""yeah how not. Everything is fine as long as YOU can say whatever you think> As soon as others state what they think and you get your ass handed to you for diminishing abuse and victim blaming then suddenly FJ is "too tough"  and there are unwritten rules. " ((FUCK THAT SHIT IS RIGHT.  LA PAPESSAGiANNOVA))

I was talking to Greendoor about the nature of this website  and how the claws come out . Because they do. And getting my ass handed to me is a part of Freejinger I accept that.

Not because I can't handle what is said. Like I referred to up  a couple of sentences up. I learned at the beginning of the year , or even last year how it works on here and got informed by admin that this is how it works. And that is all I was referring to . So get your panties out of it's knot. 

And I do like this place because people can say their opinion. And that they can do it anonymously. 

And no matter what kind of interpretation comes from my posts or opinions I still like it that I can say them. Just like you or anyone else. Everyone has an opinion and we may agree or disagree with them. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Fluffy14
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samurai_sarah

@Fluffy14

What do you want people to say? What, in your opinion, is the right way to react to all of this?

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llg1234

Venturing back in to share this

We knew JD's been in Texas, but I wonder if Josiah's been there the whole time as JD's accountability buddy or if he's just in town for the ALERT shindig. I wonder if any of the younger Duggars are there as well.

Edited by llg1234

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Fluffy14

@samurai_sarah  No I really want to know.  When my daughter had her headinjury lawsuit against the insurance company it was based on damages done. 

I want to know from a seriously degreed lawyer or someone in that field if that is how it is awarded. 

And of course if the courts and judgments of the land base there monetary award on it , it does give some merit to evaluation of my original statement about the Duggar girls awarding in their suit.  I have no idea about suing suits  at all and I would like to know how the money thing is figured out. Do they immediately get what they asked? Or is it evaluated some how? And what is the criteria?   Just like the Danica Dillon suit, if it had moved forward how would that have been evaluated?

 

Edited by Fluffy14

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justoneoftwo

In my experience damages were based on the money you are out. So for assaults it would usually be based upon the amount you paid for therapy.  If you were unable to work due to it you could have lost income.  There is also "pain and suffering" which (again in my experience ) is around 50-100% of your damages over again.  

Finally there are punitive damages, which are not based upon your injury but upon what the other party did and can afford.  The point there is to make it so the defendant won't be all "well its worth it as part of doing business" and to punish them.  This can be any amount.  Often (I think most states) the state actually gets half of this (or half of it over a particular amount).  

For the Duggars, I expect they would have to show the amount out they were for dealing with it, and they would try to argue that it is why they lost their show.  Then pain and suffering and punitive.  

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Bad Wolf
6 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

and they would try to argue that it is why they lost their show.  Then pain and suffering and punitive.  

Good points. It was the parents and younger children who lost the show. The victims are still being filmed. I like the rest of your explanations. Thank you.

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VelociRapture

@Fluffy14I think you may have misunderstood @samurai_sarah - I’m pretty sure she was asking what you feel the proper response is to someone victim blaming other victims... not whether you were seriously looking for an answer to your questions regarding damages in a court case.

(I’m not a lawyer nor am I a Certified Internet Law Expert, so I won’t offer an opinion. It appears others have offered answers though, so hopefully they were able to help.)

23 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

Good points. It was the parents and younger children who lost the show. The victims are still being filmed. I like the rest of your explanations. Thank you.

Jessa and Jill may be able to argue lost wages. There was footage that never aired for the next season of 19 Kids and a four or five month gap before the three specials would have been filmed and aired. I wouldn’t be shocked if the two of them could argue for wages lost during that period. 

Joy and Jinger I’m not too sure about. I don’t believe either of them had major storylines going on, right? 

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Fluffy14
44 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

If you were unable to work due to it you could have lost income.  

Is there criteria for proving that you couldn't work? Is that based on a Dr. or a therapist?

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SamiKatz

Personally, I think if the lawsuit causes there to be a change in how private information about crime victims is released, it will have been successful.  

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justoneoftwo
6 minutes ago, Fluffy14 said:

Is there criteria for proving that you couldn't work? Is that based on a Dr. or a therapist?

In my experience this is complicated.  A therapist can show you couldn't work, but would be questioned.  A doctor can show it, and the same is true.  If you can prove you were fired because of it that would do it as well.  

For them I think they would have to show that the show was canceled because of it (easy) and that the new show is paying them less (if true).  They would also have to show that they couldn't get the same income through something else.  

I expect TLC is paying less, and didn't pay Joy and Jinger for years, so there will be some argument there.  As to why they couldn't mitigate those damages?  Thats a harder one, and not a conversation they are likely to want to have.  

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SassyPants

In terms of a therapist showing that they could not work- shit, every single adult named Duggar or married to a Duggar had better get in on that action. 

Aside from the show, none of those girls has ever held a paying job, have they?

When you live outside the basic constructs of our society and community, it's likely very hard for the established elements of our society to be able to adjudicate for you- What about pain and suffering? They were basically held captive in the very home where the abuse was happening. If  something one of your sibs did to you bothered you, you were forced to forgive, give up your treasured item and move on. EFF JB and his wife. EFF them. Your oldest kid is molesting his sibs and you continue to have MORE kids-EFF you.

It's so, so odd and sad what JB and M Duggar have done to these 19 people- they are foreign to our world and society in general, yet want the legal system to fix problems that arose directly from their parents' actions.

And the reason I am so pissed off here is because after all of that, these girls are exploiting their own marriages and kids too.

They learned nothing in all of this.

They're all young...they could get educated and get jobs like everyone else. They could make different better decisions.

One can be devoutly religious and NOT exploit their own family for financial gain!

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Palimpsest
1 hour ago, justoneoftwo said:

For them I think they would have to show that the show was canceled because of it (easy) and that the new show is paying them less (if true).  They would also have to show that they couldn't get the same income through something else.  

I'm beginning to wonder whether this law suit will shed some light on those super confidential Reality TV contracts too if it goes to trial.  With something as uncertain and as vulnerable to cancellation as a Reality TV show it might be hard to demonstrate loss of income.

The few contracts that have been leaked show that Discovery (TLC), and I think Bravo too, prefers to have a single family contract covering the family - the parents and minor children.  Those contracts contain clauses that imply they can be ended at any time and for any reason.  They also contain morals clauses.  (See Mama June threatening to sue after Honey Boo Boo was yanked when she was caught cavorting with a known child molester because TLC did not act as fast with cancelling 19K&C.)   

Josh's behavior combined with the Duggar parents' lack of transparency and failure to report could have invoked a similar morals clause.  Jinger and Joy were still minors when 19K&C was cancelled and would still be under that contract.

All the young adults obviously have to sign a consent to be filmed agreement once they turn 18.  However, it has always been unclear whether they negotiate their own contracts then, or whether they wait until they marry.

Jill and Jessa were both adult and married when 19K&C was cancelled. 

So, hypothetically, if Jill and Jessa had their own contracts when 19k&C was cancelled (for violation of a morals clause) then they hadn't violated their own contracts and that might explain why Discovery (TLC) made them the stars of Counting On.  Jinger and Joy have also presumably been compensated for appearing on Counting On.  No earnings obviously lost there so it would be hard for any of them to prove huge damages.

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JillsFlowerHeadband
2 hours ago, SamiKatz said:

Personally, I think if the lawsuit causes there to be a change in how private information about crime victims is released, it will have been successful.  

I would hope that if something comes of the whole sorry mess, it would be this very thing. 

Honestly, I don’t care about the money end of things or people trying to decide what “value” someone’s pain and shame should have. (That sounds a little bit like backpedaling from the nastiness to me, but whatever.) What I do care about is this: you may find Jill annoying or think Jessa is smug as hell but- despite that, these young women did NOT deserve to have painful childhood events thrown out there for public consumption and gossip purposes. Their parents may have covered it up, but the awful actions of the awful parents don’t negate a victim’s right to have their identity shielded, no matter who they are. 

@VelociRapture thank you for your kind words in the last thread. Mr JFH and I discussed a little more on the subject and he said the exact thing you commented on, that even though his parents believed him when he finally got the courage to tell them what happened once he became a young adult, he had a feeling that some of his other relatives didn’t because of the mindset that it just doesn’t happen to boys. :( (He also thanks you for the online reptilian hugs) 

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KelseyAnn
4 hours ago, Fluffy14 said:

they can do it anonymously. 

And no matter what kind of interpretation comes from my posts or opinions I still like it that I can say them. Just like you or anyone else. Everyone has an opinion and we may agree or disagree with them. 

 

 

 

NOBODY is angry/upset you had an opinion. We're angry upset that your opinion is victim-blaming and dismissive of human suffering. And personally, I'm angry because I feel you have a history of posting inflammatory things and then giving non-apologies after you're called out. 

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Palimpsest
3 hours ago, SamiKatz said:

Personally, I think if the lawsuit causes there to be a change in how private information about crime victims is released, it will have been successful.  

Agreed.  I hope the lawsuit draws attention to victims' rights to privacy all by itself.  If the Duggar sisters win (or settle), I hope they donate some of the monies to victims advocacy and support networks. 

That said, they would earn respect from me if, win, settle or lose, they go on to advocate and lobby for victims rights to privacy, and for changes in the FOIA as it has the potential to expose the identities of survivors whether Duggars or not. 

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Fluffy14
1 hour ago, KelseyAnn said:

NOBODY is angry/upset you had an opinion. We're angry upset that your opinion is victim-blaming and dismissive of human suffering. And personally, I'm angry because I feel you have a history of posting inflammatory things and then giving non-apologies after you're called out. 

In none of my posts did I ever BLAME any Duggar girl or state that she was AT FAULT for her abuse in any way shape or form. I went back and read them all. It appears I am dismissive in my original post based on flippant word choices of my comments which I made amends to others on this page

. My opinion that I don't think they should be awarded money doesn't  victim blame. I state I don't think they should be awarded money based on what I see on their TV show, and the drive to reviictimize themselves ( Anna on TV post Josh scandal) and the girls on the Megan Kelly interviews and a massive history of money grabbing by the family by using their children as pawns.

The courts, the jury and the public  have set a standard in which we judge damages rendered to abuse victims based on many criteria of the outcome of abuse done do to that victim. Because I publicly made my judgements known based on what I See on a TV show, is what everyone is up in arms about. It then turned to outrage and peoples  interpretations of victim blaming.

If anyone showed more outrage on the Internet on various FB pages in defence of the girls and what Josh did it was me. I wrote letters to every frigging person I could think of repetitively in defence of them and others in general.  To say I am void of the girls human suffering is ridiculous.  It's obvious they suffered. I just don't think in their particular situation they have given me enough evidence through WHAT THEY HAVE SAID DONE and THEIR OWN actions concerning themselves by going back on TV , iT SHOWS DAMAGES in the amount they stated on their court documents.  My opinions and comments are and have been always based what I have viewed on TV. Not what I assume they felt or experienced. 

The only  other comments where I received down votes was concerning fundamentalism in the states vs Canada so it is a brief history of inflammatory comments.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Fluffy14
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Destiny

@fluffy14 stating a gross option is your right. It’s also my right to call you an asshole for it, which I am now doing.
You, madam, are an asshole.

While I’m at it,@greendoor it’s ok cos they weren’t penetrated (that we know of) is gross. You are also an asshole.

Edited by Destiny
fixing broken spacing. I hate you tapa.
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Fluffy14
2 minutes ago, Destiny said:

@fluffy14 stating a gross option is your right. It’s also my right to call you an asshole for it, which I am now doing.
You, madam, are an asshole.
While I’m at it,@greendoor it’s ok cos they weren’t penetrated (that we know of). You are also an asshole.

And I fully respect the fact you think I am an asshole.  

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Maggie Mae

They are women, @Fluffy14, not girls. Married women with children in some cases. 

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Greendoor
26 minutes ago, Destiny said:

While I’m at it,@greendoor it’s ok cos they weren’t penetrated (that we know of). You are also an asshole.

Thank you for your gracious comment.

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KelseyAnn
38 minutes ago, Fluffy14 said:

 

I state I don't think they should be awarded money based on what I see on their TV show, and the drive to reviictimize themselves ( Anna on TV post Josh scandal) and the girls on the Megan Kelly interviews and a massive history of money grabbing by the family by using their children as pawns.

 

 

 

2

I swear to God, I feel you're being purposely obtuse. Just the fact that you feel they don't 'deserve money' because they appear happy/unaffected is victim blaming. Tell me, Fluffy, did I deserve to have an entire jury call me a liar about being raped because I couldn't tell them the exact goddam hour it happened? Did I deserve to have my school think I was a whore because I didn't report it right away and because the dickslap lived with me? 

Unto your 're-victimize' remark, how DARE you. A victim does NOT revictimize themselves. Only others do that. If anyone is revictimizing these girls/women- its people like you who dismiss/lessen thier hurts because they're famous and seemingly well-adjusted now. Tell me, Fluffy, did I revictimize myself when I spilled my heart out in a college essay? Was I 'attention-seeking?' 

I feel as if you're a troll or just heartless, without an ounce of sympathy. 

38 minutes ago, Fluffy14 said:

And I fully respect the fact you think I am an asshole.  

It's not so much what we think as what you've shown to be true...

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cascarones

I too am curious on how damages are awarded and if more about their contracts will come to light. When claiming lost income, do they have to claim it as an individual or can they claim "lost family income" at the couple level. My timeline of events might be off, but the scandal broke around when Derick left Walmart and they left for CA, could the Dillard's argue using his Walmart salary and such severe emotional trauma they moved to a remote country to have some peace in assessing damages? Or is it only Jill's potential income? In my head, it makes logical sense to include the financial impact on the entire family, but I'm not familiar with the legal  precedents.

ETA: @KelseyAnn all of the virtual hugs, chocolate, affectionate kitty headbumps I can send your way.

Edited by cascarones
posted right after something

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KelseyAnn
8 minutes ago, cascarones said:

I too am curious on how damages are awarded and if more about their contracts will come to light. entire family, but I'm not familiar with the legal  precedents.

ETA: @KelseyAnn all of the virtual hugs, chocolate, affectionate kitty headbumps I can send your way.

3

Thanks for the well-wishes, this is just a hot-topic issue for me. 

On the topic of rewards, I tried googling but each state is different and each judge is different so I really can't give a concrete answer without worrying its inaccruate. 

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