Harvey Weinstein the Sexual Harasser

[uselesstrivia]

15 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

@uselesstriviaVictim blaming is never ok, regardless of who the victims are. And yes, questioning why a victim failed to speak out earlier is very much victim blaming. 

 

You are right and I sincerely apologize. All of these women were victimized and It was not my intent to insinuate that all or any were at fault for what happened to them. I wish them all godspeed in whatever recovery they can grasp onto.  There are men speaking out now that were victimized as well and and any voice that sheds a light is good. 

My issue is with those that want to take tragedy and turn it into theater. YMMV of course. I feel like Rose McGowan is trying to make this her personal stage -- there are people that suffered in silence; people who bravely stepped out on a cliff; people who tried to use their voice and were shouted or beat down - all of those people should be applauded, protected comforted and helped in any way possible.   I think she is using this as her next opportunistic vehicle and I find it as distasteful as Ben Affleck and others with their phony outrage.

[VelociRapture]

30 minutes ago, uselesstrivia said:

You are right and I sincerely apologize. All of these women were victimized and It was not my intent to insinuate that all or any were at fault for what happened to them. I wish them all godspeed in whatever recovery they can grasp onto.  There are men speaking out now that were victimized as well and and any voice that sheds a light is good. 

My issue is with those that want to take tragedy and turn it into theater. YMMV of course. I feel like Rose McGowan is trying to make this her personal stage -- there are people that suffered in silence; people who bravely stepped out on a cliff; people who tried to use their voice and were shouted or beat down - all of those people should be applauded, protected comforted and helped in any way possible.   I think she is using this as her next opportunistic vehicle and I find it as distasteful as Ben Affleck and others with their phony outrage.

You are blaming a victim for how she is reacting to news that is extremely pertinent to her life. Of course she’s upset and lashing out about this - she was raped by Harvey Weinstein and had to keep silent about it for twenty years due to a non-disclosure agreement (which she likely only agreed to because that settlement probably felt like the closest thing to justice she’d ever see and not taking a settlement would have absolutely ended her fledgling career!) She has every right to react how she is right now and I find it appalling that anyone would see fit to judge her for that.

Rose’s reaction is in NO WAY comparable to the false outrage by Ben Affleck. Her outrage is real. Her pain is real. Her anger and embarrassment and shame are all real. And on top of all that, she is now publicly reliving what happened to her. No one has the right to judge her for how she is reacting. No one.

 http://www.vulture.com/2017/10/rose-mcgowan-says-harvey-weinstein-raped-her.html

As for Twitter, I find their locking of her account laughable. Not because she didn’t violate their terms with the picture, but because they finally decided to enforce one of the terms of use after years of racist, sexist, and violent content (all of which also are supposedly barred) being allowed on the site. Not to mention they’ve allowed Donald Trump to continue using his personal account, which could end with us all dying in nuclear war with North Korea at this point. Twitter gets exactly no sympathy from me.

[Ignorance Bread]

Also, Malia Obama interned for Harvey Weinstein
 
http://www.newsweek.com/malia-obama-harvey-weinstein-accusations-680950
 
This guy is disgusting. Why has it taken so long for this to come to light!?
 
 
 
 

Because there are a ton of steps to bringing him to justice and they all suck for the woman. She has to convince people to believe her. She has to find people who care. Then she has to get people who care enough to help her - the more powerful the person, the harder that part will be. Then years of legal hell where she has to tell the story of being sexually humiliated over and over. At the end of all of that she maybe, maybe will have stopped him from sexually harassing another woman.

[uselesstrivia]

36 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

You are blaming a victim for how she is reacting to news that is extremely pertinent to her life. Of course she’s upset and lashing out about this - she was raped by Harvey Weinstein and had to keep silent about it for twenty years due to a non-disclosure agreement (which she likely only agreed to because that settlement probably felt like the closest thing to justice she’d ever see and not taking a settlement would have absolutely ended her fledgling career!) She has every right to react how she is right now and I find it appalling that anyone would see fit to judge her for that.

 

I find the whole career argument appalling.  Why is her career more important than anyone else?  We are not giving the men that covered it up a pass because they may have been worried about their careers. She was hurt and abused further by their silence and they should acknowledge that even if after the fact. Even if that was not their intention. Actions have consequences. 

 If it was the closest thing to justice she thought she would see she should say that and acknowledge the change only comes when darkness is brought to light. I would admire that.  We don't know that that's why she took the money. At least I don't. I have not heard her acknowledge that she accepted or signed anything except to say she legally couldn't contribute to the article.  The article she is now using to strengthen her case against those that did not help her.  I would just like her to acknowledge that there are those that came after her that could have used the strength her voice could have provided.  There were people hurt by her silence.  Even if that was not her intention.  It would be nice if she is going to now use her voice that  she acknowledged this as well. 

51 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

 

As for Twitter, I find their locking of her account laughable. Not because she didn’t violate their terms with the picture, but because they finally decided to enforce one of the terms of use after years of racist, sexist, and violent content (all of which also are supposedly barred) being allowed on the site. Not to mention they’ve allowed Donald Trump to continue using his personal account, which could end with us all dying in nuclear war with North Korea at this point. Twitter gets exactly no sympathy from me.

I don't like twitter and am not defending them. Twitter is horrible on a lot of different fronts.   But I cannot make the leap that its OK to break the rules because someone else did it.  Again its the whole "dark forces" drama that I find distasteful. 

I am passionate about about shining vivid light on abuse --anytime anyone is silent about -- for whatever reason - there are people left vulnerable to continued abuse. And some of those people don't intend them harm.  But the residual harm that silence causes needs to acknowledged too. Sometimes the reasons are explainable -- sometimes they to be explained.  It makes me angry when that is not addressed.  

I don't want to distract from the horror that is Harvey Weinstein all of the terror he caused so I am going to make this my last comment on Ms McGowan.

[ThunderRolls]

Yeah, this is definitely the tip of the iceberg about what goes on in Hollywood. There have been rumors swirling about Weinstein on the internet for years - when Ashley Judd came out with what happened to her (she didn't name Weinstein at the time), but people online guessed it was him based on stories that were already circulating. Weinstein is just one of many high profile Hollywood guys who have ongoing and persistent rumors.

The unfortunate thing is that  people do try to come forward, but they're bullied into silence or if they lawyer up and actually get a little traction going, they're again, bullied into silence and paid off (one of Bryan Singer's victims comes to mind...remember his name? No? Yeah, there's a reason why that's all but forgotten about). It's a very hard and lonely road to be the first person to speak out against someone powerful when no one around you but your attorney (if you can afford one) is supporting you (since the best most can do is a civil suit). It's a lot easier and safer to stay silent.

Sexual abuse is unfortunately one of those crimes that ends up continuing for a very long time because there is so much shame, victim blaming, and even confusion about what one understands to be an "assault." For example, a lot of adults and children who are coerced and manipulated into a sexual situation they really do not want or consent to don't realize they are raped because in their minds, rape is a violent act with punching and screaming and bruises. Victims of molestation versus penetrative assault frequently have a longer time working out what happened to them because they don't have physical "proof" of the violation that took place against them. I can certainly see how many of the women who are just now coming forward are doing so because others have said, "Hey, Harvey Weinstein assaulted me" - and they may be realizing for the first time that what they experienced would be defined as assault. I'm certain there is additional confusion in the entertainment industry where exploitation of women and children is the norm versus the exception. 

Sure, it would be the noble thing to be the sacrificial lamb and not take the payout and try to press forward, but time and again, victims are shut. down. Their names and reputations are smeared, everyone around them is telling them to back down, and everywhere they look, they're losing. Just because someone goes to the police, doesn't mean there would even be an investigation. Victims learn this pretty quickly, and sometimes, self-preservation takes priority. More often than not, it's a lose-lose for the victim. 

 

[Ignorance Bread]

I haven't worked in Hollywood, but when I was younger I worked in places where sexual harassment and assult was baked into the culture. If I complained, I got a pat on the head because I was naive enough to not know how the world really works. I was young and ambitious. I believed and trusted the "adults" around me. I imagine that it must be similar, but much worse, for a young starlette. I wouldn't put up with anything even remotely like that now, but that's because I have lived and worked outside of that industry.

[FundieFarmer]

Cara Delevigne today posted on Instagram that Weinstein not only was inappropriate with her directly but had an assistant ask her to meet him in his suite where another woman tried to make out with her in front of him. I can't do her post justice about how she felt. It was a truly horrifyingly sad read, and having your sexuality objectified like that as you were just discovering it must have been exceptionally difficult. It tells me that not only is Weinstein power hungry as all rapists are but also cruel.

[VelociRapture]

50 minutes ago, uselesstrivia said:

I find the whole career argument appalling.  Why is her career more important than anyone else?  We are not giving the men that covered it up a pass because they may have been worried about their careers. She was hurt and abused further by their silence and they should acknowledge that even if after the fact. Even if that was not their intention. Actions have consequences. 

 If it was the closest thing to justice she thought she would see she should say that and acknowledge the change only comes when darkness is brought to light. I would admire that.  We don't know that that's why she took the money. At least I don't. I have not heard her acknowledge that she accepted or signed anything except to say she legally couldn't contribute to the article.  The article she is now using to strengthen her case against those that did not help her.  I would just like her to acknowledge that there are those that came after her that could have used the strength her voice could have provided.  There were people hurt by her silence.  Even if that was not her intention.  It would be nice if she is going to now use her voice that  she acknowledged this as well. 

I understand you don’t wish to pursue this topic further abd I respect that, but I really feel this needs to be responded to.

Her career is not more important. But the reason she is given a pass is because she is the victim and had additional concerns while coping with that trauma on top of possibly worrying about how she would pay her bills. Economic concerns are a major reason why many victims, not just celebrities, do not report their assaults when their attacker is responsible for their employment opportunities (which was very much the case for Rose.)

I’m not going to blame every man in Hollywood who knew because some of them likely remained silent out of respect for a specific victim’s wishes. Pushing a victim to report or breaking their trust by reporting for them before they feel ready can be incredibly damaging and can take away what little control over the situation they feel they have left. Ben Affleck is a special case though since he also is accused of assaulting or harassing multiple women - he only just apologized for groping Hilarie Burton this week after about 14 years.

I will say this again - Rose McGowan was raped. That is a horrifically traumatizing event to not just survive, but to live with every single day thereafter. No victim has any obligation other than to take care of their own well-being*. For many victims, that may mean not reporting their assault immediately or at all - especially when dealing with a criminal justice system that isn’t setup to adequately support them or working in an industry where women are victimized on a regular basis and made to believe it’s no big deal. Insisting that a victim is obligated to report, even at the expense of their own well-being, or is somehow responsible for other people being harmed as a result of their not reporting implies that the victim is responsible for their attacker’s conduct and sends the wrong message about these crimes.

Its ridiculous we live in a society that would slut-shame women who step forward, while also blaming women who don’t. Rose McGowan is not responsible for the assaults or harassment of the other women - the only person who is responsible is Harvey Weinstein who willingly chose to commit those crimes. Instead of blaming her or any victim, people should be actively working towards creating a society and a justice system where all victims actually feel safe reporting their assaults and where sexual predators are actually held responsible for their actions.

*And by well-being, I mean that in every sense - physical, emotional, mental, spiritual, professional, etc.

[Beermeet]

Rose does not have to satisfy any one of "our" ideas of what she could've/should've done differently.   I get stabby when women do this to eachother.  She and all the other women and men on this planet who experienced sexual assault are incredibly brave to speak publicly about such a horrifying and very personal incident.  

[Beermeet]

I don't think I'm alone in feeling triggered by all of this.  I have not been raped but I have been groped, touched and called a slut for those unwanted disgusting humiliating  incidents by boys and girls who were there and did nothing to help me ( middle school and HS, so not adults yet).  I carry guilt over not handling it better, anger at them and myself.  If I needed to tell my story on a scale like this, I'd need sedatives.  

ETA:  group hug to all who know what I'm talking about.  It's not our fault, it happened, we did the best we could at the time.

[VelociRapture]

8 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

I don't think I'm alone in feeling triggered by all of this.  I have not been raped but I have been groped, touched and called a slut for those unwanted disgusting humiliating  incidents by boys and girls who were there and did nothing to help me ( middle school and HS, so not adults yet).  I carry guilt over not handling it better, anger at them and myself.  If I needed to tell my story on a scale like this, I'd need sedatives.  

ETA:  group hug to all who know what I'm talking about.  It's not our fault, it happened, we did the best we could at the time.

I haven’t been victimized, but I have only the deepest respect and sympathy for those that have. Take care of yourself, now and always, and never forget that none of what happened will ever be your fault.  

[OtterRuletheWorld]

2 hours ago, Ignorance Bread said:

Because there are a ton of steps to bringing him to justice and they all suck for the woman. She has to convince people to believe her. She has to find people who care. Then she has to get people who care enough to help her - the more powerful the person, the harder that part will be. Then years of legal hell where she has to tell the story of being sexually humiliated over and over. At the end of all of that she maybe, maybe will have stopped him from sexually harassing another woman.

I am not shaming the women and understand why is incredibly difficult to come forward. I am more horrified that these rumours have been circulating for years and the story was squashed multiple times. THAT is alarming to me, because if the Time's had any sort of lead on this or if any outlet opted to not run with this story, that is messed up. They had power to stop these women being victimized MUCH more than the women themselves had. Instead, they opted to not run with the story.  Meanwhile, we trust that the media is providing us with news.
 

edit because: I apparently hit the space bar a lot without noticing.

[Beermeet]

@OtterRuletheWorld. What is at the front of my mind are the child rape rumors, some not rumors but stopping at naming names.  Now that this out,  I really hope someone starts that conversation so others can follow safety in numbers style.  Because, that is happening fairly openly.  Just horrible.  

[HermioneSparrow]

I was sexually harassed by a guy who I thought was a friend a couple of years ago. It was horrifying and no one really knows about this (except my therapist), thankfully I scaped from the situation but I can't even imagine the pain and frustation these women must feel. As a victim of sexual harassment you just don't know what to do and people act different in these situations.

Hollywood is a pool of pervs, there's a bunch of rumors about other big producers and directors, rings of pedophilia, etc.

[FundieFarmer]

I'm surprised at how this situation is actually helping me heal. It's remarkable to know that women I look up to with strong careers and advocate for good things made the same choice as I did, for similar reasons, not to say anything. Like they did, I regret it and I know my decision may have put others at risk, and like them, I've since learned I wasn't the first person assaulted by my rapist...but also like them, the person who assaulted me was powerful and I actually did fear for my life and I felt I had everything to lose. Yes, I feel awful that he may yet hurt others. For me, I wanted never to be found or see him again. It is a horrifying, nauseating discovery and I feel for them that they went on to stay in professional circles with him. I knew I would've had no family support and truly thought I'd lose everything I'd worked so hard for as I think many of these women did. It's helping me to know if women who had much more money and powerful friends wouldn't stand up against this guy, well...I wasn't so alone in my choice.

 

[Ignorance Bread]

13 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

I am not shaming the women and understand why is incredibly difficult to come forward. I am more horrified that these rumours have been circulating for years and the story was squashed multiple times. THAT is alarming to me, because if the Time's had any sort of lead on this or if any outlet opted to not run with this story, that is messed up. They had power to stop these women being victimized MUCH more than the women themselves had. Instead, they opted to not run with the story.  Meanwhile, we trust that the media is providing us with news.
 

edit because: I apparently hit the space bar a lot without noticing.

I didn't see your comment as shaming. I figured that you were genuinely asking why women hadn't come forward sooner. 

The media didn't break the story for 1 of 2 reasons - either they were respecting the privacy of the victims or the Hollywood Good Old Boys Club is just that powerful.

[HermioneSparrow]

4 minutes ago, FundieFarmer said:

I'm surprised at how this situation is actually helping me heal. It's remarkable to know that women I look up to with strong careers and advocate for good things made the same choice as I did, for similar reasons, not to say anything. Like they did, I regret it and I know my decision may have put others at risk, and like them, I've since learned I wasn't the first person assaulted by my rapist...but also like them, the person who assaulted me was powerful and I actually did fear for my life and I felt I had everything to lose. That is a horrifying, nauseating discovery and I feel for them. I knew I would've had no family support and truly thought I'd lose everything I'd worked so hard for as I think many of these women did. It's helping me to know if women who had much more money and powerful friends wouldn't stand up against this guy, well...I wasn't so alone in my choice.

You are a brave human being, just know that.

[Beermeet]

I just want to say it's hard to know which reaction to choose.  Just know that anyone who is sharing or supporting,  I'd really like to use a few: Love, because woman to woman I love you.  Thanks, as in thank you for sharing. I agree ( despite the thumbs up...lol) because well, I agree, I get it and hear you.

[FundieFarmer]

You are a brave human being, just know that.

Thanks, HS. [emoji813]️

I'd love to get to a point where I could share my story and advocate for others, but I'm not there yet and there are extenuating factors. I am glad these women are speaking out.

[OtterRuletheWorld]

3 minutes ago, Ignorance Bread said:

I didn't see your comment as shaming. I figured that you were genuinely asking why women hadn't come forward sooner. 

The media didn't break the story for 1 of 2 reasons - either they were respecting the privacy of the victims or the Hollywood Good Old Boys Club is just that powerful.

I am guessing the later. Hollywood AND politicians are just that powerful. Disturbing to say the least. Both getting away with sexual abuse simply because they have that much power. Yuck.

 

[Beermeet]

3 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

I am guessing the later. Hollywood AND politicians are just that powerful. Disturbing to say the least. Both getting away with sexual abuse simply because they have that much power. Yuck.

 

The guilty protect the guilty.  It's beyond gross and disheartening how they intertwine.  Repubs had to answer for Rodger Alies, the dems for HW.

[OtterRuletheWorld]

There have been so many lately. It happens with both political parties. Another recent being Weiner. Getting an entire 21 months in prison. He just wasn't quite powerful enough to get away with no jail time and not quite enough people covering for his grossness. Close, but not quite close enough. It has nothing to do with political party or leanings. If you are that powerful, you can get away with a lot of things.

[Beermeet]

The political accountability confuses me and pisses me off.  I'm not really talking about the Weiner* type incidents like that politician from Pennsylvania.  More like, they both take lots of money from Fox and HW sorts and therefore get held accountable.   There should really be a law that rich entertainment people can't donate over $500 or something.  It's all so twisted and strange.  Dirty.

 *trying real hard to not Bevis and Butthead with that guy right now.

[OtterRuletheWorld]

The political accountability confuses me and pisses me off.  I'm not really talking about the Weiner* type incidents like that politician from Pennsylvania.  More like, they both take lots of money from Fox and HW sorts and therefore get held accountable.   There should really be a law that rich entertainment people can't donate over $500 or something.  It's all so twisted and strange.  Dirty.
 *trying real hard to not Bevis and Butthead with that guy right now.

I think Politics and Hollywood intertwine so much because they both have power AND have figured out how to make use out of one another.

I am happy Weiner got prison time, but "normal" people would never get away with the same kind of shit.

The political accountability confuses me and pisses me off.  I'm not really talking about the Weiner* type incidents like that politician from Pennsylvania.  More like, they both take lots of money from Fox and HW sorts and therefore get held accountable.   There should really be a law that rich entertainment people can't donate over $500 or something.  It's all so twisted and strange.  Dirty.
 *trying real hard to not Bevis and Butthead with that guy right now.

Also, love your B&B reference to Weiner. He is so gross.

[Beermeet]

Did you all know that Rose grew up in a cult/ commune in Tuscany?  "Children of God".  She got out and emancipated herself at 15.  There was a call for children to be sexually active.  She escaped that.  She credits Marilyn Manson for helping her sort things out.  I've been a fan of hers for a long time.  I still watch reruns of Charmed.