Kendra and Joe Duggar 6: Sitting in a tree...M.A.R.R.I.E.D!

[singsingsing]

18 minutes ago, CorruptionInc. said:

I know a woman like that, she is radical Hillsong.

Radical Hillsong? I always thought Hillsong was pretty mainstream. Or is it just that she's obsessed and completely consumed with it?

[closetcagebaby]

3 hours ago, singsingsing said:

Radical Hillsong? I always thought Hillsong was pretty mainstream. Or is it just that she's obsessed and completely consumed with it?

From what I've read, Hillsong is basically the JinJer of fundamentalism...seemingly mainstream-y, but all the same grossness under the surface. It's a pretty picture, but the substance is vile.

Though of course I think we all have our own ideas of what mainstream looks like!

[Scribber]

From what I've read, Hillsong is basically the JinJer of fundamentalism...seemingly mainstream-y, but all the same grossness under the surface. It's a pretty picture, but the substance is vile.
Though of course I think we all have our own ideas of what mainstream looks like!

This. 110% this.

(My day job is as an audio engineer at a mega church - so I have done my share of research into Hillsong and the like.)

[Kangaroo]

I live in the original Hillsong territory, and I know many that attend regularly. 

They've got immense wealth and power and have the shiny facade, but overall their teachings and practices are hurtful to the wider community. It might seem like hipster jesus's modern church, but their influence and power makes them far more dangerous than other groups. They still promote creationism, are against abortion and gay rights. There's ATMs in the foyer for you to get money out. And of course, their size has meant that they've rubbed shoulders with the rich and famous, and those in power.

Not only do they have their churches, here they have music sales, merchandise, training colleges, hell, they've even been involved in a TV network, shopping centres and a chain of coffee stores in Australia. A few years ago, they had revenue of over $80 million Australian dollars. All of which had no tax.

My friends who attended are really nice people, but when you realise how much that church sucks out of their pockets in exchange for some of the beliefs they get in return I can't get behind it.

[sansan]

OMG, my husband also pulls the sheets back on the bed, his side only. The only difference is he wants to get in bed without all the mechanics of moving pillows and pulling covers back, in other words, get the hell outta the way, I'm sleepy. If he did what Josh did and the reason why he does it, I would have to punch him in the throat or maybe lower than that. Josh is such a piece of crap and so disrespectful. 

[ophelia]

@Kangaroo: Thank you for giving so much insight into Hillsong. They are getting more and more popular in Germany (at least it feels like that!) and it is good to know that under their hipster surface, their beliefs are still fucked. 

[L1o2u3]

But I think most people that listen to Hillsong don't know that much about the theology. 

When I wrote my bachelor's thesis on Christian music, I found a paper about feminism and the role of women in Hillsong Church.  I only skimmed through it, because it wasn't about music, but theology and gender roles. But I've still got it on my laptop and will read it soon. 

It's called "Rise Up Warrior Princess Daughters. Is Evangelical Women's Submission a Mere Fairy Tale" by Marion Maddox. I found it on jstor. An abstract can be found under https://muse.jhu.edu/article/509039

edit: @ophelia they have a congregation in Düsseldorf! Have you ever been there? A friend of mine (Evangelical) went, but didn't like it that much. And I lived in Düsseldorf for 3 years and never found the time to visit. It would have been very interesting. I've been to another Pentecoastal church in Düsseldorf though, called New Life Church, and it was horrible and cult-like, I left when the "service" had been going on for 2,5 hours and there was no end in sight. They asked for my phone number so they could call me in case I didn't come to church again. And payed the teenagers for bringing their friends. Oh my. 

[ophelia]

@L1o2u3, no I've never been there and I don't plan to. Although I live close. I feel really fine in my kind of normal, maybe old fashioned, Lutheran church community. Especially because we have a really liberal pastor that preaches very well! And although I like the old protestant hymns (Paul Gerhardt, etc.) I have to admit that from time to time I play the Hillsong music on my iPhone. 

Thank you for posting this article. I might have use for it in an essay I have to write this semester. Are you also studying Theology?

[L1o2u3]

@ophelia Oh, I didn't mean to visit and consider it as an alternative! I would only go because I am curious (and like the music)  I would like to go to a "mainstream" protestant church that occasionally uses modern worship songs... so far I haven't found one :/ But when it comes to churches, with contemporary worship songs, they often have weird doctrines. 

No, I did English and American Studies and French Studies. And now I'm doing my master's in Applied Linguistics (in another town). I would love to study theology, but I don't know what I would do with it. It would be just for fun ^^

[ophelia]

@L1o2u3 My response was somehow posted in the wrong tone, I'm sorry! I didn't actually felt advised ;-)

I'm studying history and theology to become a teacher and I really like it. Especially theology. But you are right, there aren't too many options when you study theology and I would never see myself as a pastor. I'm more of a pastor's wife material, I guess. But not in a fundie way, of course!!

[singsingsing]

Yeah, I have a couple friends who went to Hillsong in Australia to study ministry (or whatever - I'm vague on the details, but it was like a 2-3 year program). Obviously they're both devout Christians, but they're very normal people. I wouldn't be surprised if they were opposed to gay marriage and abortion. Not sure where they stand on creationism. But that's fairly typical for a lot of mainstream Christians, still. (Please note that I'm not offering my personal judgement on whether those positions are good or bad, just that they're still not atypical in Christian circles.)

[victoriasponge]

I've been to Hillsong London with friends who go. Hated it. Even as an atheist, it was particularly unnerving. Too much forced 'tithing', determined evangelism, and a mission to convert the whole of London to their form of 'true' Christianity, whether they were wrong Christians, atheists or Muslims etc. Had a preacher speaking about how his wife's miscarriage was a sign from God or something and proved abortion was wrong. I'm not sure, I'm fuzzy on details.

Was very, very hipster and youth-centric though, so I can see their appeal. I'm just too sceptical of that kind of Christianity to accept it. It makes my friends happy though so good for them, I guess? As long as they still allow me to stand up for my beliefs and the beliefs of others. Lots of happy music, clapping and cheering, young singers/band, meetings afterwards where they chat over pizza and pasta in a local restaurant and the service is held in a West End theatre. It's obvious they're marketing themselves a certain way... I don't know, maybe I'm too cynical, but I just think the entire thing is a smokescreen for some of the worst of the Duggar-esque beliefs. 'We're the only true form of Christianity', 'prayer can cure everything', 'have all the children God gives you', 'convert the heathens... including other Christians' etc. For a church all about evangelism though, they couldn't have done anything more to have me running full pelt out the door, definitely didn't make me want to find out more or come back any time soon. If someone has any insight into whether what I experienced was typical or not, I'd be interested.

[L1o2u3]

The Pentecostal churches that I visited/ watched services online all were heavily mission focused, yes. The New Life Church pastor said something like "mission is the thing that matters the most for Christ" and everyone should bring their friends, because they are going to be rewarded (both in heaven and financially, one girl was given 5€ for bringing a friend). I watched a livestream from a Planetshakers concert and a service (Planetshakers is an Australian megachurch, like Hillsong) and it was all about tithing and giving to charities (they had a 20min break at the concert where they asked for money for World Vision. 20 Minutes!). 

I also watched a service by Bethel Church. Between the songs, the singer started to talk/sing a story about abortion or miscarriage as well. Very weird. 

The advantage of online services is that no one can stop you from leaving  like they tried at New Life Church. When I went home, a girl ran after me and asked if something was wrong? If I was okay? And if I had given them my phone number so they could call me to come to church? (They had already asked me before). I simply said that if I wanted to come back, I would be very well able not to forget that.  and ran as fast as I could. 

[Bad Wolf]

I went to the Harvest church in Riverside, CA  with friends once. Megachurch. We had breakfast in their cafe before the service. The sermon was recorded earlier, and delivered via satellite, so the pastor was never physically present. There was a rock band, but I was never sure if we were supposed to sing along. I felt more like I was audience, not congregation. However, many people seemed to enjoy it. Just not my cup of tea.

[just_ordinary]

6 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

I went to the Harvest church in Riverside, CA  with friends once. Megachurch. We had breakfast in their cafe before the service. The sermon was recorded earlier, and delivered via satellite, so the pastor was never physically present. There was a rock band, but I was never sure if we were supposed to sing along. I felt more like I was audience, not congregation. However, many people seemed to enjoy it. Just not my cup of tea.

To the bolded: SERIOUSLY??? But is it a real service then? This truly reads more like a "church show" than anything else. I have never heard of something like that. Why not staying at home than and watching a service on the tv or the internet?

Can I ask: Is this an American thing? Or just something that happened in this particular church? Have any non-American Fjs experienced this?

I am not sure why but this has startled me a bit. Definitely not a big church goer (like 4-6 Sundays a year) as is the rest of many people in my country. The churches have huge problems in finding pastors and then they often have to care for more than one congregation. A video service seems like a solution but I am sure people would stop going to church altogether. Just doesn't feel right

[feministxtian]

some megachurches have multiple campuses. The church we attended in Arizona was like that. They'd record the saturday night service and play it on sunday for all campuses. Not my cup of tea. They started doing it here in LV and that was one of many reasons why we left that church...

[Captain Obvious]

On 13/10/2017 at 2:47 PM, Kangaroo said:

I live in the original Hillsong territory, and I know many that attend regularly. 

They've got immense wealth and power and have the shiny facade, but overall their teachings and practices are hurtful to the wider community. It might seem like hipster jesus's modern church, but their influence and power makes them far more dangerous than other groups. They still promote creationism, are against abortion and gay rights. There's ATMs in the foyer for you to get money out. And of course, their size has meant that they've rubbed shoulders with the rich and famous, and those in power.

Whenever I think of them, I think of Rhys Muldoon's reaction to going to one of their services.

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/the-day-i-booed-in-church-20131107-2x3vq.html

(For those who don't know, Rhys is a TV actor and also a mainstream Christian. Also, by Liberal he means our Liberal National Party, which is conservative - it used to be more small-L liberal when founded, hence the name, but has since been taken over by right-wing nutjobs, like the one in my avatar.)

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

25 minutes ago, Captain Obvious said:

...but has since been taken over by right-wing nutjobs, like the one in my avatar.

I guess I hadn't looked very closely at your avatar before this. For some reason, I thought that it was a young Dennis Quaid. 

[Kangaroo]

45 minutes ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

I guess I hadn't looked very closely at your avatar before this. For some reason, I thought that it was a young Dennis Quaid. 

The lack of budgy smugglers confused me too.

[AnnEggBlandHer?]

I went to one service at Hillsong NYC (don’t live there but visiting) and it happened to be a day when they were showing recorded sermons from some international conference. It is strange to be watching a screen at church. Otherwise...I liked the music and seeing so many young people, but it did feel very showy and that makes it seem fake. I don’t know quite what it was that made me feel a little off. 

For background info, I attended a very large nondenominational Christian Church for years, held in a movie theater, all modern music but rotated through a few bands (including the young Hillsong cover band group who were admittedly my favorites). They stressed diversity, inclusion, improving the community, supporting one another...it is an amazing place and I miss it since moving away. I haven’t found a new church yet because I just don’t think I’ll find something that can live up to my expectations now! 

[adidas]

Hillsong follows prosperity doctrine - the belief that God wants everyone to be heathy and wealthy. So if you are sick or living in poverty ... you don't have enough faith. Or you haven't donated enough money yet. 

[ophelia]

That is such a sick and twisted belief system and has nothing to do with the gospel or being a Christian IMHO.

[L1o2u3]

Reminds me of another youth outreach event (supposed to be non-denominational and ecumenical) where they had multiple bands and after each band, they asked for donations. From an audience between 13-25. Once, a band member even said that he doesn't want to hear a sound when the money is thrown into the donation basket. Which meant "no coins, only big money, please" (The smallest Euro bill is 5€, about $6). Asking teenagers to donate all their pocket money, imho, is disgusting. 

Of course, the event wouldn't have been complete without an ultra-emotional altar call and "the devil is for real and only Jesus can protect you!" and selling merchandise and records. 

[CorruptionInc.]

Radical Hillsong is a huge thing where I live in Australia. The ones I know are of the belief that LGBTQIA+ people should be put to death and / or don't deserve rights.

I am definitely NOT saying that all Hillsong members or Christians feel this way, I just happen to know some complete idiots.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

Did we learn where Joe and Kendra will live??