Erin and Chad Paine 2: The higher the hair...

[JordynDarby5]

I'm not surprised by the news either. I'm more on the 'I'll believe it when I see it' when it comes to any of the fundie couples. All three Bates couples had their first child very quick after marriage, Erin was only delayed do to her miscarriages (which had to be hard), had it not been for that she would have delivered around the same time as Whitney did. All three couples had their second child very quickly too. I know a lot of couples in the normal world have kids close together but they weren't raised to believe they had to have as many kids as God wanted them to had. Fundie kids were. I haven't seen anything to make me think they've changed from that. I'm happy for Erin and Chad and I hope she has a smooth pregnancy and everything goes well. I was surprised by the name Everly only because I thought they'd only pick popular names like Carson and Brooklyn, I didn't know if Everly was as popular as those two names but a quick look at a couple baby name websites tells me it is. Its cute. I do hope Michael is the next to have a baby. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

Since Whitney didn't grow up fundie I really don't expect her to never use birth control or pop out 12+ kids. She wanted Zachary so she played the part in order to please his parents. She's now bsck to wearing fairly mainstream clothing most of the time. She's working part time outside of the house. These fundies know there's a difference between a girl who grew up fundie and a girl who didn't. I assume they will have a larger than average family and may attempt to homeschool but they aren't going to follow the exact same path as Erin and Chad. 

[Feministe9000]

37 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Since Whitney didn't grow up fundie I really don't expect her to never use birth control or pop out 12+ kids. She wanted Zachary so she played the part in order to please his parents. She's now bsck to wearing fairly mainstream clothing most of the time. She's working part time outside of the house. These fundies know there's a difference between a girl who grew up fundie and a girl who didn't. I assume they will have a larger than average family and may attempt to homeschool but they aren't going to follow the exact same path as Erin and Chad. 

Well said!
I imagine there were no illusions to what may happen down the road when Zach met Whitney, no matter how eager to conform and please as she was for the first few years.
Finally, now the honeymoon period is over, and the couples are starting to make more decisions, such as a new house for a growing family, both parents working and having jobs outside the home, etc., etc., that cookie cutter lifestyle doesn't seem as appealing probably.....at least not Whitney. And I truly believe she is much much MUCH sharper and smarter than she lets on, and i'm sure this was always the plan. Maybe Alyssa too.
I'm looking forward to seeing where this all goes, the next few years will be the biggest indicators of their true direction.

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

Whitney was also very young when she met Zach and she probably wasn't even sure what she wanted in family life. I think she enjoys nice clothing, a nice body, alone time with her husband, working outside the home, and being able to focus her energy on her two kids. She must see with an outsider's perspective that she can live a happy family life without having 19 children and being a SAHM homeschooler. But Erin doesn't know much different. And she seems to have loved her childhood. So she's still chugging away at the koolaid along with Chad. 

[VelociRapture]

I think it’s simply too early to tell with any of the couples. I agree that ZachNey may have the best chances - however, we’ve seen before how new converts can become absolute zealots to the cause. I’d just caution anyone from jumping to any absolute conclusions quite yet. 

I will say, I do hope you’re both right and that Whitney helps lead her family away from such strict fundamentalism. I highly doubt they’ll ever leave entirely or abandon their attempts to elect politicians who would implement Biblical Law or anything. But if she doesn’t end up a brood mare and their kids are offered better educational opportunities then I guess I’ll call it a bit of a win.

ETA: And to add, I don’t think there’s any solid evidence any of them are using birth control right now. I won’t believe they’re preventing unless they come out and say it (which they are absolutely under no obligation to do. That’s a private decision between spouses and no one else needs to know unless they choose to share.)

[JermajestyDuggar]

From what I've seen of zealots, if she isn't knee deep in fundie land already, I very much doubt she will. Zealots often clamp onto it and go balls deep in order to "fix" something. I do not know her so I can't say for sure but it seems her family life has been "fixed." She's reunited with her parents. Of course something horrible could happen in he future that could push her into a true fundie zealot. But if their lives stay stable then I will guess she's not going to become more fundie but less fundie over time. 

[singsingsing]

100% agree that converts are often much more zealous than those born into the system, but that doesn't seem to be the case for Whitney. She seems to be becoming less zealous, if anything. Hopefully that trend will continue.

[Seculardaisy]

I feel like this pregnancy announcement explains Chad's recent blog post. When I read it I was expecting some sort of announcement and it didn't really lead anywhere. I suppose he was just reflecting on life now that there's a new baby on the way.

This isn't the first time I've heard the name Everly. I coached toddler gymnastics and stumbled upon a few little ones with that name at the gym. It's also Channing Tatum's daughter's name. It's not my personal style but I do think it's a cute name, almost poetic sounding. It suits Erin's sugary sweet persona.

[HarleyQuinn]

If Erin and Chad were trying to practice natural family planning they really suck at it. I got the impression Brooklyn was a huge surprise for them. (Well ,as much as a no protection sex baby can be)

I like the name Everly, but Hope with Paine sounds pretty bad. Ever do I Hope for Pain!  

Either way, I hope it's an easy pregnancy and she doesn't have a meltdown with three under three.

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

23 minutes ago, HarleyQuinn said:

Either way, I hope it's an easy pregnancy and she doesn't have a meltdown with three under three.

 Believe Carson would be a couple months away from 3 when the baby is born so maybe she could get him potty trained by then. No one wants three in diapers. She can fly Michael down for a week to potty train him. You know since she trained her younger siblings instead of Kelly....

[Melissa1977]

6 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

 Believe Carson would be a couple months away from 3 when the baby is born so maybe she could get him potty trained by then. No one wants three in diapers. She can fly Michael down for a week to potty train him. You know since she trained her younger siblings instead of Kelly....

It reminds me when Kelly explained that for a very very long time, they had always 3 kids in diapers: a newborn, a 1 year old and a 2 years old.

So, even if Michael and Erin started helping young, Kelly was changing thousands of diapers and potty training for years. I would have become insane, in my opinion potty training is the worst thing about having toddlers.

[Timetraveler]

One of the reasons for announcing a pregnancy maybe a bit earlier than you'd like (not saying this is the case for E+C) must be to prevent your 10048873 sisters from using 'your' baby name when they will become pregnant a month or two after you.

[ophelia]

5 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

It reminds me when Kelly explained that for a very very long time, they had always 3 kids in diapers: a newborn, a 1 year old and a 2 years old.

So, even if Michael and Erin started helping young, Kelly was changing thousands of diapers and potty training for years. I would have become insane, in my opinion potty training is the worst thing about having toddlers.

But didn't she choose this lifestyle? Then she should have put up with the consequences, even if it means to deal with 3 kids in diapers and potty train at least one kid a year. This should have been her job as a mother. But instead she forced it on her older daughters once they were old enough.

[Bazinga]

I think the real test for Whitney will be once the Bates are out of the spotlight (whenever that is). She is eating up her fame with a giant spoon. Girl looks great (won't deny that), but she also has the money and means to keep up with appearances. If the TV show was gone, and the Bates were a faded memory, and all she had was the Bate's family to hold on to....what would she do? Right now she has lots of fans, and new found friends. I think this has given her a GIANT confidence boost. If she were not famous, and all she did was hangout at the Bate's compound, struggling to make ends meat...what would the outcome be then? Personally I think she would be clinging on to the Bates and their ideals as a way to stay sane and keep her head above water.

This TV has actually been the turning point for all of the Bates family. I remember (very clearly) their early days in hand-sewn dresses, as well as their house before it was remodeled. The Bates used to have before and after pictures of their remodel of their house waaaaay back when. Sadly, even WayBack Machine doesn't have them, because they were gold and a HUGE indicator of how some of there fundies live. It's easy now for them to spout their ideals, because they all live nicely and comfortably, in large homes. Their children wear fashionable, brand name clothing. Their living situation is good (meaning square foot per person in the home). These guys are smart. They know how to market themselves as being more mainstream and appealing. However, I think this is backfiring on Gil and Kelly, as some of the kids are wavering more off of the path (probably something that would not have happened if they remained out of the public eye----because they wouldn't have to hide their crazy from the public. They could be hardcore with their kids 24/7). I still stand firm that the reason Bobby is moving to Tori (instead of the other way around), is so that G and K can help make sure that Tori doesn't pull an Alyssa on them. But now with Whitney's shenanigans, who knows.

[RosyDaisy]

I don't understand why anyone is 'upset' about the 2nd generation Bates kids announcing pregnancies in the first place.

It's because another child is going to be raised in this evil cult. No child deserves that.

[AtlanticTug]

I really don't like the name, but I didn't like Brooklyn either. Their choice, not mine.

I see a LOT of things written about Erin's blood clotting disorder, most of it wrong and uninformed. Do we even know which clotting disorder she has? I have a genetic clotting disorder as well which has to be treated during pregnancy (and I had 2 losses before it was discovered and 4 after it was discovered). The truth is it doesn't really make your pregnancy that much more high risk and is fairly easily managed. She's likely taking low dose aspiring + injectable low molecular weight heparin daily (like Fragmin or Lovenox) which is very expensive without insurance but manageable with coverage. She'd routinely run a CBC (complete blood count) to make sure her platelet levels are okay. Low platelet levels (<100) are problematic insofar that you can't be administered an epidural/spinal because of the risk of a brain bleed. Meaning if you have a planned or emergency c-section, you're going to be stuck with a general which sucks. But even if your platelet levels are that low in the weeks before birth there are a number of ways that haematology can deal with it, from steroids to platelet transfusions to IVIg treatment (crazy $$$) to artificially inflate your counts just for birth. They will/should go back to normal after birth in any event. I have never, ever heard of anyone with a clotting disorder be advised to stop having children or space them out more or anything like that.

[Hisey]

17 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

From what I've seen of zealots, if she isn't knee deep in fundie land already, I very much doubt she will. Zealots often clamp onto it and go balls deep in order to "fix" something. I do not know her so I can't say for sure but it seems her family life has been "fixed." She's reunited with her parents. Of course something horrible could happen in he future that could push her into a true fundie zealot. But if their lives stay stable then I will guess she's not going to become more fundie but less fundie over time. 

Being reunited with her biological parents doesn't mean everything is fixed. A million things could still be wrong. She could be tolerating some dysfunctional behaviors in her birth family (like alcoholism) for the sake of the relationship. She could have unresolved feelings of anger that she is not sharing with them (or that they do not want to hear). Perhaps Whitney is being scapegoated. Perhaps there is favoritism towards a sibling or step-sibling. Her adoptive family could be worried/unhappy/upset about her reunification. Where there are people and relationships, there can be dysfunction and problems. I hope it's fixed, but I couldn't say for sure.

[VelociRapture]

45 minutes ago, AtlanticTug said:

I really don't like the name, but I didn't like Brooklyn either. Their choice, not mine.

I see a LOT of things written about Erin's blood clotting disorder, most of it wrong and uninformed. Do we even know which clotting disorder she has? I have a genetic clotting disorder as well which has to be treated during pregnancy (and I had 2 losses before it was discovered and 4 after it was discovered). The truth is it doesn't really make your pregnancy that much more high risk and is fairly easily managed. She's likely taking low dose aspiring + injectable low molecular weight heparin daily (like Fragmin or Lovenox) which is very expensive without insurance but manageable with coverage. She'd routinely run a CBC (complete blood count) to make sure her platelet levels are okay. Low platelet levels (<100) are problematic insofar that you can't be administered an epidural/spinal because of the risk of a brain bleed. Meaning if you have a planned or emergency c-section, you're going to be stuck with a general which sucks. But even if your platelet levels are that low in the weeks before birth there are a number of ways that haematology can deal with it, from steroids to platelet transfusions to IVIg treatment (crazy $$$) to artificially inflate your counts just for birth. They will/should go back to normal after birth in any event. I have never, ever heard of anyone with a clotting disorder be advised to stop having children or space them out more or anything like that.

I think she has PAI - Plasminogen Activator Inhibitor - as well as a folic acid deficiency. That was what I saw on Ok Magazine (which is of course always completely trustworthy in every way possible. )

I tried correcting some of the misinformation about her disorder. However, I don’t have it myself and I have to rely on what I remember other posters saying and online research. So any information you are able and willing to share would likely be far more helpful and accurate. 

The only reason I would hope for bigger spacing for anyone is simply to give the body time to heal. But at the end of the day, it’s up to each individual couple to make the choice best for them. I hope this pregnancy goes well and that she has a ridiculously easy birth as well.

[AtlanticTug]

Yeah, generally they would all do best to space out the kids more. Multiple studies have looked at "ideal" spacing and it appears to be 27 months, which is close to what Anna Duggar is getting but much longer than many other fundies.

Erin's treatment will depend on her doctor - there is still variation here as thrombophilias are tied to infertility/loss but this whole area is best described as a bit of witchcraft and so you have variation between clinics and doctors themselves. I would say that the vast majority will prescribe low dose (81mg) aspirin + Fragmin/Lovenox/Clexane (different brands of the same low molecular weight heparin) to be administered up until birth. Women with planned c-sections will be taken off a few days in advance. MTHFR will require her to take a different prenatal vitamin/supplement, since she'd need folate and not folic acid. Some Doctors will skip this and give Metformin + B12 instead. Really aggressive ones may add steroids in the first 10 weeks of pregnancy, but this seems to be most common in IVF patients. It sounds like a lot but it's really not that bad, leaves you with a horribly bruised belly and the injections get harder and harder closer to delivery if you are a thin person whose belly is stretched and not much fat under the skin. She may need to continue with the heparin for 6 weeks post-delivery as well, again this depends on the particular clotting factor.

[JermajestyDuggar]

57 minutes ago, Hisey said:

Being reunited with her biological parents doesn't mean everything is fixed. A million things could still be wrong. She could be tolerating some dysfunctional behaviors in her birth family (like alcoholism) for the sake of the relationship. She could have unresolved feelings of anger that she is not sharing with them (or that they do not want to hear). Perhaps Whitney is being scapegoated. Perhaps there is favoritism towards a sibling or step-sibling. Her adoptive family could be worried/unhappy/upset about her reunification. Where there are people and relationships, there can be dysfunction and problems. I hope it's fixed, but I couldn't say for sure.

Oh I know. That's why I said I don't know Whitney. I really have no clue about her family  functioning but I do know that many religious convert zealots are looking for a way to "fix" something. 

[ColeJo]

I don't see the issue as long as she is getting regular prenatal check-ups probably more often than others because of her condition. We have to give the Bates women credit for seeking legit prenatal care (unlike the individuals with their name starting with D and ending with R). The spacing is not ideal but at least she is not like Kelly. She had the spacing 6 months or less.

The spacing between my sister and I was about 18 months. For spacing, I am counting the time between the last birth and next conception, not birth to birth.

[JermajestyDuggar]

8 minutes ago, ColeJo said:

The spacing between my sister and I was about 18 months. For spacing, I am counting the time between the last birth and next conception, not birth to birth.

That's the recommended spacing. Which means 27 months between births. My kids are 27 months apart. 

[Carm_88]

I hope that all these families eventually move away from fundamentalism, it's just unlikely. It's nice to see that Zach and Whitney seem to be enjoying their time with their two kids; I am still expecting an announcement. It's just the way I'm wired with fundies now. We shall see of course. I hope that more of these second generation kids step away. 

[singsingsing]

41 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

That's the recommended spacing. Which means 27 months between births. My kids are 27 months apart. 

I just realized that my sister and I are also 27 months apart. Now I'll have to ask my mum if she did that on purpose.

[VelociRapture]

6 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

That's the recommended spacing. Which means 27 months between births. My kids are 27 months apart. 

Husband and I are definitely aiming for spacing around this length, though probably a bit longer. My OBGYN recommended waiting to conceive again until my daughter is 18 months when I was switched back to my regular birth control three months postpartum in March - she says it should hopefully cut down on my risk of having a second miscarriage or a second premature birth. 

@AtlanticTugThank you! I did my best, but having someone explain who actually knows firsthand about this sort of condition is definitely preferable. 

I do remember Kelly saying at one point that Erin had injections each day - I think it may have been twice a day and I want to say she was on Lovenox, but I’m not sure. She also said her stomach was horribly bruised from the injections. I felt pretty bad for her having to go through all that.