Orange Order magazine tells members to stop using RIP

[BlessaYourHeart]

The Orange Order's Magazine The Orange Standard  recently published their 500th Reformation Anniversary edition including an article telling members to stop using the phrase RIP because it is unProtestant. It seems that it was an ex Presbyterian Moderator (still a Presbyterian minister) who penned the article but I could be wrong as news coverage has been all over the place. 

More here: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/orange-order-rip-stop-say-un-prostestant-northern-ireland-loyalists-unbiblical-dup-unionists-a7859766.html

 

As far as I can tell this is a Presbyterian minister criticising the article/comments made: http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/dup-slams-presbyterians-claim-orange-order-is-sectarian-35964261.html

 

and another Presbyterian ministers view. I have do disclose that I dislike the Rev. Latimer, he's a very self-centred, arrogant, ignorant and less than empathetic man in my experience. He made comments at Martin McGuinness' funeral saying that everyone should be grateful to McGuiness for peace, it angered many families who had lost  loved ones in IRA attacks when  McGuiness was head of IRA  in Londonderry. 

http://www.irishnews.com/news/2017/07/26/news/presbyterian-minister-in-careful-words-call-following-orange-order-sectarian-row-1092881/

[EmainMacha]

What do you think of this @BlessaYourHeart? I understand from the theological viewpoint not using RIP makes sense but not sure if all Protestant churches would agree? For example would some Church of Ireland congregations use RIP?

I think people use it because it's an easy term of condolence to use. People are generally uncomfortable speaking around death but there is the feeling that we should say something.

[BlessaYourHeart]

10 hours ago, EmainMacha said:

What do you think of this @BlessaYourHeart? I understand from the theological viewpoint not using RIP makes sense but not sure if all Protestant churches would agree? For example would some Church of Ireland congregations use RIP?

I think people use it because it's an easy term of condolence to use. People are generally uncomfortable speaking around death but there is the feeling that we should say something.

Speaking from a COI perspective, the minister would rarely use it but the congregation would. We say  it as more of a sentiment rather than a prayer. Just like saying 'get well soon' or 'good luck'. To me it's just wishing someone well in the afterlife. 

My presbyterian boyfriend however will not use it . 

I don't see the point in what this guy has said because RIP has become so widely spread as a sentiment that even atheists etc use it. It's easy to say in a tough situation when little words are possible. 

[nomoxian]

I'm an agnostic-atheist but I still say RIP sometimes. It's partially social conditioning, partially because the person is at peace from what made them die (whether that means because they don't exist at all, or are in the afterlife or reincarniated or whatever) and partially because what can you really say or do in response to finding out someone has died? 

When people die as a result of something political or through a heroic action, I do sometimes make a point of saying Rest In Power. That saying seems to be common in some 'leftist' communities.

[Palimpsest]

I'm an atheist (bought up as various flavors of Protestant) and I say RIP (rest in peace) frequently.  It is also commonly said in the CofE in my experience.  I usually use it to imply that a person's suffering is over and I wish them peace but people can draw their own conclusions.

If my saying RIP offends certain segments of Evangelical and Fundamentalist Protestantism, so be it.  It is their choice whether they use the term themselves.

It strikes me that Wallace Thompson was being unnecessarily provocative.  As was the article in the Orange Standard.  I also think that Rev, Latimer was, as usual, trying to pour oil on very troubled waters.

[Kak]

In N Ireland RIP is just one of those things though. The Irish News (Catholic newspaper, printed in Belfast) death notices always include RIP, in the Newsletter (Protestant, Belfast also) RIP isn't used. A Catholic graveyard will have RIP on the headstones, a Presbyterian one won't. I'm not sure about other flavours of Protestanism. 

I'm sceptical that any member of the Orange Order would use RIP anyway, unless COI does use it. Are there many  COIers in the OO?

[BlessaYourHeart]

5 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

 

It strikes me that Wallace Thompson was being unnecessarily provocative.  As was the article in the Orange Standard.  I also think that Rev, Latimer was, as usual, trying to pour oil on very troubled waters.

May I ask how you know of the right old Rev. Latimer? 

Very few people seem to like him these days lol. He spoke at my schools prize giving once, literally 30+ minutes all about him and what he thinks, not once congratulating pupils on winning awards 

3 hours ago, Kak said:

In N Ireland RIP is just one of those things though. The Irish News (Catholic newspaper, printed in Belfast) death notices always include RIP, in the Newsletter (Protestant, Belfast also) RIP isn't used. A Catholic graveyard will have RIP on the headstones, a Presbyterian one won't. I'm not sure about other flavours of Protestanism. 

I'm sceptical that any member of the Orange Order would use RIP anyway, unless COI does use it. Are there many  COIers in the OO?

I've seen Methodist, Church of Ireland, Presbyterian and Baptist use RIP quite freely. As I said before though, unlike in Catholicism, it isn't used as a prayer, more a sentiment to wish peace in the after life so it's unlikely to be seen on Grave stones as there would likely be other prayers/verses on them. 

OO is made up of all strands of Protestants, mainly the four I listed above but also various Pentecostal, Free/Independant/reformed variants of Churches. However, the Presbyterians in it seem to scream the loudest. 

[Palimpsest]

27 minutes ago, BlessaYourHeart said:

May I ask how you know of the right old Rev. Latimer? 

I'm old. He did some good, but controversial, work in his time.  Including forging a bond with Martin McGuinness, which was extremely unpopular with the die-hards on both sides but did help to reach a level of - shall we say understanding or perhaps uneasy equilibrium.  And a cessation of bloody murder.  On both sides.

 I do understand that people still find him controversial today, but it seems that they mostly are the ones who want to re-fight and re-ignite old battles.  I don't think younger people understand how destructive that all was. 

30 minutes ago, BlessaYourHeart said:

He spoke at my schools prize giving once, literally 30+ minutes all about him and what he thinks, not once congratulating pupils on winning awards 

You break my heart.  He really should have told all you teenagers how very clever you were!  

I expect he is an arrogant old fart still resting on his laurels and you were right to be annoyed.  But perhaps he was trying to use his experiences to ask you young folk to go forward in life positively.  I wasn't there and don't know.  

I hold no brief for Latimer these days.  Why was he invited to give a speech at your prize giving anyway?  I do hope he, at least, gave a better speech than the Tangerine Terror at the Boy Scout Jamboree!

 

[BlessaYourHeart]

5 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

I'm old. He did some good, but controversial, work in his time.  Including forging a bond with Martin McGuinness, which was extremely unpopular with the die-hards on both sides but did help to reach a level of - shall we say understanding or perhaps uneasy equilibrium.  And a cessation of bloody murder.  On both sides.

 I do understand that people still find him controversial today, but it seems that they mostly are the ones who want to re-fight and re-ignite old battles.  I don't think younger people understand how destructive that all was. 

You break my heart.  He really should have told all you teenagers how very clever you were!  

I expect he is an arrogant old fart still resting on his laurels and you were right to be annoyed.  But perhaps he was trying to use his experiences to ask you young folk to go forward in life positively.  I wasn't there and don't know.  

I hold no brief for Latimer these days.  Why was he invited to give a speech at your prize giving anyway?  I do hope he, at least, gave a better speech than the Tangerine Terror at the Boy Scout Jamboree!

 

He was a brave man at the time to do what he did; as a presbyterian minister going into a situation and making such a friendship and really going out on a limb must have took a hell of a lot of courage. I don't doubt that for a second. 

However, sometimes when he speaks I feel like he doesn't live in the reality that the rest of us do. NI has come so far, Londonderry as a city has come so far but there is still immense hurt and wounds on both sides and I feel like sometimes he forgets that and comes across as though he believes we're living in a peaceful utopia. 

The school just invited different speakers every year as special guests to make the I guess key note speech. He talked about his wife and family, experience growing up and how much he has achieved in life. If there was a message it was lost on most of us lol. What actually bugged some people was he failed to mention that it was an integrated school and how important that was for the future as we were being educated together in a way that wasn't possible 20 years previously. 

My personal beef with him is that any time I've talked to him he always came across as very condescending, almost holier than thou. I done quite a bit of work in different churches and he was the one minister that never remembered my name (or anyone else's) despite knowing me almost 15 years.

Whereas the Dean Morton in St Columbs spoke to everyone from the youngest to oldest on the same level as himself and made a real effort to get to know people.  It was the same with the Rev Buick (Presbyterian) and Father Canny (Catholic) 

[Ais]

@BlessaYourHeart I can't start to explain how disconcerting it is to read the names of people and places in my hometown on here lol

[Glasgowghirl]

I'm not a supporter of the Orange Order but I know a lot of members of it and have seen many of them posting RIP messages online to loved ones and other members regardless of the origin of the expression it's a commonly used one and I don't see too many members changing that. 

[BlessaYourHeart]

4 hours ago, Ais said:

@BlessaYourHeart I can't start to explain how disconcerting it is to read the names of people and places in my hometown on here lol

I'm guessing we share a hometown then