Carlin and Evan 1: Front Hugging Before Courting

[Lurky]

7 minutes ago, veron1que said:

Kelly has said that as a family they have shifted towards "dating with a purpose" as opposed to the very strict courtship model that failed with Zach. They seem to now believe that not every interest is meant to be, but also dating is about find your spouse not casual fun. 

But do they ever get to go on dates with someone they're not sure they're going to marry?  Or do they just not show that (like when Jinger and Joy were spending a lot of time at the Bateses?) - and how does that tie in with Nate and Ashley S?  Could Carlin decide that actually, she's not sure, at this point, and get away with her reputation intact?

Genuinely confused how Courting and Dating With A Purpose differ, except they're allowed more physical contact in DWAP, but still seem to be chaperoned etc etc (after all, someone has to be there to take all the photos)

[veron1que]

3 hours ago, Lurky said:

But do they ever get to go on dates with someone they're not sure they're going to marry?  Or do they just not show that (like when Jinger and Joy were spending a lot of time at the Bateses?) - and how does that tie in with Nate and Ashley S?  Could Carlin decide that actually, she's not sure, at this point, and get away with her reputation intact?

Genuinely confused how Courting and Dating With A Purpose differ, except they're allowed more physical contact in DWAP, but still seem to be chaperoned etc etc (after all, someone has to be there to take all the photos)

You are not the only one, Lol! 

From my years following the Bates the huge difference is that there is a dating stage pre-courtship. Contrast this with the Duggars who have a "getting to know  them" or "talking" before stage. 

In the Duggar model, you are interesting in another person (or they've petitioned Jim Bob), you interact with them in group settings, and then if approval is a go you start a courtship. Now you can go on dates (with a chaperone), have private phone calls, and evaluate each other for marriage. Engagement and marriage follow.

In the Bates world. Your special friend can ask you out and you start dating with a purpose (DWAP). You go on dates, you are bf/gf, you can say you love each other. You can enjoy a chaste dating relationship without an imminent wedding. And you are determining whether this person is for you long term. You are stuck here till Gil and Kelly think are mature enough for marriage. Then you court which is essentially pre-engagement with some arbitrary rules that distinguish it from engagement. 

So yes, Carlson could walk away from the DWAP stage and still have her reputation. At this point the Bates have really thrown away the "courtship model." I think they still use the term because of their position in fundie communities. IMO, Zach had a failed courtship. They had very strict supervision and barely knew each other. To me, Nathan broke up with a gf. Did he want it to end in marriage, yes. But ultiamately it was DWAP that ended in a break up.

Final note, one of the Bates daughters, I believe Alyssa, considered skipping the courtship period all together. Her and John dated with a purpose and decided they wanted to get married. She recognized the courtship stage for what it is, unnecessary fundie nonsense so that they can feel more godly and pure than others.  I think they courted for all of 2 months.

[JordynDarby5]

Trace and Campbell also seemed to fizzle out or never made it pass the special friends stage. She was in one episode where they all went skiing.  Tori and I think Carlin invited their special friends at the time too?  But never mentioned again. 

[Lurky]

So they're still chaperoned, and limited on what physical contact they can have (publicly at least?).

I'm glad they can be "dating" for a long time (relative to the Duggar model) and I'm super-glad if their teenaged daughters can go from being all huggy and "I love you" etc to splitting up, because the alternative - that they realise they're not for each other after all, but are stuck together, is grim.

I do think it's interesting that they're all so in our faces with their teenaged daughters' relationships, but we've only really seen Nathan and Ashley since Zach out of the sons.  I think that's great for the lads!   I can't imagine what it would be like to be in the "get to know" or early dating stage, with a camera crew following me around.

[Jaeniduggar]

Trace and Campbell also seemed to fizzle out or never made it pass the special friends stage. She was in one episode where they all went skiing.  Tori and I think Carlin invited their special friends at the time too?  But never mentioned again. 

Campbell has a boyfriend (check her latest Instagram) and Trace said in a Facebook live video that they were only friends nothing else. He said it straight forward, I don't think something was going on.

 

 

 

[VelociRapture]

On 11/5/2017 at 5:18 PM, veron1que said:

You are not the only one, Lol! 

From my years following the Bates the huge difference is that there is a dating stage pre-courtship. Contrast this with the Duggars who have a "getting to know  them" or "talking" before stage. 

In the Duggar model, you are interesting in another person (or they've petitioned Jim Bob), you interact with them in group settings, and then if approval is a go you start a courtship. Now you can go on dates (with a chaperone), have private phone calls, and evaluate each other for marriage. Engagement and marriage follow.

In the Bates world. Your special friend can ask you out and you start dating with a purpose (DWAP). You go on dates, you are bf/gf, you can say you love each other. You can enjoy a chaste dating relationship without an imminent wedding. And you are determining whether this person is for you long term. You are stuck here till Gil and Kelly think are mature enough for marriage. Then you court which is essentially pre-engagement with some arbitrary rules that distinguish it from engagement. 

So yes, Carlson could walk away from the DWAP stage and still have her reputation. At this point the Bates have really thrown away the "courtship model." I think they still use the term because of their position in fundie communities. IMO, Zach had a failed courtship. They had very strict supervision and barely knew each other. To me, Nathan broke up with a gf. Did he want it to end in marriage, yes. But ultiamately it was DWAP that ended in a break up.

Final note, one of the Bates daughters, I believe Alyssa, considered skipping the courtship period all together. Her and John dated with a purpose and decided they wanted to get married. She recognized the courtship stage for what it is, unnecessary fundie nonsense so that they can feel more godly and pure than others.  I think they courted for all of 2 months.

The families actually follow pretty similar standards. Any couple is always kept in eyesight in both families, though chaperones aren’t always right up in their personal space. Both families allow varying degrees of private conversations too - Jessa has mentioned she and Ben were allowed to text or speak on the phone privately when they were courting and the Keilens were able to walk a short distance in front of her parents in an episode where they discussed their relationship goals with her parents. Both families claim to allow their kids to choose physical standards, but they can only choose within the parameters set by the parents. For instance, Zach and Whit felt compelled to tell his parents they kissed prior to marriage and then apologized for it... which they wouldn’t have done if they were allowed to choose that level of affection for themselves. Then you have JinJer, who made her parents look super uncomfortable with the amount of affectionate cuddling they did. 

I don’t see a difference between the Bateses’ DWAP or the Duggar’s Getting to Know You (GTKY) periods. The Bateses basically just gave a new name to the same concept. The only difference is in how public they are about the relationships from early stages - the Duggars prefer to keep things more private until the relationship is more serious. The Bateses are just better at looking more normal than the Duggars are to be honest.

I have absolutely zero doubts that anyone interested in a Bates daughter needs approval to get to know her during the DWAP stage, just like with the Duggars. I also really doubt that Carlin would get away with a fully intact reputation if they broke up. She and Evan haven’t done anything wrong by being openly affectionate (it’d be cute if they weren’t so obnoxiously preachy), but I get the feeling fundies may not see it the same way. 

And yes, it was Alyssa. They began courting in early November and were engaged in January. I believe they met when she volunteered on his father’s congressional campaign in 2012. They spent a long time getting to know one another prior to courting - John and Alyssa accompanied her parents in chaperoning Cherin’s late Valentine’s date back in March 2013. They likely got together prior to that, so it’s possible they were together close to a total of 1.5 years before marrying.

[elliha]

On 11/8/2017 at 10:18 PM, VelociRapture said:

Both families claim to allow their kids to choose physical standards, but they can only choose within the parameters set by the parents. For instance, Zach and Whit felt compelled to tell his parents they kissed prior to marriage and then apologized for it... which they wouldn’t have done if they were allowed to choose that level of affection for themselves. Then you have JinJer, who made her parents look super uncomfortable with the amount of affectionate cuddling they did. 

I am not 100% sure if this is true. As I have understood it they can decide the rules but not change the rules and this is what was the problem here mostly. I doubt the parents would be accepting of sex before marriage but I think that kissing is enough of a grey zone that they could technically allow it but probably with the side note that they didn't approve of this choice and this is why it hasn't been chosen by anyone (yet). I think that we will see kissing courtships even officially from the middle and younger kids if the family doesn't make a sudden U-turn against being more fundie. I think that the Bates are the type to hide things they don't want the viewers to know, both things that make them look more fundie AND things that might make the look too liberal. They have chosen a level of public appearance they are comfortable with at present and this is what they show and nothing else unless they would be forced to by scandal. I do think that Alyssa and John kissed before they were married too, they have just not chosen to talk about it and probably they have never officially told their parents either. I have no proof, just a feeling. 

[BeccaGrim]

It has always seemed like BS to me.  They don't set their physical standards. They could conceivably tell their families "we intend to have sex before marriage." They're just parroting back what they know their parents want to hear. 

[SilverBeach]

On 9/23/2017 at 11:29 AM, singsingsing said:

I get that, but I think most (non-fundie) people in this day and age follow the tradition just for the sake of tradition. It's just one of those antiquated social forms that some people still participate in because it makes them feel good for whatever reason. It seems distasteful to me, but I'm not under the illusion that most people who do it take it literally these days, and I'm not in the business of policing the decisions of other independent adults when they have no effect on anyone but themselves. The difference between fundies and other people who might have conservative or traditional views is that fundies actively try to force the rest of the world to abide by their standards. Some woman I don't know requesting that her boyfriend ask her parents for permission to marry her has no effect on me whatsoever.

I definitely never said or implied in any way that discussing (and criticizing) this subject shouldn't be allowed, though. It's totally valid. I think it's likely to piss a bunch of people off, because people understandably get offended by their actions being critiqued or misconstrued, but people can choose whether they want to discuss it or not

Asking questions is not the same as policing anybody's decision. I don't think comments here should be policed either.

Nothing on this board has any effect on me personally. I didn't see a bunch of people getting pissed off here. Comments get misconstrued here all the time.

I don't really care about fundies being offended, but do care about other FJ members, unless they are being a racist asshole or something.

Like I have said many times before on here, to each her own. No one's opinion is more valid than anyone elses. 

[llg1234]

Evan's family are apparently the types to start celebrating Christmas in November.  I'm guessing there's no rum in that egg nog.

 

[jacduggar]

14 hours ago, elliha said:

I am not 100% sure if this is true. As I have understood it they can decide the rules but not change the rules and this is what was the problem here mostly. I doubt the parents would be accepting of sex before marriage but I think that kissing is enough of a grey zone that they could technically allow it but probably with the side note that they didn't approve of this choice and this is why it hasn't been chosen by anyone (yet). I think that we will see kissing courtships even officially from the middle and younger kids if the family doesn't make a sudden U-turn against being more fundie. I think that the Bates are the type to hide things they don't want the viewers to know, both things that make them look more fundie AND things that might make the look too liberal. They have chosen a level of public appearance they are comfortable with at present and this is what they show and nothing else unless they would be forced to by scandal. I do think that Alyssa and John kissed before they were married too, they have just not chosen to talk about it and probably they have never officially told their parents either. I have no proof, just a feeling. 

I agree with you. I think John and Alyssa were together a while before they were married, more affectionate with each other, and it shows. Even in the early seasons they never had that fundie newlywed discomfort thing going on that all the other couples seem to have. However, it’s also worth noting that a lot less of their life is filmed than the other couples (Bates and Duggar) so that could all be off camera. Their relationship just seems so natural and normal to me. 

 

I think the huge difference between the Bates and the Duggars is that the Bates kids appear to marry people they actually like and know fairly well. The Duggars getting to know you ordeal is so hands off and awkward, when they do become official and move on to engagement/marriage it’s like watching two young teenagers getting married after their first month in their first real relationship. The Bates kids appear to actually know their spouses (the exception to this is Michael and Brandon IMO.  They always seem uncomfortable and awkward. I can’t tell if it’s the cameras or just them). I think this is because the Bates seem to allow their kids a little more freedom with talking to their BF/GF and don’t require group texts or chaperoned calls, whereas the Duggars require all communication chaperoned until engagement. 

[VBOY9977]

Carlin and Evan posted on their ig stories that they were flying from Nashville  (I’m guessing to sc to papa bill and mama jane’s) and I’m thinking maybe they were alone because his sister posted this pic with his whole family except Evan and Carlin... or maybe they flew out with a Bates sibling??? 

I hope they were alone, I’ve always hated the chaperoning thing

 

ETA: his sister commented they were with Warden  ughh well there goes that 

 

[GracieLou Free Duggar]

19 hours ago, VBOY9977 said:

Carlin and Evan posted on their ig stories that they were flying from Nashville  (I’m guessing to sc to papa bill and mama jane’s) and I’m thinking maybe they were alone because his sister posted this pic with his whole family except Evan and Carlin... or maybe they flew out with a Bates sibling??? 

I hope they were alone, I’ve always hated the chaperoning thing

 

ETA: his sister commented they were with Warden  ughh well there goes that 

 

Is evan the last guy on the right hand side?

[VBOY9977]

1 hour ago, GracieLou Free Duggar said:

Is evan the last guy on the right hand side?

That’s his brother Ethan 

[GracieLou Free Duggar]

5 hours ago, VBOY9977 said:

That’s his brother Ethan 

Cool, thanks for the clarification. It's hard to tell all of these 'special friends' apart some times.

[Seculardaisy]

Carlin posted a live video on instagram today. They were at a church in Nashville with Lawson, Kelly, Evan and his sister, and I think another person or two. She called Evan her boyfriend and Kelly said "This church would be a beautiful place for a wedding." To which Carlin said "Hear that babe? This is good if mom is on board." And Evan's sister jokingly acted like it was too soon to talk engagement/weddings. I suspect they're courting but not yet engaged from that conversation.

[DillyDally]

Some more hilarious facial expressions from Evan:

 

[faraway]

Evan appears a lot younger than he is, this guy probably shouldn't get married any time soon... 

[Feministe9000]

59 minutes ago, faraway said:

Evan appears a lot younger than he is, this guy probably shouldn't get married any time soon... 

Agreed. If you watch that video on mute, it's even better

[Seculardaisy]

The Duggars have arrived in town for Tori’s wedding. 

[Iamtheway]

On 2017-09-24 at 12:12 AM, VelociRapture said:

My dad suggested giving me a puppy with the ring. I'm still a little bitter he didn't go with that idea. (I did get my puppy eventually... but I had to wait over two years. Not cool dude. )

A bit late on this, but I’m thinking your husband wanted the proposal to be the most exciting thing that day.

Asking the dad isn’t tradition in Sweden and the couple traditionally walk down the isle together. Lots of Hollywood movies have changed that up a bit though. 

My dad would probably have said some version of ”ask her” if Mr Way had asked him. He knew he shouldn’t ask though and to be honest I think he was still a bit scared of my dad even though it was five years in to our relationship. The first time they met my dad showed Mr Way the cross bow he built himself and told him it could shoot through a door. 

My dad can seem a bit rough, especially when he is nervous (and he’s not great at English, and this was before Mr Way learned Swedish) but he is really sweet once you know him. And he was just proud of his cross bow, not trying to scare anyone. Mr Way was a 21 year old in a foreign country where he didn’t speak the language though. He was scared. 

[VelociRapture]

On 12/17/2017 at 6:23 PM, Iamtheway said:

A bit late on this, but I’m thinking your husband wanted the proposal to be the most exciting thing that day.

Asking the dad isn’t tradition in Sweden and the couple traditionally walk down the isle together. Lots of Hollywood movies have changed that up a bit though. 

My dad would probably have said some version of ”ask her” if Mr Way had asked him. He knew he shouldn’t ask though and to be honest I think he was still a bit scared of my dad even though it was five years in to our relationship. The first time they met my dad showed Mr Way the cross bow he built himself and told him it could shoot through a door. 

My dad can seem a bit rough, especially when he is nervous (and he’s not great at English, and this was before Mr Way learned Swedish) but he is really sweet once you know him. And he was just proud of his cross bow, not trying to scare anyone. Mr Way was a 21 year old in a foreign country where he didn’t speak the language though. He was scared. 

Lol! Good guess, but no. He wanted to be sure one of us would be home more before we welcomed a dog - my 35+ minute commute and his hectic schedule meant a dog would have been alone 9-10 hours a day, which didn’t seem fair. 

I did get my dog eventually though. She’s crazy, but she adores our baby (a little too much sometimes) and she was worth waiting for. 

[Seculardaisy]

Carlin and Evan enjoy taking food related photos that are the opposite of candid. 

Carlin continues to work her social media brand.

I continue to enjoy calling them Cevan (pronounced like Kevin.)

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

Spoiler

Sorry can’t fix the double spoiler box.

[Kangaroo]

Carlin's photos seem so staged and insincere. Yeah Zoolander poses a lot in photos he posts, but compared to Calton... I don't know. Hers just seems a lot more contrived.

Like he's posing because it's a photo and it's fun, but she's posing because she wants us to see only extreme perfection.

Carlin's annoying me to the point where I think Zoolander could do better.

[ColeJo]

I know we only see the high points of the relationship because that's what they want us to see. Do they even have difficult moments regarding real life issues aside from being apart? I am just too familiar with the uber-happy, "what can possibly go wrong type." I've seen girls after a few months type #Future Mrs. [insert surname of boy toy] and a lot of times, it doesn't end well.

I think that's where Gil and Kelly come in. They bring up issues like they did when Gil said they should hold off on courtship (a bit too late, but whatever). I wonder if they actually talk about serious things without the conversation being facilitated by the parents.