Joy and Austin: Back in Arkansas?

[SapphireSlytherin]

2 minutes ago, ThunderRolls said:

Joy getting jiggy with it so freely in front of others. It doesn't make me want to sew my eyeballs shut - yet.

She reminds me so much of my younger self, when I had a boyfriend and my BFF didn't. I'd do the OTT PDA, too, just to get a "dig" in at her, that my life was so much better than hers. But then, I've been known to be a tad vindictive.

[singsingsing]

I really didn't think their PDA was that bad at all, including the lap-sitting - and I'm not into PDA myself, and definitely not a touchy-feely person. Hmm.

11 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

She reminds me so much of my younger self, when I had a boyfriend and my BFF didn't. I'd do the OTT PDA, too, just to get a "dig" in at her, that my life was so much better than hers. But then, I've been known to be a tad vindictive.

I'm guessing she became your ex-BFF pretty fast, lol. What were you getting back at her for? She must have been pretty nasty to you to inspire than kind of vindictiveness?

[SapphireSlytherin]

42 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I'm guessing she became your ex-BFF pretty fast, lol. What were you getting back at her for?

LOL - we are both only children, so it was tit-for-tat throughout our relationship. When one of us "had a guy" in our life, the other was left on the side of the road for the duration of the relationship. That's how we both rolled, and it was fine with both of us.

We've been friends for more than 40 years now, and we're still super close.

Our dynamic is/was hard for a lot of people to understand. 

[metheglyn]

6 hours ago, HarleyQuinn said:

Someone gif'd all their PDA. I think her sister mom gave her stage 5 clinger tips.

 

http://keepingupwithfundies.tumblr.com/post/163430150171/joy-and-austin-forsyth-pda-ing-all-over-the-place

She may have "let him" lead the first kiss at their wedding because he's the "man" in the relationship...but she's certainly not shy about initiating physical contact and kissing now!

Then again, now they know what they're doing and are less likely to crack their teeth together like they were apparently afraid of doing out of ignorance! 

[devoutjedi]

On the topic of cultural appropriation -- I'm Indian and I do have a problem with people wearing Saris for funsies. My culture is not a costume. It's not something fun for you to put on just because. If you're invited to participate in an event where wearing a sari or kurta/kurti would be appropriate and you're respectful then I'm fine with that but I don't think it's appropriate to take it out of context and just wear it around because it's *different*. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

33 minutes ago, devoutjedi said:

On the topic of cultural appropriation -- I'm Indian and I do have a problem with people wearing Saris for funsies. My culture is not a costume. It's not something fun for you to put on just because. If you're invited to participate in an event where wearing a sari or kurta/kurti would be appropriate and you're respectful then I'm fine with that but I don't think it's appropriate to take it out of context and just wear it around because it's *different*. 

Thank you for this perspective! I love Saris and think they're beautiful!

On another note:  how would this be viewed at a (non-Indian) costume/fancy dress party? I'm thinking of people who show up wearing traditional cowboy attire, a Scottish kilt, a German dirndl,  or a 1960's WASP businessman. At what point does it become "cultural appropriation" rather than emulation/imitation?

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

7 hours ago, bananabread said:

I think it's adorable and awesome that they're so in-love and have natural chemistry. That's not the case with every marriage.

Also future-Mr. Bananabread and I looked like this for the first year of our relationship so you will see absolutely zero judgment from me!

Yeah, I can't say much hubby & I are still like this and we've been married for almost 21 years. We were even worse when we 1st got married.  I'm very demonstrative and touchy feely, after growing up in an emotionally restrictive home where hugs & kisses were more rare than an honest politician. I love yous weren't said and only anger and unhappiness were allowed to be expressed emotionally. Having someone show you physically and demonstratively love is something you crave and quickly become addicted to so you want them nonstop. 

[devoutjedi]

32 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Thank you for this perspective! I love Saris and think they're beautiful!

On another note:  how would this be viewed at a (non-Indian) costume/fancy dress party? I'm thinking of people who show up wearing traditional cowboy attire, a Scottish kilt, a German dirndl,  or a 1960's WASP businessman. At what point does it become "cultural appropriation" rather than emulation/imitation?

That's a really good question -- I'm afraid I don't have a good answer. At the moment, given the current political climate, I really don't think it's okay to use cultural items from a country that we're happy demonize in other circumstances. There's a fundamental power differential that is ripe for exploitation. This power differential is historical (but not static!) and does not exist for all countries/cultures. 

With regards to costume parties, I'll repeat, my general rule is that my culture is not a costume. Bindis, saris, bangles, and mehendi are all important parts of my culture. Taking those things and wearing them to be trendy doesn't sit right with me. But really, the at it's core, the issue is respect. If someone is coming from a place of respect, they're probably okay. If someone is using my culture to improve their status ("look at how cool and different I am"), it's really not okay. 

Let's take two examples. Example one: Male and female couple get dressed up to go to a costume party. Man dresses up as Shahrukh Khan. Woman dresses up like Aishwarya Rai. Because the people are emulating specific actors/costumes and are coming from a place of respect for their work, it's totally fine! Have fun! 

Example two: Man and woman get dressed up to go to a costume party. Man dresses up as Arabian prince. Woman dresses up as exotic Indian princess. Because these "themes" are exoticized caricatures that remove cultural context, I think they're disrespectful. 

More broadly, this is an ongoing conversation that we're having. Some great things have come out of cultural imitation/emulation (food, mostly) so it's not all bad. But integral to the process of adaptation and imitation is respect. 

[Rachel333]

One thing I've noticed is that, speaking very generally, people who are a bit removed from their culture, like the children of immigrants, tend to be a little more sensitive about cultural appropriation, which makes a lot of sense since it could be harder for a lot of them to maintain ties to their culture and they might feel differently than someone who has spent all their life in the country where that culture originates.

[sawasdee]

When travelling alone around India in the late eighties/early nineties, I usually wore shalwar kameez. It was comfortable, modest in a modest culture, and the scarf was useful for hiding behind if men stared too much.

At that time I had never heard of the concept of cultural appropriation. Now I wonder if trying to be appropriate, I was actually being offensive......

 

[devoutjedi]

24 minutes ago, sawasdee said:

When travelling alone around India in the late eighties/early nineties, I usually wore shalwar kameez. It was comfortable, modest in a modest culture, and the scarf was useful for hiding behind if men stared too much.

At that time I had never heard of the concept of cultural appropriation. Now I wonder if trying to be appropriate, I was actually being offensive......

 

In my opinion, you were not. You were wearing clothing that was appropriate for the climate in a way that was respectful of the culture. 

57 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

One thing I've noticed is that, speaking very generally, people who are a bit removed from their culture, like the children of immigrants, tend to be a little more sensitive about cultural appropriation, which makes a lot of sense since it could be harder for a lot of them to maintain ties to their culture and they might feel differently than someone who has spent all their life in the country where that culture originates.

That's probably true. In my experience (born in the states to immigrant parents), I was teased for embracing my  culture as a kid and had to repress it to fit in. The same kids who teased me went on *spiritual adventures* to India in college and came back *enlightened* and with lots of clothes/cultural items they wore to be cool. So I'm a bit sensitive to people taking things out of my culture and using them for their own gain. 

[Rachel333]

10 minutes ago, devoutjedi said:

That's probably true. In my experience (born in the states to immigrant parents), I was teased for embracing my  culture as a kid and had to repress it to fit in. The same kids who teased me went on *spiritual adventures* to India in college and came back *enlightened* and with lots of clothes/cultural items they wore to be cool. So I'm a bit sensitive to people taking things out of my culture and using them for their own gain. 

I can definitely see how that would be frustrating!

[Lurky]

2 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

One thing I've noticed is that, speaking very generally, people who are a bit removed from their culture, like the children of immigrants, tend to be a little more sensitive about cultural appropriation, which makes a lot of sense since it could be harder for a lot of them to maintain ties to their culture and they might feel differently than someone who has spent all their life in the country where that culture originates.

I don't think this is always the case at all.

Native people talking/writing about the inappropriate wearing of head-dresses, Black people talking/writing about how eg white women get praised for being edgy in corn-rows and Afros, while Black women get called ghetto and unprofessional, or talking about Kylie and Kendall Jenner's recent T shirt fiasco, Hindu women talking about pop stars wearing bindis, etc, are writing/speaking from within the heart of living cultures. 

 

[Henk12]

Wow she is affectionate 

But I can't blame her and I'm happy for her. When you grow up with 18 siblings and parents like Jim Boob and Michelle you probably don't get a lot of attention. It probably feels really good for her to finally have someone all to her self. I would imagine it's healing in a way. Poor Austin looks like he doesn't know what to think. 

Isn't it funny how Jessa, even Jill at first, Jinger and Joy all looked so much happier when they got married? It was like they were starving for love and now their emotional needs are being met more than before. 

[Rachel333]

11 hours ago, Lurky said:

I don't think this is always the case at all.

Native people talking/writing about the inappropriate wearing of head-dresses, Black people talking/writing about how eg white women get praised for being edgy in corn-rows and Afros, while Black women get called ghetto and unprofessional, or talking about Kylie and Kendall Jenner's recent T shirt fiasco, Hindu women talking about pop stars wearing bindis, etc, are writing/speaking from within the heart of living cultures. 

 

Well yeah, Native American people and black Americans have a totally different experience from the children of immigrants, which is the situation I was talking about. And I don't think that children of immigrants aren't speaking from "living cultures." It's just that if you grow up somewhere where you're discouraged from society at large from participating in your culture, you'll probably feel differently about cultural appropriation than someone who has grown up somewhere where that culture is the majority. @devoutjedi had a good explanation for how that worked for her.

[Lurky]

@Rachel333 But an American or British Hindu is still just as much a Hindu if they're a 3rd generation immigrant as if they were born in India - just as an American whose great-grandparents came from Ireland or Italy can still be a Catholic.  The thing about cultural appropriation of religious symbols - bindis etc, as we were talking about upthread - is that they're not something specific to a country, they're connected to the religion in the same way a crucifix can be. 

ETA Your premise, upthread, was that it's people who feel separated from their cultures who care most about cultural appropriation, or further upthread, people it doesn't effect directly.  I'm strongly disagreeing with that. 

 

[Rachel333]

4 minutes ago, Lurky said:

@Rachel333 But an American or British Hindu is still just as much a Hindu if they're a 3rd generation immigrant as if they were born in India - just as an American whose great-grandparents came from Ireland or Italy can still be a Catholic.  The thing about cultural appropriation of religious symbols - bindis etc, as we were talking about upthread - is that they're not something specific to a country, they're connected to the religion in the same way a crucifix can be. 

 

Of course they are... I'm not saying they're not? I'm a little confused now.  

I wasn't really talking about religious symbols, though, more culture in general (which is how the conversation in this thread started--I think we started with African fabrics before moving to religious symbols). A bindi isn't a specifically Hindu symbol anyway; I've known non-Hindu Indians, including Muslim women, who wear bindis as decoration.

[nastyhobbitses]

On 7/26/2017 at 8:19 PM, ThunderRolls said:

Joy getting jiggy with it so freely in front of others. It doesn't make me want to sew my eyeballs shut - yet. 

 

[HOTW]

Cultural appropriation is the hot topic and understandably in some cases where it is a disregard of the culture..however as a person with strong Celtic roots I dont bitch everytime I see someone wearing a kilt or gettong drunk as a skunk on St Patricks Day. Part of living in a country of immigrants is sharing your culture and if it becomes blended within then it can become a topic of conversation and education. One jas to remember thag the Scots were banned from wearing the tartan for many uears and if there is a eight ro be offended at the casual use by others that is surely it. But I prefer to use it as a conversarion starter!!

And I love Saris..i fins the clothing and adornments of india so colourful!

[Shadoewolf]

I couldn't sleep the other night so I ended up watching Henry's birth episode and the 2 after shows. Jeremy still weirds me out, but in some ways it seems like he's good for Jinger. Austin to me seems like a really sweet goofy guy who got stuck being raised in the wrong kind of home. Like there's scripting yes, but unless he's an amazing actor, there's real depth to his emotions both when he asks JB and at the wedding. I think he genuinely cares about Joy and if it weren't for their toxic beliefs they'd be fun to be around. And I'd love to see the two of them showing up Dwreck and doing legit work with Habitat for Humanity or building schools/homes in under-developed countries. I think with those two if they got away from the families influences long enough, there's a chance they'd go fundie lite.

[OyToTheVey]

6 hours ago, HOTW said:

Cultural appropriation is the hot topic and understandably in some cases where it is a disregard of the culture..however as a person with strong Celtic roots I dont bitch everytime I see someone wearing a kilt or gettong drunk as a skunk on St Patricks Day. Part of living in a country of immigrants is sharing your culture and if it becomes blended within then it can become a topic of conversation and education. One jas to remember thag the Scots were banned from wearing the tartan for many uears and if there is a eight ro be offended at the casual use by others that is surely it. But I prefer to use it as a conversarion starter!!

And I love Saris..i fins the clothing and adornments of india so colourful!

One of my absolute birthdays was in Dublin. I was with a tour group and we got drunker than a shunk, went to Temple Bar while wearing green caps that they sell as souvenirs, We obviously stood out as tourists but local Irish kept coming up to us and chatting. They weren't offended but in typical Irish fashion had a lot of banter. It was such a good time.

[MadeItOut]

Temple bar is a great place with loads of cool people. It's the artists' district too. The film institute and stuff is all down that way.

[Lilipad]

On 7/26/2017 at 11:39 PM, Rachel333 said:

One thing I've noticed is that, speaking very generally, people who are a bit removed from their culture, like the children of immigrants, tend to be a little more sensitive about cultural appropriation, which makes a lot of sense since it could be harder for a lot of them to maintain ties to their culture and they might feel differently than someone who has spent all their life in the country where that culture originates.

Anecdotally speaking .. I think this is true.

As someone from India myself .... I see and understand all of the points that @devoutjedi makes , but I have a hard time being offended about it.. except perhaps the dressing up for Halloween as generic Indian princess and what not, and perhaps a few celebrities. 

But in general , I don't mind any normal folks from any where wearing sari's, bindis, mehendi and like to seem cool or otherwise, or that anyone wearing any of these things for fun takes anything away from my own.  

Cultures change over time,  evolve and amalgamate things from other cultures. Many things that we consider 'Indian' now was at some point in history was brought by someone from the outside. And this is possibly true of every culture in the world, so I just see it as a process of people finding something interesting and different and trying it out. 

 

[justoneoftwo]

On 7/26/2017 at 8:14 PM, devoutjedi said:

On the topic of cultural appropriation -- I'm Indian and I do have a problem with people wearing Saris for funsies. My culture is not a costume. It's not something fun for you to put on just because. If you're invited to participate in an event where wearing a sari or kurta/kurti would be appropriate and you're respectful then I'm fine with that but I don't think it's appropriate to take it out of context and just wear it around because it's *different*. 

I suppose this is where I run into questions.  I agree its not a costume (I would have more of a problem with it as a fancy dress party) but is it only appropriate to wear at a particular event?  I had a friend who wore one to prom, it was beautiful and when we had another formal party to go to she asked to borrow my dress and I borrowed her sari.  In my head it was appropriate because it was the correct formality level, and not a costume just a gorgeous outfit.  Did that become inappropriate? How does one wear an outfit respectfully?  Does it matter if the goal is to be different or just to wear something that looks good?  

[Georgiana]

On 7/29/2017 at 10:32 AM, Lilipad said:

Cultures change over time,  evolve and amalgamate things from other cultures. Many things that we consider 'Indian' now was at some point in history was brought by someone from the outside. And this is possibly true of every culture in the world, so I just see it as a process of people finding something interesting and different and trying it out. 

One of the most interesting places I have ever had the opportunity to visit was Dunhuang, China: a remote outpost used frequently during the Silk Road.  There you will find the Mogao Caves, also known as the Thousand Buddha Grottos, which contain 1,000 years of very fine Buddhist art documenting the transfusion of Buddhism from India to China.  

What is fascinating about the caves is that the images change.  In the earliest images, the paintings are distinctly Indian.  Then as time goes on, the Han begin to own it.  Styles change.  Figures switch genders.  Buddhist figures begin taking on hallmarks of Chinese Folk Religion and Confucianism.  And by the time you get to the later images, everything has become almost unrecognizablely Han.  

It's incredible to be able to walk through that and "watch" as Buddhism goes from being something very much an import to China to being something that wholly incorporated into Han culture with a very unique Han cultural stamp.