Stockdale family murders

[Jug Band Baby]

5 hours ago, livinginthelight said:

Did anyone save the wife swap episode before they took it down?

 

My husband is trying to track it down.  If he can find it, I'll share it.

[EmiGirl]

2 hours ago, CrazyLurkerLady said:

DeeDee Blancharde and her daughter Gypsy Rose. I feel the same way about Gypsy as I do about the boy in this family. Murder is never understandable or acceptable, but at the same time, I can see why they would feel that was their only option.

Thank you for the names! Acceptable, no. Understandable, absolutely. I personally wish gypsy had just gotten sentenced to intense psychiatric treatment. She was on so many different types of medications that there was no way she could make rational decisions.

 

[TatiFish9]

5 hours ago, BirdgirlH said:

Because from what I read on the web cache (see above) he has had a terrible life, from birth. What his mother was detailing constitutes abuse, in my eyes, and I'm not surprised he snapped (just surprised it didn't happen sooner). Doesn't make it less terrible or sad and of course especially because his innocent brother was killed too.

I see what you mean. But this can be said for many criminals. People have some seriously fucked up lives. I am not here to judge at all. I do not know this young man's motivation. However, I think we need to be careful of this slippery slope. Otherwise we can say sympathy is deserved for people like Josh Duggar (for popular example). He was raised in a similiarly harmful environment with the religious portion added for a double layer of mind control and guilt. No doubt before the cameras arrived, the Duggar parents were worse with the abusive child rearing (considering the parenting methods they chose to follow) and the highly restrictive lifestyle they forced on their children. Their family behavior could have produced a child who is violent in a different way. No sympathy there? No sympathy here.

This man took two people's lives.

[Joyleaf]

I can say about Jacob Stockdale and Josh Duggar that what they did was horrible and still see that they grew up in terrible circumstances. I can even say that there might be a connection between these two facts.
That doesn't mean that it is an excuse for what they have done but it might be a contributing reason. And it might be a further explanation as to why we should not let parents treat their children as their personal property "shielding" them from outside influences to an extreme extend.


About Jacob Stockdale: From what I can see online he even had to pay for his fiddle lessons himself. SMH. These parents... They want to teach their children about the real world and hard work and that you have to earn stuff. While actually in the real world parents try to provide their kids with more than food, shelter and one hour of homeschooling per day.

Jacob and James seem to have had their own musical project going on as the "Stockdale Brothers", separate from the "Stockdale Family Band" they had with their father, and they had released an album as "Stockdale brothers". While I personally cannot say anything about the quality of their music (I don't know Bluegrass), they seem to have quite some bookings, the last one as "Stockdale Brothers" on the 13th (shooting was on the 15th) announced with "Swimming after concert in lovely cement pond. Share snacks, if desired."

I do wonder what was going on in that household shortly before the shooting.
Three brothers going on to college (except Jacob).
James, the last one still at home with him, the one he had a band with, being interested in going "into the business side of entertainment" as Calvin Stockdale said.
Maybe that would have left Jacob alone with the music, and ultimately alone on the farm, under his mother's control. *shiver*

[BirdgirlH]

1 hour ago, TatiFish9 said:

I see what you mean. But this can be said for many criminals. People have some seriously fucked up lives.

 

I do see where you're coming from as well , I just really have a different point of view. This discussion we are having right now? This boy (for he was not allowed to become an adult) would not be able to have it, for one because of lack of education (despite debate clubs), for another because he was trained to obey. If you look at the long, long post from his mother detailing how the family worked, you will come across this "obey" and "train" repeatedly. It's difficult to put into words the sense of despair I felt when reading the whole text. Not a minute of their life was unstructured, was just for enjoyment, every minute was to be accounted for and worked hard. EVERY minute. There are so many fucked up details she lets slip, like setting the oven timer when she calls them for breakfast and any second too late gets punished, having to work "with a joyful heart" for every strip of gum (or even those debate lessons!) the way she talks about her CHILDREN just makes me despair! There is NO love! It reminds me of those experiments they did in the Middle Ages with infants that were raised by nurses, half of them talked to and caressed and treated with love,the other half just given food and changed nappies etc. without giving them any affection at all. The latter half of the babies all died - because we, as human beings, need that affection! I'm also thinking of the Stockholm syndrome where regular people (of "normal", healthy/happy upbringing) react to extreme pressure during kidnapping with completely distorted emotions. Behaviour (feelings of affection towards kidnapper) that makes someone who isn't in that situation just scratch their heads. And that is only from a short-term high-pressure situation! I just cannot imagine growing up in a joyless environment of repression, goaded by sticks of gum that had to be earned by working my butt off from morning to night "with a joyful heart". So yes, I have a lot of sympathy (even to some extent for Josh Duggar, who I also view as a victim in some aspects). That doesn't make the killing acceptable by any means. But understandable! In the end, though, we are all armchair detectives and cannot know for sure what was going on. All I know is that what I read from that mother chilled me to the bone, and, yes, sympathy and sadness is all I have.

 

[Coy Koi]

55 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

No sympathy there? No sympathy here.

Well, I could have some sympathy for someone who did was Josh Duggar did. It would just depend on the person. If they seemed to truly understand how wrong their actions (and their parents' actions) were and tried to make amends and break harmful cycles, I would feel much differently about that hypothetical person than I feel about Josh, who as far as I can tell, does not have a single redeeming quality.

I don't know enough about Jacob Stockdale to have much of an opinion on whether he's redeemable or not. All I know is that I wouldn't wish his upbringing on my worst enemy and I can understand how it could make someone snap. He might be too far gone or he might not, I'd have to know a lot more about the situation to even venture a guess.

[Jug Band Baby]

1 hour ago, TatiFish9 said:

I see what you mean. But this can be said for many criminals. People have some seriously fucked up lives. I am not here to judge at all. I do not know this young man's motivation. However, I think we need to be careful of this slippery slope. Otherwise we can say sympathy is deserved for people like Josh Duggar (for popular example). He was raised in a similiarly harmful environment with the religious portion added for a double layer of mind control and guilt. No doubt before the cameras arrived, the Duggar parents were worse with the abusive child rearing (considering the parenting methods they chose to follow) and the highly restrictive lifestyle they forced on their children. Their family behavior could have produced a child who is violent in a different way. No sympathy there? No sympathy here.

This man took two people's lives.

Again, no one is excusing Jacob in this matter, but equating a repeat-molester who had far more freedom than the Stockdale boys to a boy whose every moment of every day of his entire life was entirely controlled is like comparing someone who steals a big TV because he's jealous his friends have nice, new, big TVs while he never gets anything new, to someone who steals food because he has no other way to get enough to eat.  Both are wrong, of course, but the circumstances behind each can mitigate the crimes.  Unless in self defense, the mitigation will rarely remove all guilt, but they can lessen it to some degree.

As fas as Josh is concerned, there has been some empathy here for him being raised in a restrictive environment.  We have blamed his parents very heavily.  Where Josh ended up being blamed is in his actions as an adult.  Even as an adult, he has never accepted responsibility, and has never held his parents accountable.  He has chosen to repeat the lifestyle he had with a kid that could have helped lead him to thinking that fingering a 5-year-old is okay with his own children, and has tried making himself out to be a victim of society.  If he had said, at the start when this was uncovered, that he was sorry for what he did, and he can identify what happened that resulted in him thinking how he did, and he was going to immediately make changes in his life to make sure the same things aren't taught to his kids, I think a lot of us would have praised him for owning what he did and dedicating to break the cycle.  He didn't do that though.  He was free of his parents, but has chosen to keep on the same path.

Jacob wasn't free of his parents.  While Josh had the time to fondle his sisters, the Stockdale boys didn't have the time to pee in peace. They had to use time in the bathroom to memorize song lyrics.  The Duggars got to socialize outside of their home, even if it was other fundy families.  The Stockdales weren't allowed, and meeting people to date was by chance at gigs.

Both sets of parents have a lot of responsibility, but where it really differs is that Josh could have owned what he was responsible for, but didn't, and chose to repeat the cycle since he continues to see nothing wrong with any of it.

[BirdgirlH]

Very well said, Jug Band Baby! I know different opinions are what make the world go round (or sth. like it), but I am glad that I'm not the only one who thinks the conditions those boys grew up in (as far as we know) were inhumane. The story literally gave me nightmares last night!

[JermajestyDuggar]

4 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

No sympathy there? No sympathy here.

Nope. That's not how it works for me. I look at each situation differently and I may have some sympathy for one killer while not for another. I used to work with criminals and I had more sympathy for some and less for others. I don't just cut off sympathy for all murderers or criminals. I have a large amount of sympathy for Andrea Yates and she killed five children. I can have sympathy for a person and still think they should be held accountable for their actions and get a life sentence in prison.

[Black Aliss]

13 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

Also, I notice a slighlty sympathetic tone waving through this thread. Just out of curiosity, how do we have understanding for someone who murders (a most likely) innocent family member?

Because even though we don't know what led up to the shooting and we have no way of knowing who, if anyone, was an innocent victim,  we do recognize mental illness and/or someone "snapping" after a lifetime of emotional abuse. I'm only surprised that this doesn't happen in more fundie families.

[TuringMachine]

8 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

Otherwise we can say sympathy is deserved for people like Josh Duggar (for popular example). He was raised in a similiarly harmful environment with the religious portion added for a double layer of mind control and guilt. No doubt before the cameras arrived, the Duggar parents were worse with the abusive child rearing (considering the parenting methods they chose to follow) and the highly restrictive lifestyle they forced on their children. Their family behavior could have produced a child who is violent in a different way. No sympathy there? No sympathy here.

I'm pretty sure many people here do have sympathy for Josh Duggar. I do at least. Not for adult Josh who cheated on his wife while preaching "family values", but for 14-15 year old Josh, the child with serious issues whose parents gravely failed him.

Also I really don't like your implication that anyone needs to feel the same way about every similar scenario. This and the Duggar cases are two very different things, and there's no reason anyone should have to feel the same way about them.

[hoipolloi]

15 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

Also, I notice a slighlty sympathetic tone waving through this thread. Just out of curiosity, how do we have understanding for someone who murders (a most likely) innocent family member?

And your point is?

No one here is advocating, endorsing or condoning what happened in this terrible case. We're discussing WHY it happened, and the role that the Stockdale parents' twisted belief system may have played in producing this family crisis. 

Speaking of the parents, the cached materials on the Wife Swap show, etc. seem to show the mother as being in the driver's seat in all this. If anyone here saw those episodes, do you recall if that was the case or if the father appeared to be an equal partner in controlling their sons' every thought, word & act? TIA for any insight you can share!

15 hours ago, CrazyLurkerLady said:

I can explain the diet. It the leaky gut diet....It's only supposed to be used for short periods of time and then regular food slowly reintroduced so anything that causes a reaction can be identified. It's a VERY limited diet, kind of like the first stage of the Adkins diet. I can't imagine living on the strictest form for the rest of my life.

Thank you, that's helpful info -- had wondered about that diet which seemed so strange, especially for growing kids.

[DomWackTroll]

26 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

Speaking of the parents, the cached materials on the Wife Swap show, etc. seem to show the mother as being in the driver's seat in all this.

But they also say that the father had a "stranglehold" on his sons, so I think we should give pause before putting all-- or even most-- of the blame for this tragedy on the mother. Yes, she sounds like a monster, but Mr. Stockdale was a full participant, a patriarch in a patriarchal subculture who seemed to completely support the child-rearing system described on their website. He could have stopped this, but he didn't. 

[Snarkle Motion]

5 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Nope. That's not how it works for me. I look at each situation differently and I may have some sympathy for one killer while not for another. I used to work with criminals and I had more sympathy for some and less for others. I don't just cut off sympathy for all murderers or criminals. I have a large amount of sympathy for Andrea Yates and she killed five children. I can have sympathy for a person and still think they should be held accountable for their actions and get a life sentence in prison.

I think we can feel tremendous sympathy and still agree this person deserves a life sentence for his actions. They aren't mutually exclusive. He murdered innocent people. It also sounds  like he lived under possibly  abusive conditions. Doesn't excuse his actions or mean his victims don't deserve justice but it can help us understand the tragedy and have sympathy for this person. 

Id be surprised if he survived without major brain damage. I'm guessing he attempted to shoot himself in the head, maybe chest. People can survive head wounds from attempted suicide but my understanding is that they rarely regain full functioning. Is there an update about his status? I'm guessing it's not publicly available but now I'm interested in this case. 

[Dandruff]

I feel some sympathy for the young Josh Duggar.

I feel a lot of sympathy for Jacob, without excusing the horror of what he did.

So many what-ifs.

Did he want to go to college or marry, but it wasn't approved?

Did he wake up one morning, following a dinner that included a blueberry mustard drink and cod liver oil, and have to go to the bathroom badly before heading downstairs for some giblets? And then have to pay a fine for being late?

How would it feel to have to pay for debate lessons when nothing could be debated outside of the lessons?

I find it interesting that the father wasn't home when it happened. To me, it seems further evidence that Jacob snapped. The brother, but not the father.  Why?

I hope that Jacob, assuming he recovers, has a full and fair mental evaluation prior to trial.  And that the dad has a full and fair interview by investigators.

[Gobsmacked]

My father worked two jobs most of my early childhood. He wasn't around because he was trying to feed us.

My mother took advantage of his absence and physically abused us. 50 years later my sister tried to explain to my father why non of us (3 sibs) liked my mother. Dad was completely distraught. He hadn't a clue , she hid it so well, I tend to give any hardworking father a pass. It's impossible for them to know what's happening when they are not at home.

 

19 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

I feel some sympathy for the young Josh Duggar.

I feel a lot of sympathy for Jacob, without excusing the horror of what he did.

So many what-ifs.

Did he want to go to college or marry, but it wasn't approved?

Did he wake up one morning, following a dinner that included a blueberry mustard drink and cod liver oil, and have to go to the bathroom badly before heading downstairs for some giblets? And then have to pay a fine for being late?

How would it feel to have to pay for debate lessons when nothing could be debated outside of the lessons?

I find it interesting that the father wasn't home when it happened. To me, it seems further evidence that Jacob snapped. The brother, but not the father.  Why?

I hope that Jacob, assuming he recovers, has a full and fair mental evaluation prior to trial.  And that the dad has a full and fair interview by investigators.

I would like to up vote you lots. You said what I thought very well.

[DomWackTroll]

20 minutes ago, Gobsmacked said:

...I tend to give any hardworking father a pass. It's impossible for them to know what's happening when they are not at home.

Not if their wives describe the abuse in excruciating detail on the family's own website. 

Having said that, I am very sorry for what you suffered at the hands of your mother, and I do believe you when you say your father was unaware of it. But Mr. Stockdale was not unaware of it; I don't see how that's possible. 

[Gobsmacked]

I believe, because of my own experience , that some fathers totally believe that their wives are good mothers and can do no wrong. 

Sadly that is so so wrong. Love is very blind sadly.

[Coy Koi]

42 minutes ago, DomWackTroll said:

But they also say that the father had a "stranglehold" on his sons, so I think we should give pause before putting all-- or even most-- of the blame for this tragedy on the mother. Yes, she sounds like a monster, but Mr. Stockdale was a full participant, a patriarch in a patriarchal subculture who seemed to completely support the child-rearing system described on their website. He could have stopped this, but he didn't. 

I'm only going by the manual because I have nothing else to go by, but there was a lot less about patriarchy than is usually found with fundies we discuss. The mom said they have very traditional roles as far as her being a homemaker and him working on the farm and having an outside job, but they don't seem to do submission at all. She said they talk things out and if they still disagree, the one who feels less less strongly defers (well, she said differs but I think that's what she meant). She said she's the primary disciplinarian but he backs her up. She also said it annoys her that he isn't good at managing his time (unusual for a fundie to openly criticize her husband, and also suggests he may be less psycho-controlling).

It's definitely his fault too for whatever his role was in this abusive environment, but it sounds like it might have been her driving it.

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

Mr. Stockdale didn't see it as abuse.  He saw/sees it as how to raise protected obedient children,  He has no other frame of reference and to him it's normal and necessary.  We have no idea how Mom & Dad Stockdale were reared. Could have been the same way.

We see it as abuse because we have another frame of reference and know that what they were/are doing is in no way normal.

Adding:  This sounds so disgusting that I I almost had a mini gag at the thought of it "a dinner that included a blueberry mustard drink and cod liver oil, ... heading downstairs for some giblets"

[DomWackTroll]

22 minutes ago, Coy Koi said:

I'm only going by the manual because I have nothing else to go by, but there was a lot less about patriarchy than is usually found with fundies we discuss. The mom said they have very traditional roles as far as her being a homemaker and him working on the farm and having an outside job, but they don't seem to do submission at all. She said they talk things out and if they still disagree, the one who feels less less strongly defers (well, she said differs but I think that's what she meant). She said she's the primary disciplinarian but he backs her up. She also said it annoys her that he isn't good at managing his time (unusual for a fundie to openly criticize her husband, and also suggests he may be less psycho-controlling).

It's definitely his fault too for whatever his role was in this abusive environment, but it sounds like it might have been her driving it.

I think if they had had daughters as well as sons, we might have a clearer picture of some of the male/female stuff. As it is, there was a lot left unsaid, I agree. 

[amendgitan]

18 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

Also, I notice a slighlty sympathetic tone waving through this thread. Just out of curiosity, how do we have understanding for someone who murders (a most likely) innocent family member?

Snipped for space. 

I have more than a slightly sympathetic tone. I feel disgusted for those boys and saddened by how utterly controlled and dominated they were. And I'm not shocked by what happened. As some have said, I'm surprised it doesn't happen more in these families. 

In fact, much like Andrea Yates who was literally driven insane by the dictates of her Quiverful culture that demanded she continue having as many "blessings" as the lord provided, despite clear advice from her doctors that her post-partum depression would worsen, and then her post-partum psychosis would worsen, and she would be a danger to herself and others with additional pregnancies, I believe the culture within which this young man was raised should act as a mitigating factor. 

What about the likes of Josh Duggar or any of the other child abusing, sex offending and/or sexual assaulting adults who were raised in this culture? Well, his upbringing could certainly have been a mitigator when he was young. But his act of molesting young girls was an expression of his embracing of the patriarchy. It wasn't the result of psychosis or a mental breakdown that caused him to snap in rage or despair. And we know this because he planned, acted in secrecy, confessed when confronted but reoffended, then confessed again and showed he knew it was wrong. 

And then as an adult with what appears to be full control of his faculties, he showed again that  he has adopted the central, sexist message of the Christian patriarchy- that women are sex objects that men can do what they want with. 

Yes, one can be majorly influenced to do wrong by the way they were raised and the messages they received. Their level of culpability, however, is measured in large part by their level of sanity and understanding that what they were doing was illegal or by their understanding as to the nature of what they did. (Yates was confused and psychotic and thought she had to kill her kids to save them from evil). 

In this young man's case there may be evidence that he lost his mind and snapped. His family's lifestyle suggests that to many of us. 

So I am more than sympathetic. I am convinced his parents' treatment of him is a mitigating circumstance and any comparison to those criminals and sexist pigs like Josh Duggar, Doug Phillips and Bill Gothard, all of whom appear to have had their faculties when they assaulted people or in Doug and Josh's cases, hypocritically cheated on their wives, is illogical. 

[hoipolloi]

4 hours ago, DomWackTroll said:

But they also say that the father had a "stranglehold" on his sons, so I think we should give pause before putting all-- or even most-- of the blame for this tragedy on the mother. Yes, she sounds like a monster, but Mr. Stockdale was a full participant, a patriarch in a patriarchal subculture who seemed to completely support the child-rearing system described on their website. He could have stopped this, but he didn't. 

Good points and this is why Iʻd like to know to what extent, if any, Mr. Stockdale participated in the abusive lifestyle as seen in the Wife Swap episodes. Was he shown handing out fines for being late to breakfast or dishing out the other penalties Mrs. Stockdale describes in the manual?

For that matter, what about the older brothers who had left the home? Is this controlling abuse something they've replicated in their own homes or did they leave it behind?  If they left it behind, what did they know, think or do about their younger siblings still under their parents' control? 

[Jug Band Baby]

3 hours ago, DomWackTroll said:

But they also say that the father had a "stranglehold" on his sons, so I think we should give pause before putting all-- or even most-- of the blame for this tragedy on the mother. Yes, she sounds like a monster, but Mr. Stockdale was a full participant, a patriarch in a patriarchal subculture who seemed to completely support the child-rearing system described on their website. He could have stopped this, but he didn't. 

He was an adult who chose to go into this life, but it sounds like he was under her thumb more too.  She was the family manager and leader, and even said on the page that she didn't keep anything to herself.  She ran the show, literally and figuratively.  But yes, he hold some blame for not stopping this.

[BirdgirlH]

There is a gofundme for the Stockdale family now, to help with funeral and medical costs. Some more statements too. His brother saying even though they might never understand why, they want everyone, particularly Jacob, to know that they love and forgive him.