Duggars by the Dozen 29 - A Very Inappropriate Lawsuit

[mango_fandango]

I like joshuass personally 

[sawasdee]

Quote

Just like the Duggar girls, I was taught my body was not my own, it belonged to men. So when men started taking advantage of me, I knew I had to give in- because I didn't own myself- men did. 

@KelseyAnnYou just made me cry.  I am so sorry this happened to you.

[TheDuggarnaut]

How did I miss this? I read about the girls' lawsuit, but haven't seen anything about Josh's.

Regarding Anna - factoring in these lawsuits as well as them now openly posting photos of Josh, I feel pretty sure that Jim boob has a Great Plan. Probably formulated shortly after Joshgate2. It's a big plan with the progressive steps we've been seeing.

I'm pretty sure Anna was presented with the idea that if she stayed with Josh and worked on the marriage, this would eventually be parlayed into a prosperous ministry, either for the entire clan, or Josh and Anna specifically. I think there are a lot of calculated moves on their part.

I'm not sure what kind of success they will have with the lawsuits, though.

 

[VeryNikeSeamstress]

8 hours ago, Letizia said:

I'm going for changing Josh to Jouche after the amazing Josh Duggar(is a douche) posts.

Jouchua? Somebody earlier said Douchua, which is also great.

[MadeItOut]

8 hours ago, Fluffy14 said:

I had to go check the rules about what I could post about. I had a list of my own examples of how this is not feasible but refrain because I would get kicked off. This is not a true statement not every child has other adults in their lives who are safe. 

I wasn't suggesting those other adults are safe. I'm sorry I wasn't clear - that was tiredness and emotion.

What I was aiming at, while simultaneously trying to contain some other thoughts that would be less than productive, was to point out that apart from the inappropriacy of dumping on the victim/survivor parent, it's also never just the role of one, or even both parents to protect any child. Every adult in a child's life should be reporting anything untoward to the police or whatever local DCFS office.

The practical reality is that one of the worst parts of trying to get out is carrying the outside judgements of adults on the outside - especially when they're dumping on you and not bothering to report any concerns themselves. As an aside, there's also a difference in approach with male and female victims/survivors. A male is likely to get recognised for the difficulty of everything '+ having children', where the female is far more likely to have criticism levelled at her for failing to protect.

That's the abstract direction I was aiming at.

More specifically, looking at this family group, those four children are in regular contact with: both parents, Gma Mary, Jana JD, the Dillards now they're back (& if he's cover teaching, then he's a mandated reporter), the Seewalds, Joe, Josiah, Joy, until recently Tabitha Paine, plus an entire 'church' community (more mandated reporters there) ...and that's conceivably before ever stepping off the compound into the wider world. At that point we're into doctors, dentists, and other adults they're in touch with, to say nothing of the wider families.

Every single one of those adults of majority have a responsibility to be reporting any concerns to the authorities and if reports are made, then those authorities are required to investigate and involve themselves if necessary. 

I'm not going to get into who may or may not be reporting or looking the other way, that's not appropriate, but it is interesting to note quite how much dumping onto Anna's load is going on in here generally at present and in a seeming vacuum without any pitchforks at any of these other adults who also should also be protecting these children. 

[RosyDaisy]

When has Anna neglected her kids? Compared to say Michelle, she's rather involved. 

When she decided to stay with a man who molested his sisters.

[VelociRapture]

You know what? This conversation is literally going nowhere. Anna is both victim and perpetrator at this point and she will continue to be both until she gets herself and her kids out. As such, she has earned and deserves sympathy, understanding, and justified criticism. The only people in this situation who deserve full sympathy are the innocent children being raised in this cult, especially the M kids.

Thats all I'm adding. I don't think this conversation is going to progress further, so I'll leave the rest of you to it.

@HarleyQuinnI'm partial to Josh Duggar (who wants cheese with that whine), but I'm leaning towards Josh Duggar (the reason for my middle finger boner) as well.

[HarleyQuinn]

Josh Duggar ('s parents should've used a condom)

[SilverBeach]

19 hours ago, KelseyAnn said:

I'm sorry, but choosing to stay with an asshat and choosing to expose her kids to dangerous ideology is neglect. If not outright abusive. 

I think most people see the word neglect and think inadequate food, clothing, shelter, education, medical care, etc. The Mkids don't seem to be suffering in any of these areas (I don't know about education, SOTDRT is not the best). So there may be some hesitancy to say she is neglecting them.

However, I agree that raising them in the cult is bad, bad, bad. Hopefully, she rejected blanket training and all that Pearl shit, which is indeed abusive.

[moriah]

I'm afraid I started, or at least contributed, to this because, as I said, I've always been curious about how and when people who are raised in a spiritually (if nothing else) abusive cult become the abuser. But I was more referring to people like Barbara Steed Jessop, who let her barely pubescent daughter get married to and raped by Warren Jeffs.  I'm not naming the victim and the state tried hard to avoid doing so, but her name was revealed during the investigation by people online who figured out who the underage brides were. And once her name and face were already in the press, Barbara put videos up online during the CPS investigation exploiting her still young daughter's tears.

Personally, I've been lucky.  I didn't have a perfect childhood or family, but all our skeletons are on the couch having tea rather than locked in a closet -- they didn't keep secrets past puberty with me about any of the issues most families hide.  I also had the blessing of attending Alateen as a young person, so I understood why some of those skeletons existed and, most importantly, that none of it was my fault and I could still love someone while hating what they do/did.  That love didn't mean I had to let them walk on me, in fact *not* enabling them was kinder.  

Also, seeing my sister leave her husband three months into the marriage because he hit her, then calling 911 when he tried to kidnap her off our front porch, thinking because she sprained her ankle the day before she'd be easy prey... watching her instead beat the living daylights out of him with the crutches.... . She told me how it started, and I remembered him trying to drive away her friends, isolate her where she had no transportation, etc, so what she said made sense.  The man who tried to isolate me, not let me work, control my transportation, and then told me when I insisted on seeing a long-time female friend who didn't like him that he'd take me, but would go to the "titty bar" instead of staying... well, that created a thought that was too good of a breakup line, and I'd already realized in that fight that while he wasn't physically abusive that was meant as a verbal slap at my body insecurities...  "Good, because you aren't seeing these titties again."

But not everyone had the advantages I had.  People raised in spiritually abusive cults like this have the exact opposite things drilled into them.  There's so many backgrounds and life experiences in between, and abusers choose their targets well and are extremely manipulative.  

As far as CPS and mandated reporting, we saw how that failed here -- had Jim Holt fulfilled his legal obligations as a mandated reporter in 2003, any investigation would have clearly had the flag "juvenile" instead of "adult" for the offender, and would have never been released as it would have been properly sealed/expunged.  Of course, we know he was drinking the same Kool-Aid.  Another advantage I have is that my mother worked for DHS, so I knew if a social worker shows up, the absolute best thing is to cooperate fully. The families we snark on who have CPS dealings often don't get that, and don't understand that an investigation is required for any report, even a false one.  The Duggars did better apparently in 2006 about that than in 2015, considering the 911 call that could have gone down far differently given all the social worker was doing was essentially a welfare check.  Raising children to fear the government isn't healthy in my opinion, and that seems to be a theme for many and reinforced by Gothardism.  What else does a child learn when they witness their parents refusing entry to a social worker?

And yes, I've been the unlucky roommate twice to be the only adult home when a social worker showed up about vindictive false repots.  I immediately let them in, asked if they needed anything to drink, showing the kitchen, full refrigerator, and stocked pantry at the same time (an item I know is on a checklist), and the time when my roommate's children were present I referred to her as "this nice lady" to the kids and tried to act like it was totally normal until we could get into an area of the house they couldn't hear us in to answer her questions.  I was actually able to get proof she could photograph that the allegation in that case was false.   There was one follow-up visit to actually speak with the parents, but the case was closed immediately after that.  The kids grandmother freaked that I'd been so open at first, but the friend she had with her immediately backed me up, having been a social worker herself.  I didn't like it, but l knew that open honesty was the best policy with DHS when you have nothing to hide.

[KelseyAnn]

1 hour ago, SilverBeach said:

I think most people see the word neglect and think inadequate food, clothing, shelter, education, medical care, etc. The Mkids don't seem to be suffering in any of these areas (I don't know about education, SOTDRT is not the best). So there may be some hesitancy to say she is neglecting them.

However, I agree that raising them in the cult is bad, bad, bad. Hopefully, she rejected blanket training and all that Pearl shit, which is indeed abusive.

emotional neglect is still neglect. 

[VelociRapture]

9 minutes ago, KelseyAnn said:

emotional neglect is still neglect. 

Yes. But I think @SilverBeach makes a good point. There could be a miscommunication going on as to what people mean when using the terms abuse and neglect in this conversation. Some people may be thinking of the worst circumstances, such as @moriahmentioning the Jessops and FLDS. Others, like myself, used the terms in a much broader manner encompassing pretty much every type of abuse or neglect. The Duggar adults, including Anna, fall into at least the neglect category (due to the educations they provide) as well as spiritual abuse (because their cult is abusive) under that standard.

[moriah]

6 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

Yes. But I think @SilverBeach makes a good point. There could be a miscommunication going on as to what people mean when using the terms abuse and neglect in this conversation. Some people may be thinking of the worst circumstances, such as @moriahmentioning the Jessops and FLDS. Others, like myself, used the terms in a much broader manner encompassing pretty much every type of abuse or neglect. 

Yes.... my fundie obsession started with them.  It wasn't always so crazy, but gradually people were being brainwashed once Warren got in power.  I am fascinated with the psychology involved in that progression, and lessons we can learn from it -- how *do* women exercise what little power they have according to their various Christian Patriarchy belief systems?  What reinforces identification with a cult and fear of outsiders for these women, so we can avoid it when trying to offer help? 

In a way, I'd rather not see smart people leaving Gothardsism in droves, because it would lead to the more easily molded people being still being exposed to the teachings, plus might create schisms akin to shunning and/or being told people speaking against the IBLP teachings are all liars and/or evil apostates trying to destroy them.  I'd rather those smart people reform IBLP/ATI now that Gothard is gone.  Examine everything he taught in light of the pun on his last name being all too accurate, particularly his teachings about dealing with domestic violence, the mother's power to protect her children from abuse even if her headship is the abuser, and dealing with sexual assault/molestation... and toss the parts that make families more likely to shove those kinds of abuse under the rug and blame the victims.

It might not fix everything I disagree with in Gothardism, it might not stop all of the types of abuse and neglect that the teachings and associated people promote (educational, medical, emotional, spiritual), but it would help a lot more families if IBLP changed at least those horrible teachings obviously designed to create victims for Gothard from within.  

But I'm weird.

[Queen]

13 hours ago, Fluffy14 said:

The very nature of the lack of proper teaching regarding development, sex, and absurd sexual obsessions around fertility, purity are abusive. The child has no vocabulary to express what their inner voice is telling them is wrong. I am sure this varies from home to home.  It just creates a breeding ground for predators. the part that gets me in fundie circles is that the environment they created for purity is the very environment that enables the abuse, and yet nobody has the brains to look at it and say wait, this isn't working.  The Duggars had a major breakdown in their methods but instead of blaming the methods or doctrine they keep the cycle moving forward.

All of this, but especially the bolded part (bolding done by me). 

What about Smugbag for Josh? It's a combination of Smuggar and douchebag

 

[moriah]

33 minutes ago, Queen said:

What about Smugbag for Josh? It's a combination of Smuggar and douchebag

At this point, there really are no words for Josh.  How anyone would try to cash in on molesting people is beyond me.  

As far as the lawsuit, Josh's attorney seems to assert that Josh was underage when the police reports were made and the FINS case began.  That's patently false.  It also seems like they assert interviews with Josh were released.  In fact, what was released stated he refused to be interviewed and the attorney originally thought to be present wouldn't be representing him.  Unless one of the collateral statements in the Springdale report was Josh, which it didn't seem like...   and we never figured out if it really was him.  Again, if they're going to use FJ postings as the measure of identification, instead of articles on the 22nd of May from Conservatives comparing Josh to Lena Dunham, that breaks down.  It's a pathetically written Complaint, cobbled from his sister's lawyer's work and poorly modified to apply to him.

Fortunately, I think the defense of "unclean hands" would apply for Josh.  Even though he probably has more actual economic damages he could prove, the very fact the legislature changed the law thanks to Jim Bob's pet congresscritter to make records like his unavailable via FOIA implies they were available before.  His filing being made on June 2nd shows he was trying to get at least InTouch for the publication of the less redacted Washington County report on June 3rd as far as statute of limitations and "timeliness".  

But painting himself as a victim here because no one could play more than a tiny violin for him... bullshit.  I know people here, and the articles by InTouch, have repeatedly criticized JBoob and OfJBoob for not getting him real treatment at an age that it can help more.  He both needed and deserved that help, and it's better earlier than late.  Instead, they still seem to think everyone can be cured by enough hard work and prayer.  He needed to have that worldly knowledge of proper sexual boundaries that he would have learned at the very facility Jim Holt worked at.  Their fear of the outside world made them deny their son real treatment.  That's screwed up.  And I've repeatedly criticized Holt for not fulfilling his mandated reporting duties.  Everyone acknowledged that the response from his parents and "church" was woefully inadequate.  

That's about as much sympathy as any sane person can muster for someone who could have been charged with seven counts of sex offenses as a juvenile.  Jumping in on this cash grab makes a lot of that sympathy go away for me.  

[MayMay1123]

i just started noticing tv adverts for 'duke's mayonnaise' and every time i hear them say 'dukes' i hear 'douche' and think of josh and you all. thanks a lot, FJ! 

[Jess]

Although it's widely plead as an default affirmative defense unclean hands only works in practice for thinks like injunctions it doesn't really apply to monetary damages. Josh will lose because his case is completely laughable. In touch will get their part dismissed as past the statute of limitations before paper discovery even starts and that's if they can even get the motion to intervene granted. Half the causes of action against the city and county will be dismissed for the same reasons. 

[Swamptribe]

I have a feeling, the whole reason they filed the suit is because they were counting on an out of court settlement.  Which makes me wonder why the frack Josh jumped in on the suit like he did? 

[sunshine]

1 hour ago, Swamptribe said:

I have a feeling, the whole reason they filed the suit is because they were counting on an out of court settlement.  Which makes me wonder why the frack Josh jumped in on the suit like he did? 

I don't think the girls thought of suing on their own. I think someone encourage them to seek out a lawsuit as well as Josh for a possible bigger payout. Whoever the person or persons involved, sure did a pretty bang up job. Now, we have to wait for the fallout.

[HarryPotterFan]

1 hour ago, Swamptribe said:

 I have a feeling, the whole reason they filed the suit is because they were counting on an out of court settlement.  Which makes me wonder why the frack Josh jumped in on the suit like he did? 

Because some people are so full of themselves and think the sun shines out of their ass, and are convinced life owes them something?

[nst]

could be the wrong thread but the douche is in pictures now up and front and centre with the rest of the family who is apparently at an amusement park 

no hiding the douche it looks and the humpers are loving him

[moriah]

I did have a thought. It's doubtful this was the plan given that the proposed Complaint is so terribly written, but there are probably stronger laws protecting juvenile offenders records and requiring them to be sealed than there are protecting the identity of victims of sexual abuse/assault.  

It would be easy for the main plaintiffs to argue that if any of the releases violated the rights of a juvenile offender, they certainly violated the rights his victims should have (the 14th Amendment argument) as well.  

If that was the "master plan", they still used a really crappy proposed Complaint.  They made several mistaken assertions, like saying he was a juvenile in December of 2006.  He wasn't, which is why the police reports flagged the alleged offender in the computer system as an adult.  

It just makes me sick to think a sex addict and confessed serial child molester could get any money for his crimes.  However this twist turns out, I hope a jury award would be $1 if they decided anything in his favor.

[purjolok84]

All of this, but especially the bolded part (bolding done by me). 
What about Smugbag for Josh? It's a combination of Smuggar and douchebag [emoji14]
 

First name Smug, last name Bag. I like it!

And I will be Princess Consuela Banana Hammock! (sorry I couldn't resist!)

[SilverBeach]

12 hours ago, KelseyAnn said:

emotional neglect is still neglect. 

I'm not sure what you mean by emotional neglect. I think of it as lack of love, attention, and guidance that parents are supposed to provide. Do you think Anna being in the cult automatically makes her guilty of these things? Or do you define emotional neglect another way?

2 minutes ago, purjolok84 said:

 

First name Smug, last name Bag. I like it!

And I will be Princess Consuela Banana Hammock! (sorry I couldn't resist!)

 

Somebody reads Ask a Manager!

[purjolok84]

could be the wrong thread but the douche is in pictures now up and front and centre with the rest of the family who is apparently at an amusement park 
no hiding the douche it looks and the humpers are loving him

Just disgusting - I guess as long as God and his lessers forgive all then all is truly erased with time. After all, the small opinions of unbelievers and heathens don't reeeaaaly matter, do they?

Keep building that fortress against Satan, Smugbag!