Blackjack Bateses! - Bates 21

[RosyDaisy]

A thunderstorm was no time to be working on anything electrical. Those guys could have been electrocuted! WTF???

[speller24]

I  am all up to speed on the newest episodes, and oh my the John and Alyssa bit was actually reality. She's wearing leggings, handling her kids, trading off with John so she can go to WORK!? whoa-is this still fundieland? At what point do they become just conservative Christian? Also John did a great job with the girls. I'm just super impressed by the whole thing. It didn't have that scripted feel. Alyssa felt rushed and stressed, John felt comfortable in his role as a father-not like when JB or Gil do the 3 ring circus bbq tuna sandwich thing.

[Fun Undies]

On 8/12/2017 at 6:59 AM, crazysnark said:

-snip- At this point I would consider Alyssa mainstream Christian.Yes she probably is against abortion and doesn't approve of homosexual relationships, but this is true of most Christians. 

Is it though?

. . . I mean I don't have statistics to back me up here or anything (I'm about to head to bed, but maybe I can look it up more in the morning), but the majority I've been around aren't really into the whole fire and brimstone stuff anymore @_@

Sorry if I derail the thread, didn't even realize the show was back yet, and was reading through the thread just now, and saw the above post, so just wanted to ask ~ carry on peeps, carry on

[FloraDoraDolly]

2 hours ago, Fun Undies said:

Is it though?

. . . I mean I don't have statistics to back me up here or anything (I'm about to head to bed, but maybe I can look it up more in the morning), but the majority I've been around aren't really into the whole fire and brimstone stuff anymore @_@

Sorry if I derail the thread, didn't even realize the show was back yet, and was reading through the thread just now, and saw the above post, so just wanted to ask ~ carry on peeps, carry on

Most conservative evangelical Christians are against abortion and same-sex marriage.

[Fun Undies]

6 hours ago, FloraDoraDolly said:

Most conservative evangelical Christians are against abortion and same-sex marriage.

I don't disagree with that statement, but I don't think it's accurate of "most Christians" that's all - though I can admit I'm biased, and only going by the ones I personally know, and met, and have talked with online.

Here's one article I found via Google, though I'm sure there's more . . . Graph hidden under spoiler tag.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/18/most-u-s-christian-groups-grow-more-accepting-of-homosexuality/

Spoiler

 

[HereticHick]

58 minutes ago, Fun Undies said:

I don't disagree with that statement, but I don't think it's accurate of "most Christians" that's all

"Most Christians"  does not equal "Most conservative evangelical Christians"

Also, I am glad that others love Carlin's "Jesus Loves The Mall" tag as much as I did

[Fun Undies]

25 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

"Most Christians"  does not equal "Most conservative evangelical Christians"

Also, I am glad that others love Carlin's "Jesus Loves The Mall" tag as much as I did

Maybe I'm misreading this, and if so, I apologize .  . . But that's the point I was trying to get across, that I don't think it's fair to say, "most Christians" when negatively referencing their (evangelical conservative Christians) beliefs about LGBTQ+ and abortion rights.  I dont think that's an accurate representation of the religion.

I do apologize if my post wasn't clear, or I'm just "splitting" hairs here, between the terms of "most christians" and "evangelical conservative" . . . It obviously touches a nerve for me, to be grouped with people who don't see the kind of pain they cause with their words, actions, and desperation to fight against basic civil rights.

I can certainly bow out of this convo since I don't mean derail the thread from the main point: which is the ridiculousness of the Bates "mission" lifestyle i.e. vacation.

[fluffernutter]

Just saw the latest episode. I am floored that they didn't have smoke detectors up???? After the fire dept GAVE THEM A BOX??!!! Seriously I thought it was a law to have working smoke detectors. WTF. 

 

[sunshine]

36 minutes ago, fluffernutter said:

Just saw the latest episode. I am floored that they didn't have smoke detectors up???? After the fire dept GAVE THEM A BOX??!!! Seriously I thought it was a law to have working smoke detectors. WTF. 

 

Well, thank goodness that Nathan came home when he did.

[JesusCampSongs]

12 hours ago, Fun Undies said:

I don't disagree with that statement, but I don't think it's accurate of "most Christians" that's all - though I can admit I'm biased, and only going by the ones I personally know, and met, and have talked with online.

Here's one article I found via Google, though I'm sure there's more . . . Graph hidden under spoiler tag.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/18/most-u-s-christian-groups-grow-more-accepting-of-homosexuality/

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I don't want to be a jerk, but the wording in that poll is so broad as to be almost meaningless. There are a lot of Christians out there who think that not putting gay people to death or sending them to work camps is progressive, or who only support "side b" gayness, which is super fucked up and destructive. Until I see numbers on actual policies, like LGBT being included as a protected class in Civil Rights legislation, I'm going to remain skeptical that most Christians support LGBT rights in any meaningful sense. 

[JMO]

So this discussion reminds me of something I think we've been hedging around a while, especially on this thread.  How do we differentiate fundies from Christian conservative? Alyssa wears pants and bathing suits, works outside the home and at least has said things that hint that she and her hubbie may be purposefully limiting their child bearing.  At what point does she slide over to Christian Conservative or Fundie lite?  It's easy keep some of the Duggars/Bateseses in the fundie pile but others like Alyssa and Jinger are a little murkier.  Jinger has a husband espousing hardline fundie rhetoric but if we did find out that they were purposefully limiting their pregnancy opportunities what would we call them?  Fundie lite? I know that these are ambiguous categories somewhat.  What do you think are the defining characteristics for each category?  I don't think we can do it solely based on one or two things.  Going back to LGBT litmus test I have family members that are hard core Republican and are devout Christians but because of friends and family members who are gay, bi, and/or trans they are very pro LGBT rights.  

[formergothardite]

To me people are still fundie even if they wear pants, work, and/or watch tv if they are willing to use the government to force their religious beliefs on others, and most evangelicals fall into that category. They vote based on their religion and thinking that Americans need to follow their beliefs. They are willing to strip people of marriage/children and put the lives of women in danger all because of their religion. That is pretty fundie to me. 

[faraway]

It's so obvious that Alyssa wants a family like John's and not her own. 

Has anyone else noticed that the Bates girls have gone even less modest with their clothes? I've been seeing lots of regular V-necks lately. When I saw an insta story from Carlin of watching the eclipse I was almost shocked. I can post a picture tomorrow if anyone wants to see it. 

[Palimpsest]

4 hours ago, JMO said:

So this discussion reminds me of something I think we've been hedging around a while, especially on this thread.  How do we differentiate fundies from Christian conservative?

It's not so much hedging around as it is some people arguing these people are "just" conservative Christian without understanding the background and how deep the Fundie beliefs go.  And how those Fundie ideas are invading even evangelical and other "conservative" churches with their poison.

To me it is quite clear-cut and well defined.  Christian Fundie = subscribes partially or totally to the Christian (or Biblical) Patriarchal Movement.  

Wikipedia article, needs updating, but here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_patriarchy

Libby Anne has an excellent definition and good links to other articles here:  http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/christian-patriarchyquiverfull

Quote

 

While their roots go back much further and their influence spreads much wider, the Christian Patriarchy and Quiverfull movements were born in the homeschool movement in the 1980s and have since grown by leaps and bounds. Christian Patriarchy teaches that families must follow a strict patriarchal order and Quiverfull teaches that families must raise up numerous children as foot soldiers to build Christ’s kingdom on earth. While technically distinct, these two movements nevertheless almost always go hand in hand.

The Christian Patriarchy and Quiverfull movements have no one leader or organizational structure. Rather, there exists a cluster of leaders who may or may not view each other as allies but nevertheless promote similar teachings and run a variety of organizations and ministries that often network with each other. These leaders include, but are not limited to, Bill Gothard, Nancy Campbell, Mary Pride, Doug Wilson, Doug Phillips, Geoff Botkin, Jonathan Lindvall, Scott Brown, and Michael Pearl. Families involved in the Christian Patriarchy and Quiverfull movements are generally influenced by the teachings of one or more of these loosely networked leaders.

Read more at http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/christian-patriarchyquiverfull#qySXsGhWWOfUlgCh.99

 

(I disagree slightly with Libby Anne in that I don't think all believers in Christian Patriarchy are Quiverfull although there is a large overlap.)

It has nothing to do with how they dress - it is the core beliefs.

Basically it is the supremacy of the Patriarch over his family.  Wives must submit, children are possessions, they live in a closed system "separate from the world," and rely on Old Testament teachings to justify their hatred of anyone that isn't completely hetero and unambiguously male or female.  And abortion is always bad because "unborn babies" are so much more valued than women.  They also subscribe to the Great Commission and want World Dominion where everyone is converted not just to Christianity -- but to their twisted version of Christianity. 

Conservative Christians (or Fundie-Lite, if you will) are evangelical (they like to spread the Gospel too), but are more likely to talk about complementarian marriage and value women more, and tend to be much less judgmental of difference.  They also have more open systems.

[nokidsmom]

21 hours ago, faraway said:

It's so obvious that Alyssa wants a family like John's and not her own. 

I am still of the camp that Alyssa wanted out of her parents' home and was beyond ecstatic when she got married.  Not just to be with John but to finally do her own thing.  Instead of outright rebelling, she played along until she got what she wanted.

Not that she didn't love John, I think she absolutely does but I really think she wanted to be where she would live a more mainstream lifestyle and John's family, while still very conservative/fundie from a belief standpoint, live more mainstream than the family she was raised in.   She may never give up her fundie beliefs though, but at the same time, let's be honest she's not been raised in a way to makes for any deep thinking so I don't think she gives much thought to it.  She's just happy with her life these days and that's all that matters.

[BeccaGrim]

On ‎8‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 1:21 PM, nokidsmom said:

I am still of the camp that Alyssa wanted out of her parents' home and was beyond ecstatic when she got married.  Not just to be with John but to finally do her own thing.  Instead of outright rebelling, she played along until she got what she wanted.

How did they meet? I don't think I know.  

[nokidsmom]

5 minutes ago, BeccaGrim said:

How did they meet? I don't think I know.  

IIRC I think they met at a wedding.  

[Palimpsest]

44 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

I am still of the camp that Alyssa wanted out of her parents' home and was beyond ecstatic when she got married.  Not just to be with John but to finally do her own thing.  Instead of outright rebelling, she played along until she got what she wanted.

I think you have a point that Alyssa may have wanted out of the Bates family circus.  However, the only problem that I have with your theory is that she married John Webster.  The son of Taliban Dan (known Gothard lover) and probably John is someone who is as soaked in the Patriarchal kool-aid as any other Gothardite.

@nelliebelle1197, used to use #superficial twit to describe Alyssa.  It sounds harsh because she was so young when she was married, but is possibly warranted.  Alyssa may have seen a family that:

•  was infinitely wealthier, politically known, and more famous than her own,
• didn't depend on Daddy's grifting (before Gil sold out the family to TLC),
• Unlike Gil and Kelly, wasn't "personally convicted" to be skirts only (ooh, fashion!), which we know has nothing to do with core Fundie beliefs.

There was a whole lot of optimistic talk here about Alyssa using birth control when she first married.

But then she popped out sprogs 1 and 2 right on Quiverfull schedule.  She may hope that her family is limited to only 6, but there is no telling how many God will give her.  And there is no evidence she is using birth control at all.

13 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

22 minutes ago, BeccaGrim said:

How did they meet? I don't think I know.  

IIRC I think they met at a wedding.  

No, sorry.  The official Bates story (the gospel according to Kelly Jo) is that they met while Alyssa was volunteering in support of Taliban Dan's campaign.

Alyssa was and probably still is totes cool with Taliban Dan's political platform.  Which makes me shudder.

Remember, it is about core beliefs not wearing pants.  So much for Alyssa escaping Gothardism.  

 

[singsingsing]

I could have sworn they met at a wedding. I remember John talking about it. It was a mutual friend's wedding. Is it possible they met at the wedding but only interacted/got to know each other when she volunteered for his dad's campaign? I'm not sure where to look for the info at this point and I don't have the patience to search back through their old blog...

[Palimpsest]

@singsingsing, I don't have the patience either, and you could be right about the initial meeting being at a wedding.  

I'm damn sure Alyssa volunteered for Taliban Dan's campaign and that is how they got to know each other though.

[nokidsmom]

40 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

I think you have a point that Alyssa may have wanted out of the Bates family circus.  However, the only problem that I have with your theory is that she married John Webster.  The son of Taliban Dan (known Gothard lover) and probably John is someone who is as soaked in the Patriarchal kool-aid as any other Gothardite.

Agree that Alyssa got out of the family home but is still around people who are totes OK with Gothard, patriarchy and all that, meaning her husband and in law family.  John may be in every sense patriarchal as her father.    But how could it be otherwise?  Alyssa grew up with limited options.   She was to be under her controlling father, court and marry someone her father approved.  Had John not been Taliban Dan's son and grew up in a completely different family, one with no ties to Gothardism for example, Gil would have never approved it, she would have been told to forget it and move on to someone deemed more appropriate.  Gil wants his kids to marry in the cult no doubt about it, the only one who eluded this was Zach who got around parent approved courtship (and probably his parents' attention) who probably didn't think their boy would meet his future wife at a Sonic.    

35 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I could have sworn they met at a wedding. I remember John talking about it. It was a mutual friend's wedding.

This is what I remember.   Mutual friend's wedding.  Don't remember anything about her campaigning for her father in law before her marriage but she did afterward.  

[formergothardite]

According to this they met in ATI. John was raised in the cult too, his family just wore better clothes. 

Quote

John and Alyssa met through their homeschooling ATI

http://thewebsterfamblog.blogspot.com/p/webster-news.html

But on the Bates family website it says this:

Quote

Alyssa became attracted to John while helping his father, Congressman Daniel Webster, campaign for the 2012 election. 

https://thebatesfamily.com/about-family/

[nokidsmom]

Thanks for looking that up @formergothardite 

 

[Palimpsest]

2 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

But on the Bates family website it says this:

Quote

Alyssa became attracted to John while helping his father, Congressman Daniel Webster, campaign for the 2012 election. 

https://thebatesfamily.com/about-family/

Thanks so much for finding that.  Of course the gospel of Kelly Jo isn't always totally accurate!

[VBOY9977]

I just looked at a video on up tv's website from the first season of bub where they introduce the Bates. John said they met at a wedding but Alyssa doesn't remember about it. the families became friends and then she went help campaign for his dad.  She became interested then, but John had been attracted to her since the wedding