Safe at Home 2: The Continuing Adventures of The Arndts

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

I'm not up on all things Arndt.  When did Rick quit work?  Did he do it all at once or gradually as the boys began working?  

Did Rick and /or Cathy go to college?  I also find it extremely interesting that the grandfather is a professor, yet none of the kids have gone.  And since he's still alive, surely he must want great grandchildren? Given the ages of the oldest boys, if they were married, it's likely he's have several.

[Million Children For Jesus]

35 minutes ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

OMG Million Children.  Hugs from me and so glad you and your girl cousins got out.  Just in case no one else tells you -- you are a smart, brave, accomplished woman who managed to overcome a really toxic upbringing and have a full life in spite of it.

I really needed to hear this. Badly. Thank you. I usually hear that I'm a horrible, shitty daughter, and that's so awful because my poor, poor mother is so devoted to her children. How sad she has an awful, ungrateful daughter. What kind of jerk says anything about their own mother? The worst kind of jerk.

She really is a genius at manipulation. She never breaks character in public. The things she says in private, people don't even believe me. She comes off as so sweet and unassuming. Almost simple or naive.  

I did have a police officer come up to me once and whisper in my ear, "Your mom is a compulsive liar." He had gone to school with my brother, and I think he had been friends with him before my brother quit having friends, which was very young, during high school. This guy has watched the whole manipulation thing play out for 40+ years. I guess a few people might pick up on it, but certainly the majority don't, and those who do, don't usually tell me.

I'll admit that I stopped socializing in high school because I couldn't deal with the hysterics that my mom put me through when I tried to leave the house. I'm not talking about parties. I'm talking about walking to the post office or staying at school for lunch. I actually came home for lunch so my mom wouldn't worry about which friends I was with. She was always on the phone gossiping about how much she worried because of what her kids were doing. All of us kids hated family gatherings because we felt like everyone was looking at us like we were giving our mom a hard time, for things like being a cheerleader, or running for student council. (I won. Huge mistake!)

All of us girls did get married pretty young. We couldn't have friends, but we could get married. 

[MamaJunebug]

@Million Children For Jesus, welcome.

I briefly knew a fellow whose mom (RIP, please!) resembled yours.  Her sons married only after she was dead.  One was open about his reluctant agreement to remain single as long his mom was alive and "needed him."  The other - the one I was acquainted with - blackmailed his brother for wanting to get married after a VERY long engagement, before the mother died: He said, "Fine, go get married, have a little honeymoon, even! I'll stay with Mommy 24/7 and let the family business go to hell and when you get back you can clean up the mess."  I've perceived that kind of situation at the Arndts' house ever since I learned of them (the oldest boy was in his late 20s).

The thing is, the father of that family was complicit in the situation.  As long as he was catered to - which the mom did, with great flourish especially when (unwanted) guests were present - he was fine with the status quo.  And I imagine Rick is far more an active co-conspirator with Cathy.

Someone posted here, not long ago, that she'd met someone who called Cathy one of the nicest people she'd met, who had the patience of a saint back when they were acquainted and the kids were very young.  Someone else posted a bit earlier that they'd seen Cathy with Wizzie and 2 or 3 younger boys out shopping and that Cathy was a humorless, snapping tyrant.

Back to the flying penguin video.  When Cathy couldn't let Wizzie hold the danged toy for more than a few seconds, but had to grab it and hug it and pronounce in "so soffffft!", I couldn't help but think of what you'd written about your mother's attitude toward her daughters.  Competition!

~~~~~~~~~~~

Lastly, as one who seemed to support the idea of a "Midwestern sense of humor," I renege on my statement.  Humor is humor.  Lastly lastly, I'm astonished to realize I don't hear anything odd in the Arndt diction, at least on this video.

Lastly lastly lastly, I was astonished to see another house just across the gravel road from the Arndthaus.  Surely R&C were *not* happy to have somebody else's safe home so close to their safe home.  The worldly influences that might lurk!! Anyway, would give those people a gift certificate to the best café in Belleville to get their stories about the neighbors with eleventy grown kids at home

[JesusPony]

Thank you for posting Million Children For Jesus. That dynamic would actually make a lot of sense, when very little else about the Arndts does. It fits with the creepy hand-on-tummy birthday pictures. And yes, the financial situation we have suspected.   And the shorts: Cathy is as fit (more fit!) than any unworthy potential daughter-in-law would be. See these legs? Cathy will probably live to 100 and outlive several of her children. Grim. 

If one of the man-boys ever finds the courage to leave, it will be Hell On Earth on Arndtberry Farm, believe you me. Definitely film that surprise, man-boys. 

[JenniferJuniper]

4 hours ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

I'm not up on all things Arndt.  When did Rick quit work?  Did he do it all at once or gradually as the boys began working?  

Did Rick and /or Cathy go to college?  I also find it extremely interesting that the grandfather is a professor, yet none of the kids have gone.  And since he's still alive, surely he must want great grandchildren? Given the ages of the oldest boys, if they were married, it's likely he's have several.

Rick and Cathy ran a home-based court reporting business when the kids were young.  He did the court reporting; she helped with everything else related to the business.  They even sent the older boys to Catholic school for a year or so because Cathy was so busy with babies and the business.  They lived in a very crowded old house in Belleville, and it sounds like they had some seriously lean years.   They owned the land the current  house is on for a very long time - at least a decade -  before they were able to afford to break ground. 

Rick quit working as soon as a few of the oldest boys passed their tests and were able to shoulder the load. I couldn't tell you what year, but it's been a fairly long time now.  Rick will be only 61 (tomorrow I think.  He's an April Fool).  Over the years more boys were added to the steno business, while others developed photography and computer repair skills. The court reporting and wedding photo businesses appear to be doing pretty well now.

Neither went to college.   Cathy's parents owned a Tool and Die company.  It still exists and at one of her sisters is currently CFO.

[Suz8710]

Thank you for sharing your story, @Million Children For Jesus. Sometimes I'll skip over some of the stories, but yours was incredibly interesting. I'm so sorry that's your real life, but you should be so proud of yourself for getting out of there and recognizing what's going on.

I could so easily see this being at least part of the Arndt dynamic. 

[Million Children For Jesus]

On March 30, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

I had a close girlfriend who divorced her hubby, not because he was a mama's boy per se, but because her MIL was truly the other woman in their relationship. Her MIL undermined her at every turn and her husband supported his mother because 1) she was a widow and 2) he was the only boy (2 sisters) and had been "the man of the family" since he was 17. And because he was still "the man of the family" even after marriage, the MIL expected him to put the family first  It didn't help that they were mega rich and the MIL controlled the money and the family business.  It was a serious shame because my girlfriend truly loved the guy.

I had to read this to my sister. I told you my story above, with all the brothers/boy cousins still at home and most of the sisters/girl cousins marrying assholes. The ones who didn't marry assholes married really nice men who are "married" to their mothers. It's a huge problem in their marriages, and we talk about it all the time, how we all tried so hard to break certain cycles in our lives and then those patterns just reach around and bite you in the butt.

The poor Arndts. I don't know what kind of women they need. Hellfire bitches who will stand up to Ma Arndt, or passive types who will give them some emotional rest, like Jana Duggar. 

I know this sounds super optimistic, but I think one of the younger Arndt boys will break free. My older boy cousins are in cohoots to free the youngest brother. Their attitude is, we can't save ourselves, but we can save the little one. You know, the little 30-year-old. 

[Million Children For Jesus]

...

Thank you for all the support on here. Good thing for the Arndts drawing attention to this "Smotherhood" issue. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who thinks it's nuts. 

[MamaJunebug]

58 minutes ago, Million Children For Jesus said:

Smotherhood

Well put. 

[livinginthelight]

@Million Children For Jesus Thank you so much for sharing. I'm so very sorry you had to grow up in that environment. Your writing helped me to possibly better understand the Arndt family.

I keep thinking they would make a good Twilight Zone episode, maybe told from the perspective of one of the boys in the family. Where on the surface it looks like you're loved and adored and in heaven, but eventually the cold realization dawns that you're actually in hell.

 

 

 

[GeoBQn]

So basically the episode "A Nice Place to Visit," but with a penguin-loving nice man instead of a gangster.

[livinginthelight]

@Million Children For Jesus, I've been thinking a lot about your description of your family and I wonder if I could ask a question. I keep wondering if the boy/men actually think they are happy? Are these moms creating stunted-but-happy kidults? The Arndts, for instance, LOOK happy. Are they conscious of the dark corner of their minds that scream that this situation is warped and are they putting on a happy front because it's easier? Or is their denial so complete that they truly believe they are happy? Your statement about the younger cousins maybe escaping made me wonder.

*Edited to add that I realize the situation isn't either/or. Sometimes they might feel truly happy and other times, not so much. But I'm very curious about how they cope with this. And how much they realize.

[JenniferJuniper]

Skipping past "happy" for a moment, how can they not be bored out of their minds?  Five sons are in their 30's - the oldest is 37 this year - and their lives haven't changed since they were young children, save for the fact that they now work for the FamTeam collective.

The penguins may get bigger, the toys - like the drone - may get more sophisticated, but trying to imagine living their lives, I can only feel oppressive boredom and restlessness.   At least one son in his 30's is still sharing a small bedroom near his parents' room with 3 or 4 younger brothers and the four older than he are sharing the attic.  Lying in that bunk bed at night, how can one not think "Where is this going?  Will I be here at 40?  At 50?  Is my life going to be all about my brothers forever?"

You can take a peek at their Facebook friends and see that they have first cousins with perfectly normal lives.  Living apart from parents, college, parties, girl/boyfriends, spouses. Beer and wine!  I know they were raised to feel superior to all this, but as the hairlines recede and Mom and Dad head into their sunset years, how can they not at least wonder about what they might be missing?

Most other fundie families are pretty transparent and it's easy to spot and understand how the dysfunction developed and is sustained.    The Arndts on the other hand are an endlessly fascinating puzzle.  But something has to give one of these days.  No one stays healthy or lives forever and one gets the sense that any change in the dynamic is likely to leave the lot of them reeling. 

 

[Fascinated]

I sort of, kind of, a teensy bit understand why Cathy wants her boys at home with her. I really like my boys, too.  They are nice and interesting and funny as hell.  I'm sure lots of parents feel this way.  Who among us wouldn't say that our kids are our favourite people?

But I know that I am their mother and not their friend. I know, and have always known, that our job as parents is to raise our kids to be happy, healthy, productive and independent adults.  That is our job. If we do that well, we will be able to have a wonderful, appropriate and, yes, loving relationship with them (and their spouses and children). It's pretty basic. Why anyone would desire stunted adult children with no lives outside the family is beyond me.  That would be devastating to me knowing we had fucked up that badly. 

[Million Children For Jesus]

39 minutes ago, livinginthelight said:

keep wondering if the boy/men actually think they are happy? Are these moms creating stunted-but-happy kidults? 

My cousins are happy enough, but not as happy as they could be. They have enough to be happy about, (jobs they like, no debt, safe cars, spending cash, health insurance), but if they felt they had a choice, I'm sure they would change things. They love their parents, but they feel obligated, stifled and drained. Some cope better than others. The older ones are starting to crumble. The younger ones are still hanging in there. One, the oldest, who used to be fun, has become reclusive and irritable. My brothers are miserable and reclusive. They didn't start out like that. They were all cheerful, fun kids.

Keep in mind. We are older than the Arndts. The oldest Arndt is 37. We range from 30-50, with the majority being 40-49. My cousins were still mostly, genuinely, happy at age 37. 40 is when things start to shift and the permanence and gravity of the situation starts to become very real and depressing. Believe it or not, the "they're helping their parents for a little while" thing really did seem temporary when it started. Then all of a sudden, our  30's were gone, and the boys started questioning what they could have done different, and what they missed.

The Arndts are at the cut off. Something needs to give in the immediate future. 

Are my cousins sick of their mom's crap? Yes. Do they confront her? No. Nobody wants to upset the balance. 

[Tiny Bubbles]

I watched the whole video.  

Why was Ma Atndt asking if they still had all their toes -  was this an in-joke? Why did the camera go to their shoes in response to her question??  And what was that about rip tides ? Huh? 

These guys are definitely sheltered and nerdy.  That doesn't bother me. It takes all kinds, right? 

But I think I'd be truly nervous around Ma.   Once the penguin arrived this video was mostly about Ma, I'd say. This is just an instant impression and what do I know - but that's not a healthy dynamic right there. 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

1 hour ago, Tiny Bubbles said:

I watched the whole video.  

Why was Ma Atndt asking if they still had all their toes -  was this an in-joke? Why did the camera go to their shoes in response to her question??  And what was that about rip tides ? Huh?

Didn't I hear one of the "boys" say something about going swimming in the ocean in Florida at the beginning of the video? And I thought I heard Cathy, or someone else, say something about sharks right before the toes question. I watched it yesterday, so I may be remembering wrong.

[katilac]

On 3/30/2017 at 1:17 PM, quiversR4hunting said:

I think that is true of all the fundies. 

I think it's true of many fundies, but I have trouble thinking of Michelle or Priscilla as the brains of any operation. 

[Palimpsest]

On 3/30/2017 at 2:17 PM, quiversR4hunting said:

I think that is true of all the fundies. The women say they are submissive with doe eyes (Kelly, Me'chelle, Anna, Pris), defer to their husband's ministry (Pris, J'Rod & Zsu), give ego strokes to the husband and humble brag at their own submission (Lori & Debi Pearl), I think behind the scenes all the women are pulling the strings. It seems more women are more religious than men (I don't have a study to back that up but it just seems like women seem to pull the men to church more than vice versa).

I think it is true of some Fundies. Sometimes the women do drive the bus towards religiousity and submission.  Jen Fishburne would bear that out - although her "submission" had plenty of strings attached.  Zsu is a special case.  The FSM only knows why she hitched her wagon to Anderson's dark and evil star.  A small part of me still hopes that Zsu will come to her senses - although I doubt she ever will.

I don't think it is true of ALL Fundies, and especially the second generation.  The Priscillas of this world are raised to be victims.

We also have plenty of anecdotal evidence that men self-select into the Patriarchy - because it is a magnet for the people who want to abuse women and children.

[JenniferJuniper]

34 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

I think it is true of some Fundies. Sometimes the women do drive the bus towards religiousity and submission.  Jen Fishburne would bear that out - although her "submission" had plenty of strings attached.  Zsu is a special case.  The FSM only knows why she hitched her wagon to Anderson's dark and evil star.  A small part of me still hopes that Zsu will come to her senses - although I doubt she ever will.

I don't think it is true of ALL Fundies, and especially the second generation.  The Priscillas of this world are raised to be victims.

We also have plenty of anecdotal evidence that men self-select into the Patriarchy - because it is a magnet for the people who want to abuse women and children.

To the bolded, I think this is exactly why some men gravitate towards patriarchy. They love the idea of the power over women and children and they use the bible to support what they crave - a woman is to be nothing more than a submissive helpmeet and children are arrows in their quiver.  Their property to have and to hold and to use and abuse as they see fit.  Rick has been using and abusing his kids for years for his own benefit.  His wife works like a dog while he sits around musing all day and playing softball every night.

So the women are usually more interesting because their motivations are harder to understand.  In the case of the Arndts this bus is not being driven by Cathy, IMO.   I think she came from an uber Catholic family, which is why she ended up with so many kids, and that as Rick began to morph into whatever Rick is, she never put her foot down and went along with it all.  Do I think she's happy to have all her kids around her?  Absolutely, and she treats them like the stunted Peter Pans that they are, feeding into whatever craziness Rick has foisted on them.  But I think it ultimately is mostly Rick's doing.  He loves the idea of a FamTeam that has to admire him, listen attentively to his sermons, and works for him and only him.

 

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

Million Children, continued hugs for extracting yourself from the toxic family situation.

Am I correct in assuming your "Father and Uncle of the Stunted Sons" are both living? What is their take on the situation?  Do they just let the wives do what they do without comment -- not upsetting the balance I believe you said? Don't they want their sons out of the house and launched into their own lives?  Don't they want grandchildren?

Or is the lure of the money coming into the house just too strong?

Back in the day in my small southern town men who lived with their mamas were considered such nice boys, but after a certain age -- 40 or so -- there was also the strong suspicion they were gay. Of course the town also wondered the same thing about unmarried women who lived with and took care of parents. Has it never occurred to your mother and aunt that in addition to people thinking to your brothers/cousins being such nice boys, that it might look odd to other people that a bunch of over 40 men still live at home?

Absolutely positively not casting shade on your brothers, cousins, unmarried men, unmarried women, gay people or anyone -- but neighbors do talk and wonder. At least they did in my hometown.

[Million Children For Jesus]

12 minutes ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

Am I correct in assuming your "Father and Uncle of the Stunted Sons" are both living? What is their take on the situation?  Do they just let the wives do what they do without comment -- not upsetting the balance I believe you said? Don't they want their sons out of the house and launched into their own lives?  Don't they want grandchildren?

Both living.

They don't have a take. Not allowed. Only my mom and aunt have opinions and feelings. We all respond to their feelings. If someone goes rogue and has their own feeling, they are deemed a selfish asshole for not thinking about my mom and aunt. 

Secretly, or not so secretly, my dad hates my brothers and thinks they should get the F out, but my mom would never allow it.

My uncle loves his sons and enjoys their company. My cousins also love their dad and take pride in helping him as he ages. 

I don't think either one ever wanted grandchildren. The last thing they need is more kids around for my mom and aunt to micromanage. They have grandchildren from their daughters, and they're only as involved as their wives force them to be. They're both worn out, and would have been just as happy without grandchildren.

1 hour ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

Or is the lure of the money coming into the house just too strong?

My uncle needs financial help, and so my boy cousins work. My uncle always worked multiple jobs to support his large family, but never got ahead. 

My dad is wealthy. My brothers don't work. My mom is able to have 100% full control and keep them dependent because she can afford it.

It is better to have a poor dad in this situation. 

1 hour ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

Back in the day in my small southern town men who lived with their mamas were considered such nice boys, but after a certain age -- 40 or so -- there was also the strong suspicion they were gay

This happened. One neighbor implied one of my brothers was gay and someone else directly asked him. Being from a very conservative family, it horrified my mother and offended my brother. Of course, she turned it around that they were filthy, weird people to think about such things as gayness. Lol.

My daughter is gay and I'm pretty sure my youngest cousin is, too. We have point blank told my parents about my daughter and my mom called me a mean, hateful liar. Um. Okay. Only I'm not. Nobody would dare say anything to my aunt. She would have a stroke.

[Million Children For Jesus]

1 hour ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

Has it never occurred to your mother and aunt that in addition to people thinking to your brothers/cousins being such nice boys, that it might look odd to other people that a bunch of over 40 men still live at home?

Nope. They think it looks like they are nice boys who love their mom and never got lucky to find the right girl, or they say it helps everybody financially. Win-Win. That's for my cousins. People think my brothers are derelicts and my mom is the gracious martyr who supports them. She gets praised out the wazoo. They both do. My aunt for her nice boys and my mom for her martyrdom. 

1 hour ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

Million Children, continued hugs for extracting yourself from the toxic family situation.

Thank you one million times. It's something I have to work on every single day. My ex-husband called it, "tapes in your head." Luckily, his parents adopted me and promised to give me new tapes, which they did. 

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

Sorry to ask all these questions Million Children.

Your brothers don't work? At all? Never? No college?  Just graduated high school and stayed home? Did your mother force them not to work?  How did she accomplish that? Did any of them ever try to get a job or actually get one?  Did she sabotage it?

And I have to ask this -- are you from the South? Because seriously this sounds so much like the crazy things that happen in southern towns.

[livinginthelight]

Million Children, I just want to say, I think you are awesome. It takes so much courage to speak up for the truth, especially when your whole family is against you.