Anna and the M Kids Pt 9: M5 Expected

[Million Children For Jesus]

2 hours ago, Gobbles said:

I always thought US people were joking when they told me that they are XX% German.  I had no idea that testing like this is apparently a huge thing in the US. 

It's a big deal to most Americans to know their heritage since none of us, sans real Native Americans, originally came from here. You will hear people say they are German if they are 12% German, and only call themselves German-American if they were born in Germany with residency here. Seems kind-of backwards. 

[guitar_villain]

4 hours ago, Coy Koi said:

How similar were yours and your brother's results? My sister did an Ancestry.com test, so I don't know if it would be worth it for me to do one as well. She didn't really have any surprises. The Native American ancestry my dad's side pretended to have was apparently a myth, but I guess that's par for the course. The Jewish ancestry my mom's side thought they might have didn't show up either. Her results were all European except a chance of a tiny amount of Middle Eastern ancestry (which we'd never heard a word of from anyone). I always think about doing one of these tests but it would probably be more interesting to do it for my daughter, since she is multiracial and not much is known about her paternal grandfather's ancestry. He's African American but her dad claims he's part Chinese (and they do have Asian-looking eyes), but you never know. He claims a lot of questionable things as facts.

My adopted multiracial kids learned a lot about their backgrounds from their tests, and I think it helped them ground themselves a bit.  We knew the birth mothers' backgrounds and those were basically correct, but knew nothing about their fathers.  We weren't even sure my younger was black since honestly he looks far more Samoan than anything else.

Turns out they both are African, from groups that were fairly close geographically and who probably came over during the slave trade.  No Native American despite a lot of interbreeding between the groups, and no Pacific Islander at all.

It was also helpful to run their results through Promethease to get some idea of any possible health issues.  The most amusing bit was that it correctly pegged my youngest as a morning person

[Carm_88]

I go back and forth on doing the DNA test. Realistically, I already kinda know what my ancestry is; my 3x Great Grandfather came here from Kilkenny and my 3x great grandmother came from Tipperary. My genes will be strongly Irish, though my mother's maiden name came from England. It would be interesting to see what percentage though. 

[singsingsing]

4 minutes ago, MayMay1123 said:

so does the 23andme test show if someone has a specific medical gene (i'm asking specifically if it shows a cf gene)? when daughter found she had the gene and son in law did a blood test to see if he had it, it cost $800...23andme is certainly cheaper.

It does, but I'd still go with a test from an actual doctor/geneticist. I love genetic genealogy, it's a hobby of mine and I think it's a great thing to have fun with - and it has actually helped hundreds if not thousands of people solve family mysteries, including adoptees - but it's still a novelty. It's just for fun. I don't believe the results can, and imo shouldn't be used for anything 'official'. Certainly not to prove you're a certain race or ethnicity in any kind of official capacity, and not to diagnose yourself with anything.

I'd say that commercial DNA testing is fantastic for helping to solve genealogical puzzles and mysteries, fun for getting a broad snapshot of your ethnic origins, and I'd say proceed with extreme caution when it comes to medical results.

[Million Children For Jesus]

My great-grandmother grew up in an Apache orphanage, so it was assumed she was at least half Apache. We have family on two reservations, I've been to all the cultural events, and I look at least part Apache. Incidentally, her father was a dead ringer for Judd Hirsch, but with a nice tan, and her mother was white. They weren't allowed to raise her in either community, so that's how she ended up in the orphanage. We checked our DNA and it came back Jewish! Not Native American at all. Of course, Judd Hirsch is also Jewish, so maybe we should have seen those results coming. Not sure when or how Great Great-Grandpa decided passing as an Apache was working out for him, but I guess it makes sense. My guess is that it had something to do with the area being extremely Catholic and that's how he assimilated. I just wish I could have been a fly on the wall watching that whole shenanigan transpire. 

ETA: I still catch myself saying I'm Apache, and I would feel like a liar saying I'm Jewish. It's a weird thing to undo. Sometimes, I just leave out both because I'm not sure what to say.

[candygirl200413]

I always like reading about others finding others backgrounds!

Both my parents who came from the same eastern african country (making me first generation american) can be traced in 2 different parts of land 45 minutes apart. So when me and my siblings went back in 08 we were able to see where our ancestry started which as I gotten older have finally realized how much I've taken it for granted since many, especially african americans have no idea where they came.

[elvirajane]

1 hour ago, singsingsing said:

certainly too low to express itself in her phenotype,

huh? You don't need a threshold number of genes to get into her phenotype. 

[singsingsing]

23 minutes ago, Million Children For Jesus said:

My great-grandmother grew up in an Apache orphanage, so it was assumed she was at least half Apache. We have family on two reservations, I've been to all the cultural events, and I look at least part Apache. Incidentally, her father was a dead ringer for Judd Hirsch, but with a nice tan, and her mother was white. They weren't allowed to raise her in either community, so that's how she ended up in the orphanage. We checked our DNA and it came back Jewish! Not Native American at all. Of course, Judd Hirsch is also Jewish, so maybe we should have seen those results coming. Not sure when or how Great Great-Grandpa decided passing as an Apache was working out for him, but I guess it makes sense. My guess is that it had something to do with the area being extremely Catholic and that's how he assimilated. I just wish I could have been a fly on the wall watching that whole shenanigan transpire. 

ETA: I still catch myself saying I'm Apache, and I would feel like a liar saying I'm Jewish. It's a weird thing to undo. Sometimes, I just leave out both because I'm not sure what to say.

You're a perfect example of the vast limitations of these tests, and the reason why they should not be used to qualify or disqualify anyone as belonging to any particular group! It sounds like your great-great-grandpa was accepted as Apache by the Apache community, and that your great-grandma grew up in that culture. There's a reason tribes don't accept DNA results for membership. It's absolutely possible to be a member of a group via adoption, marriage, etc. rather than DNA. In fact, DNA (in the context of these tests) is just looking at patterns common to certain groups of people who inhabited certain areas at one time. It's basically telling you, "Your DNA matches about 17% with what we've discovered people from X region tend to show." 

In the 18th and 19th century, many Irish people married French Canadians, and many more Irish orphans were adopted into French Canadian families. They were raised French, and the majority of them forgot their Irish heritage. Depending on the location

 and random chance, it's possible that a few generations later you could have French Canadians who were actually mostly of Irish descent - and yet culturally speaking, they were 100% French Canadian! 

The tests are a lot of fun, and they can rule out certain things at a broad level (I remember one particular woman who was adopted and raised believing she was part Native American, but her test came back 50% Japanese, and she went on to discover that her birth father was, in fact, Japanese) - they can also provide clues ("Hmm, my test came back 25% Jewish, maybe that rumour about Grandpa So-and-So was right"). But they absolutely cannot define your identity! Reality is far messier than that!

1 minute ago, elvirajane said:

huh? You don't need a threshold number of genes to get into her phenotype. 

Yes, you do, to the extent that you would be able to draw a conclusion about their ethnicity (which is another issue altogether). 

[send*the*ferrets]

11 minutes ago, elvirajane said:

huh? You don't need a threshold number of genes to get into her phenotype. 

You do- you know only get 50% of your genes from a given parent, so your genes from your great great great great great grandparent would be very diluted and possibly not even present. 

[Four is Enough]

I think it would be very interesting to test my entire family, meaning mine, Mr. Four, and the Four.

Mr. Four claims almost exclusively Polish heritage, with at least three grandparents off the boat from Poland, I'd like to see how close he is.

I've always been told Irish/German/Scottish/French and there are names in the family tree to uphold these claims. My surname is German.

One: Some more Irish, very heavy. Some German on the birth father's side.. 

Two: Off the boat two generations Irish, BUT the birth father has always claimed a "drop" of Pima Indian blood. I'd love to see if that is true.

Three and Four: some German heritage, and their birth name was German.

The melting pot in one family, practically. At least the european side of it.

[singsingsing]

I think I've said pretty much everything I can say on the subject, and maybe repeated myself a few times over, so I'll bow out of the conversation for now. I will say that commercial DNA testing allowed me to solve a huge family mystery (but not via the ethnicity component!), and it was worth testing just for that. The ethnicity part is fun. The medical part should be (in my opinion) treated with great caution. If anyone wants to know more about my experiences with these tests, feel free to PM me. But right now I have a pressing appointment with Zelda. 

[elvirajane]

21 minutes ago, send*the*ferrets said:

You do- you know only get 50% of your genes from a given parent, so your genes from your great great great great great grandparent would be very diluted and possibly not even present. 

But even a "very diluted" genome from a great great ... ancestor can have effects on your phenotype if the few regions that you inherited happen to code for things that influence your looks.

[Million Children For Jesus]

42 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

You're a perfect example of the vast limitations of these tests, and the reason why they should not be used to qualify or disqualify anyone as belonging to any particular group! It sounds like your great-great-grandpa was accepted as Apache by the Apache community, and that your great-grandma grew up in that culture. There's a reason tribes don't accept DNA results for membership. It's absolutely possible to be a member of a group via adoption, marriage, etc. rather than DNA. In fact, DNA (in the context of these tests) is just looking at patterns common to certain groups of people who inhabited certain areas at one time. It's basically telling you, "Your DNA matches about 17% with what we've discovered people from X region tend to show." 

In the 18th and 19th century, many Irish people married French Canadians, and many more Irish orphans were adopted into French Canadian families. They were raised French, and the majority of them forgot their Irish heritage. Depending on the location

 and random chance, it's possible that a few generations later you could have French Canadians who were actually mostly of Irish descent - and yet culturally speaking, they were 100% French Canadian! 

The tests are a lot of fun, and they can rule out certain things at a broad level (I remember one particular woman who was adopted and raised believing she was part Native American, but her test came back 50% Japanese, and she went on to discover that her birth father was, in fact, Japanese) - they can also provide clues ("Hmm, my test came back 25% Jewish, maybe that rumour about Grandpa So-and-So was right"). But they absolutely cannot define your identity! Reality is far messier than that!

Yes, you do, to the extent that you would be able to draw a conclusion about their ethnicity (which is another issue altogether). 

I love that you used the Irish/French Canadian example because that's the other side of my family! My dad is Irish, Quebecois, and German. He's much more Irish than German or Quebecois, but he qualifies for a German citizenship through a heritage Visa. We eat almost exclusively German food, even though we don't live in a German area. It's weird what things get passed on to the next generation. Like fry bread and pow-wows from the Jewish side, haha! 

ETA: You're correct about Great Grandma. Culturally, she lived 100% Apache. 

[MarblesMom]

3 hours ago, WhoompThereItIs said:

Even though her ancestry DNA results say she is 0% native american, my mom still insists her grandmother was part Seminole - "she was light-skinned and had long straight hair!"

OMG THIS.  My uncle and I both did the DNA testing (and I know I have shared this story before, but I am old, so bear with  me for repeating....) - he INSISTS we have NA blood.  "I saw a picture of great grandpa and he had a head dress on."  NO ONE in the family has EVER seen this picture, btw.

Not only have I documented our family back to at least the Mayflower, and no one ever admitted to being NA on a census, now we have proof positive in two DNA tests.  His response:  "Those DNA tests aren't accurate."   SMH.   

[Greendoor]

8 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

That's the thing for me too, I'm not sure just how accurate they are. I guess some inaccuracies is better than not knowing at all. 

(P.S You may have relatives buried near Drumheller, Alberta!  ) 

I did 23 and me, then got my son to do it.

 

It is FABULOUS!  I found one old family rumour confirmed.   One newer rumour dispelled (we never thought it was real anyway).

 

 

[Chickenbutt]

Just a side note here.....Mr. Butt, my mother and I have all done AncestryDNA. Mr. Butt got an email yesterday from them asking if he would give his permission for AncestryDNA to give/sell his sample to others, among them insurance companies, research companies etc for their use. He declined. He is concerned about insurance companies using his DNA to  deny kids/grandkids insurance coverage in the future should his/my mothers/my DNA shows any inheritable medical issues.

After he told me about it, I googled it and found some very interesting information in both AncestryDNA and 23andme terms of service. You essentially give them carte blanche to do whatever they want with your DNA and relieve them of all responsibility. And you must check the agree box to submit your DNA.

Take this for what it is worth.

ETA: Here is an interesting article

https://dna-explained.com/2015/12/30/23andme-ancestry-and-selling-your-dna-information/

 

[Jaedzia]

I've been wanting to do this 23andme or AncestryDNA test for a long time. We only know my father's father side back to the 1840s. We barely know my father's mother side. We barely know anything on my mother's mother side. We know nothing on my mother's father side. I am told I am German/Austrian/French-Canadian/English. The English is hear-say. My mother was told by her grandfather and step-grandmother that that is what her father was. She never knew her father. I did some research and found out that my German maiden name was a last name that was common among German Jews. No one knows if anyone was Jewish in our family, but with names like Jacob, Adam, Mary, and many other Old Testament names in the family I do wonder. Many of us also have the famous "Jewish nose".  lol  I'm grateful I have these papers with the names of my father's father line. Its something.  

[scoutsadie]

3 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

Realistically, I already kinda know what my ancestry is; my 3x Great Grandfather came here from Kilkenny and my 3x great grandmother came from Tipperary. My genes will be strongly Irish, though my mother's maiden name came from England. It would be interesting to see what percentage though. 

You know everyone has 16 great-great-great grandparents, right? So there's a lot you may not know about them, if you only know about one set!

[Carm_88]

14 minutes ago, scoutsadie said:

You know everyone has 16 great-great-great grandparents, right? So there's a lot you may not know about them, if you only know about one set!

Oh I well know that but considering my last name goes back for generations in Ireland and my area was populated by Irish immigrants. I'm pretty sure I have a good idea where my roots lie.  

ET: I'm from Newfoundland. A safe assumption is verrrry Irish with a mix of Irish and a touch of Irish. I am from the Irish Loop after all. 

[MarblesMom]

I was all impressed I was related to a guy on the Mayflower, until I realized my PawPawPaw has about a million descendants.  Gah... I am not so special anymore.  Footstomp and pouty face.

@Carm_88 we went to Mr MM's Irish ancestral county, EVERYONE had the same last name.  It was awesome and odd at the same time.  We could not find his connection in historical documents, sadly, as it was ancestor's name was common as John Smith and his relative lied about his age on EVERY census.  The people at the library apologized.  

But, it was still cool to walk the same land his ancestors did.

We still drank Guinness and met some awesome people and had a lovely time.

[Carm_88]

3 minutes ago, MarblesMom said:

I was all impressed I was related to a guy on the Mayflower, until I realized my PawPawPaw has about a million descendants.  Gah... I am not so special anymore.  Footstomp and pouty face.

@Carm_88 we went to Mr MM's Irish ancestral county, EVERYONE had the same last name.  It was awesome and odd at the same time.  We could not find his connection in historical documents, sadly, as it was ancestor's name was common as John Smith and his relative lied about his age on EVERY census.  The people at the library apologized.  

But, it was still cool to walk the same land his ancestors did.

We still drank Guinness and met some awesome people and had a lovely time.

And most of them have the same first name as well to make it all that much more confusing.  

[RabbitKM]

4 hours ago, guitar_villain said:

 The most amusing bit was that it correctly pegged my youngest as a morning person

It can do that?!

[luxfilia]

I think this show is often full of crap, but I do find this recent episode relevant and noteworthy.  They're identical triplets and got results with more variation than you'd covet/want:

Spoiler

http://www.thedoctorstv.com/articles/3863-the-triplets-put-ancestry-kits-to-the-test

ETA: I swear I typed "expect," but auto-correct strikes again. Kinda felt like "covet" was fitting though, so I'll leave it.

[guitar_villain]

24 minutes ago, RabbitKM said:

It can do that?!

Yes, there a SNP that's linked- https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs7221412(A;A)

He has both copies.  The actual effect here isn't certain -it's at the "Interesting enough to keep reading" level but that's not by any means a sure thing.  That said, he absolutely is a morning person.  My older son has one copy and is absolutely not.

[PreciousPantsofDoom]

2 hours ago, Chickenbutt said:

 I googled it and found some very interesting information in both AncestryDNA and 23andme terms of service. You essentially give them carte blanche to do whatever they want with your DNA and relieve them of all responsibility. And you must check the agree box to submit your DNA.

Take this for what it is worth.

ETA: Here is an interesting article

https://dna-explained.com/2015/12/30/23andme-ancestry-and-selling-your-dna-information/

 

See, that is what has me extremely leery of doing one of those tests. I don't like the idea that they have my DNA results to do whatever they want with.  Sure, they say they will be anonymized, but mistakes happen, policies change, and sometimes companies, or their employees, do things they said they wouldn't do. I guess I'm just too paranoid to take the risk for something like this that would be just out of curiosity. 

The other thing that puts me off are those annoying Ancestry ads where the person says she found out she is part Eastern European.  Makes it sound like Eastern Europe is all one big country and all one ethnicity.  I have the same problem with the ad where the woman is all excited to find out she is part Native American because she can start learning about her heritage.  Which is gonna be a pretty big challenge since she doesn't seem to realize how many different cultures that general term encompasses. 

2 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

 

ET: I'm from Newfoundland. A safe assumption is verrrry Irish with a mix of Irish and a touch of Irish. I am from the Irish Loop after all. 

Newfoundland!  We had a vacation there a couple of years ago and loved it!  Drove the Irish Loop too. It was beautiful and people were friendly.  I even liked the cods tongues!   One of these days we are going back (its a long way from the West Coast) to see more.