Jinger and Jeremy: She's in Shorts?!

[calimojo]

5 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

And maybe Jinger wears certain articles of clothing because her headship Jeremy likes her to.

Ben listens to Christian hip hop and loves it. And he's still a fundie. Jill married a guy who went to university, has only one sibling, and whose mother wears pants. Still fundies. Josh started wearing shorts after he got married. Well, I guess Josh took more than a few baby steps away from fundamentalism, but they were in the wrong direction...

Nobody is saying Jinger is no longer a fundie.  That is literally all she knows.  I don't personally think that Jeremy gave "jinger' permission to wear shorts.  His own mom and sister wear shorts.  If Jinger still wanted to wear duggar style stuff, I am sure he would be fine with that.  I don't see him as being that kind of controlling. 

At most, he probably has just given her encouragement to experiment with her clothing style. 

We all pretty much know that Jeremy holds many of the same rigid and offensive beliefs as JB and M.  No one has implied that he doesn't. 

 

 

[luxfilia]

2 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

The same reason she has done everything since she got married, because her headship wanted it. Jeremy already posted a video of a sermon where he said that he doesn't care about wearing pants or drinking wine. So Jinger has his permission. Do you think she would do it if she didn't? 

No, I don't. But that still didn't get to my specific question. Did she do it simply because Jeremy WANTS it/demands it/is turned on by it, as some have implied? Or does Jinger herself want it and always did (and CAN act on it, of course, only because her "headship" is okay with it, I think that's always a given)? I'm just interested in her own psychology/inner feelings about this. You may say she has none, but she is human. Just because she doesn't display any feelings about it certainly doesn't mean her conscience doesn't plague her with thoughts about these things. She's no Jill; I believe Jinger is more of a thinker and quite emotional. Remember her crying in that bizarre way at Jessa's rehearsal dinner. 

[VelociRapture]

1 minute ago, luxfilia said:

Is anyone saying they aren't still fundies? I think people just enjoy discussing the changes. For instance, you make good points: Does Jeremy like her in shorts? Or did she always want to wear shorts, but JB forbid it (not that that makes her less "fundie"? OR, did she wear shorts/pants all along, but it was never captured on camera/video (except perhaps the old track pants pic shared above)? I'm curious about the "whys." 

There have been posters questioning if the attire means she's "free" now. So yes, there are posters who seem to believe they are no longer fundamentalists because of pictures like this. And that idea does need to be corrected.

The "whys" you mentioned seem perfectly reasonable to wonder about. I do think it's very likely that she received permission in some form from Jeremy to dress that way. 

3 minutes ago, Captain Obvious said:

Also, bear in mind that Jessa may not have had much choice - not sure if the modesty swimwear would have fitted her while pregnant.

So I do give Jinger some points for this but I'm still not popping the champagne yet.

After all - it's really just the continuation of what looks to be a move away from fundamentalism but is only really a move away from Gothardism. 

But it's not. Many posters have stated here and elsewhere that the attire standards followed by the Duggars and Bateses were more of a suggestion that very few families still follow. Many IBLP families allow females to wear pants now - for instance, Ashley Sayler and her family all wear pants. And I believe Marjorie Jackson (Josiah's ex) and her family wear pants too.

[Kira]

Does anyone remember a photo of Joy wearing shorts in Central America? I could be wrong.

There are very good reasons for the pessimism of some poster. Jinger(and Alyssa) is not the first fundie to do this. I can count on one hand the number of fundies(IBLP, VF or whatever) that are skirts only. The Duggars(and Bates) are behind. I don't think I've ever seen the Duggars friend Laura, who works for IBLP, in a skirt. 

 

I'm happy I came to FJ when I did. I got to follow so many families and see the all kinds of fundies. I think it's great when fundie kids make their own decisions, but I've seen this lead to nothing substantial so many times. Also , I stand by what I said a few months ago. I predict the Duggars women will start wearing pants etc. I don't know when, but I don't expect them to be skirts only for long. I wouldn't be surprised if they wear pants in private.

 

 

[singsingsing]

1 minute ago, calimojo said:

Nobody is saying Jinger is no longer a fundie.  That is literally all she knows.  I don't personally think that Jeremy gave "jinger' permission to wear shorts.  His own mom and sister wear shorts.  If Jinger still wanted to wear duggar style stuff, I am sure he would be fine with that.  I don't see him as being that kind of controlling. 

At most, he probably has just given her encouragement to experiment with her clothing style. 

We all pretty much know that Jeremy holds many of the same rigid and offensive beliefs as JB and M.  No one has implied that he doesn't. 

 

 

Plenty of people have implied that, actually. There are people posting here who have an extremely rosy and unrealistic view of Jeremy (and by extension, Jinger) and who obviously haven't been following fundies long enough to have a healthy dose of skepticism about stuff like this. If you know they're still fundies, my words are in no way directed at you.

[luxfilia]

2 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Yes, there are people rejoicing that Jinger wearing shorts is a sure sign of her impending freedom from fundiedom. That's what I'm arguing against, not being excited that she's wearing shorts. I'm excited that she's wearing shorts too! I think it's great!

Really, it's a moot point. Let people believe the shorts means she's going rogue. If they're wrong, they'll figure it out sooner or later. If they're right I'll rejoice along with them. Personally I'm guessing she'll be more or less another Alyssa Bates. Time will tell.

I don't think she's going rogue at all. I did see ONE commenter who seemed over-enthused/hopeful, so maybe I missed other comments that were predicted big religious/political/social changes form Jinger because of this?  I thought I read every page, but maybe I was scanning more than I realize. 

Just because people are commenting on the shorts (most people are pretty neutral or just kind of surprised), doesn't mean they are predicting a move away from fundiedom.

[VelociRapture]

Just need to say that I hate Jinger wearing shorts - simply because the "pants and fundie beliefs" debate has now spilled out of the Bates threads and into the Duggar forum. Not cool Jing. Not cool at all.

[Carm_88]

1 minute ago, luxfilia said:

No, I don't. But that still didn't get to my specific question. Did she do it simply because Jeremy WANTS it/demands it/is turned on by it, as some have implied? Or does Jinger herself want it and always did (and CAN act on it, of course, only because her "headship" is okay with it, I think that's always a given)? I'm just interested in her own psychology/inner feelings about this. You may say she has none, but she is human. Just because she doesn't display any feelings about it certainly doesn't mean her conscience doesn't plague her with thoughts about these things. She's no Jill; I believe Jinger is more of a thinker and quite emotional. Remember her crying in that bizarre way at Jessa's rehearsal dinner. 

Her psychology is that since she was born, she was trained by her parents to act a certain way. She grew up and was taught to supress all thoughts and feelings. Jeremy comes along and she does a 360 toward being more normal. Did she want to wear shorts? Maybe but the underlying thing is that it because Jeremy wants it. Jinger's been trained to defer to Jeremy, Jinger emotion at Jessa's wedding was that she was not worthy. It was the saddest thing that I have ever seen. Jinger follows Jeremy as Jill has to follow Derick even though she's miserable. 

[unicorncastle]

16 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

And maybe Jinger wears certain articles of clothing because her headship Jeremy likes her to.

1

I wear certain articles of clothing because my wife likes me too. I'm not seeing the difference here. 

[calimojo]

Think what you want, but I don't think anyone on here seriously equates shorts with a break from fundie land.  I think it is just hyperbole and perhaps a bit of excitement at seeing even a small and likely meaningless symbol of a break from JB. 

I think a lot of the reaction is the fun we have in seeing the kids do something specifically that we know their parents probably don't like.  I love seeing Spud with curls because I remember how eager Michelle was to bald poor Izzy when she visited in CA.   I love seeing Jinger in shorts, because I think back to what that horrible excuse for a mother said about girls needing to dress modestly or they are basically inviting sexual assault.  Saying this mind you while her sexual predator son is sitting barely 10 feet from his victims. 

 

So I may choose to believe that Jinger's public wearing of shorts is a teeny tiny FU to Michelle then I will do that.  But I am pretty sure she didn't join the International women's day events, and start donating to planned parenthood. 

 

[singsingsing]

2 minutes ago, unicorncastle said:

I wear certain articles of clothing because my wife likes me too. I'm not seeing the difference here. 

Really? Are you a fundamentalist? Were you raised to be subservient to your future spouse? Are you under her authority? Are you expected by her, your family, and the rest of your community to obey her orders?

[MarblesMom]

10 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Yes, there are people rejoicing that Jinger wearing shorts is a sure sign of her impending freedom from fundiedom.

Wearing shorts is not a sign of shunning her religious cult upbringing.  

This is probably a case of Mr V being a leg man.

[Pasta]

I'm happy for her.  I'm happy for people finding themselves outside of their parents.  It can be difficult regardless of religion.  

First, tank tops and now shorts. If she starts dressing like Alyssa, I'll be very impressed.  Fashion impresses me though because I'm tshirt and jeans.  

[luxfilia]

6 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

There have been posters questioning if the attire means she's "free" now. So yes, there are posters who seem to believe they are no longer fundamentalists because of pictures like this. And that idea does need to be corrected.

The "whys" you mentioned seem perfectly reasonable to wonder about. I do think it's very likely that she received permission in some form from Jeremy to dress that way. 

But it's not. Many posters have stated here and elsewhere that the attire standards followed by the Duggars and Bateses were more of a suggestion that very few families still follow. Many IBLP families allow females to wear pants now - for instance, Ashley Sayler and her family all wear pants. And I believe Marjorie Jackson (Josiah's ex) and her family wear pants too.

Wow, I definitely did miss some comments then, sorry. I did not see anyone questioning whether she is now free. Hopefully they were being sarcastic? 

Yes, so many fundies wear pants. I know some in real life, too. :-O I guess permission means it's something she CAN do, but is not being FORCED to do. I could see her wanting to change up her fashion and being happy that Jeremy was more laid-back about that part of their religion.

SNARK AHEAD:
But, because Jeremy still kinda creeps me out, I could also see him picking out the shorts and INSISTING she wear them (or at least flirtaciously imploring her). He did pick out a meek Barbie doll, if you want to look at it as pessimistically as probably called for. And he says he loves fashion, right?

The outfit looked like something you could wear golfing, which makes me think of Jeremy's "bachelor party" outfit. I don't even find shorts comfortable, so if I were Jinger and gonna change up my wardrobe, that's not what I would personally pick. I'm pear shaped and live in the hot, hot south (it was 83 degrees f today in TN, but will likely snow on Saturday, go figure). When I get sweaty and my legs rub together, shorts (especially denim) are the worst ever. But I know some weird, preppy, "fundie" couples who dress alike or ascribe to a certain style to fit in with a certain crowd. These are the same people who weren't frats of sororities at their Christian college, but what were called "social clubs" which still have Greek letters for names, for example.  Jeremy kind of has that same look.

[Kira]

I don't think wearing shorts is a FU to her parents. Just like I didn't think Derick's hair or Ben's rap were FU's.  The Duggars allowed their son to court a woman who wears pants(Marjorie wore pants throughout her courtship with Josiah) I think it's wishful thinking to believe JB is upset. Maybe Michelle doesn't like pants, but I don't think it's a big problem.

[luxfilia]

9 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

Her psychology is that since she was born, she was trained by her parents to act a certain way. She grew up and was taught to supress all thoughts and feelings. Jeremy comes along and she does a 360 toward being more normal. Did she want to wear shorts? Maybe but the underlying thing is that it because Jeremy wants it. Jinger's been trained to defer to Jeremy, Jinger emotion at Jessa's wedding was that she was not worthy. It was the saddest thing that I have ever seen. Jinger follows Jeremy as Jill has to follow Derick even though she's miserable. 

So you think Jeremy wants her to wear shorts, not that he just doesn't care one way or the other and she decided to put a pair on just because? Interesting. I think that's probably correct.

[snickerz]

Shorts is a step in the right direction. However, if you look at their hands, they both seem to be holding a thick stack of papers. They were probably passing out tracts.

[luxfilia]

15 minutes ago, Kira said:

Does anyone remember a photo of Joy wearing shorts in Central America? I could be wrong.

There are very good reasons for the pessimism of some poster. Jinger(and Alyssa) is not the first fundie to do this. I can count on one hand the number of fundies(IBLP, VF or whatever) that are skirts only. The Duggars(and Bates) are behind. I don't think I've ever seen the Duggars friend Laura, who works for IBLP, in a skirt. 

My fear is that this is enough for some people. Jinger could do something really awful and someone will say " she can't feed her kids, but she wears pants" "well at least she was sleeveless in her mugshot" . I'm not being funny I've seen those kind of comments. Jeremy said women can wear pants but they shouldn't tempt men and FJ was in love. These comments are made by the same people who somehow get surprised that people like Cathy Dillard can be fundie(In the real world we see people like her all the time sprouting their awful beliefs and worst). Do we care about their beliefs or do  we care about what they wear and what they name their children. I've seen pants wearing fundies "train" their children. 

 

I'm happy I came to FJ when I did. I got to follow so many families and see the all kinds of fundies. I think it's great when fundie kids make their own decisions, but I've seen this lead to nothing substantial so many times. Also , I stand by what I said a few months ago. I predict the Duggars women will start wearing pants etc. I don't know when, but I don't expect them to be skirts only for long. I wouldn't be surprised if they wear pants in private.

 

 

I don't share that fear, but perhaps I too should have less faith in the intelligence of my fellow discussion buddies. Haha, just kidding, but I just don't it's likely anyone who takes to the time to wade through and follow this discussion (or even a page of it) is that senseless. Now that I typed that out, I realized I'm probably wrong, though. I do think people are often very sarcastic, though, and maybe sometimes some readers here take sarcasm literally. But then I was never surprised that Cathy Dillard has the views and personality she does. I guess I grew up around so many people like this and have done so much reading and research elsewhere (and also FJ lurking for years--definitely not just the TV fundies), that t I assume everyone else here has a similar background as well. I guess that's not always the case.

Even though it won't mean anything has changed if all the Duggar women start wearing pants, as you predict, it will be weird to suddenly see them all in pants. Kind of like when we look back at the frumper days and then look at them now. It's worth discussing, not because it means progress, but because it says something about their approach, motivation, and how they are marketing themselves at the time.

[calimojo]

@luxfilia  I don't think you missed much.  Some people were commenting like that, but I don't think they literally believed she has broken from fundamentalism.  It was just a comment. 

 

And, I do just want to say something here,  Not related to Fundamentalism, but just related to normal human behavior, particularly in married couples.  It is pretty normal for couples to influence each other.  Jeremy was not raised in the same fundie way that Jinger was.  Even his dad's sermon at the wedding showed a very different tone than we have heard at the others.  It is clear to me that Jeremy's dad has a more 'equal' view of marriage than JB and the Gothardites have.  He probably is more complimentarian than full out patriarchal. 

 

Jeremy may have encouraged jinger,  But do any of us really believe he told her "I order you to wear shorts"?  Or "Stop wearing jean skirts and long dresses"? 

 

I doubt it.  Where I think Jeremy is 'controlling' is in his tendency to mansplain and view himself as intellectually superior to Jinger.  Jinger is naive, and not used to life outside of the TTH.  I think it would be almost necessary for Jeremy to guide her at this point because she was very sheltered.   

[yeahtotally]

So, I may be reading a tad too much into this photo... but if this was a picture of them both wearing shorts maybe hiking or doing something a little more physical, I would be more inclined to think that Jeremy suggested she dress more appropriate for the activity.

Someone mentioned earlier that they MAY have been handing out information about their church and thus representing the church- well I think it's a very good sign that Jinger is in fact wearing shorts and gasp showing her knees.  

Could you imagine Jana or Joy or even Jessa wearing shorts in public representing their church? 

Again, all speculation that the Vuolos were actually handing out information about Jeremy's parish...

[Mela99]

2 hours ago, MargaretElliott said:

I do wonder what Jimboob and Ofboob think of this. Are they scandalized? Or are they fine with it, because her new headship approves? As long as a woman is submitting and doing what the man in her life says, everything's hunky-dory 

I bet Jing is getting some passive aggressive texts. 

[luxfilia]

3 minutes ago, yeahtotally said:

So, I may be reading a tad too much into this photo... but if this was a picture of them both wearing shorts maybe hiking or doing something a little more physical, I would be more inclined to think that Jeremy suggested she dress more appropriate for the activity.

Someone mentioned earlier that they MAY have been handing out information about their church and thus representing the church- well I think it's a very good sign that Jinger is in fact wearing shorts and gasp showing her knees.  

Could you imagine Jana or Joy or even Jessa wearing shorts in public representing their church? 

Again, all speculation that the Vuolos were actually handing out information about Jeremy's parish...

Actually, I CAN see any of the mentioned sisters wearing shorts like that. It wouldn't shock me. But it would be something new for them.

[calimojo]

7 minutes ago, Kira said:

I don't think wearing shorts is a FU to her parents. Just like I didn't think Derick's hair or Ben's rap were FU's.  The Duggars allowed their son to court a woman who wears pants(Marjorie wore pants throughout her courtship with Josiah) I think it's wishful thinking to believe JB is upset. Maybe Michelle doesn't like pants, but I don't think it's a big problem.

I didn't say it was an FU, I said that in my mind I want to believe that it was.  It amuses me to think that Jinger was sticking it to her parents because I really dislike them.  I am sure she gave way less thought to wearing a pair of shorts than we have given to all the reasons why and the implications of said shorts. 

 

It was probably a thing like

Jeremy: Let's go shopping.  Oh those would look cute on you?

Jinger:  You think?  Well, let me try them on

Jeremy:  you look great babe

Jinger: thanks baaabe

 

And that was that. 

 

Then we see the picture and 20 pages later we are still debating if she had an agenda with those shorts; Is jeremy an evil shorts forcer, or did she just decide to go for a new look. 

But rest assured,  I think it is pretty likely that Jinger and Jeremy have not ventured too far from fundamentalist bullshit

[PumaLover]

My earlier excitement about her possibly being "free" was somewhat sarcastic. I was at work and on my phone and couldn't write much.

I have been watching the Duggars since the beginning and have always had a horrific fascination with them. My ex and his family were what I would consider fundie lite. I hated the evangelical/judgmental lifestyle they had and would regularly argue with them. (I even used to listen to Answers in Genesis *shudder*). When I finally got some money I got the hell out of there. And then I started following the Duggars.

JInge was always my favorite. I loved her personality and expressions way back in the time of 17KAC and always had hopes that she would somehow become her own person and break free. I really, really wanted her to somehow move out, wear pants, have a job, use birth control, that sort of thing. It was all wishful thinking. 

It's still wishful thinking. I just saw her in shorts and was hopeful that maybe, possibly she was becoming less fundie, and finding more of herself, at least as much as she's allowed to. I love that she's so far away from JB & M. I have been wondering what their thoughts on her showing her shoulders and now wearing shorts are. Are they disappointed? Do they not care?

These things are why I don't sleep at night.

[Carm_88]

So you think Jeremy wants her to wear shorts, not that he just doesn't care one way or the other and she decided to put a pair on just because? Interesting. I think that's probably correct.

I think Jeremy is very concerned with his image. He seems to be a bit of a control freak to me, so no I don't think h forced Jinger into shorts. I do, however, think that he has a big say in her wardrobe.